The math behind the farm

2

Comments

  • EricSEricS Member Posts: 23
    Numbers may not lie, but they're being abused a bit in this thread.

    Yes, it takes two months for the increased amount that a lvl 8 farm earns to pay for the cost of upgrading a lvl 7 farm to a lvl 8 farm, and for that reason, I prioritize lvl 8 farms very low. However, that does not mean that you're two months behind where you would have been if you hadn't upgraded the farm. It also doesn't mean that upgrading four farms means it would take eight months for them to pay for themselves, which isn't stated, but it is implied above.

    If you've got four farms and you don't overflow their storage, it takes just under 98 hours to pay for a lvl 8 upgrade just from the lvl 7 farms. So even if you upgrade all four farms, you're looking at being behind by less than 18 days (17 days worth of production used, and 20 hours of production lost while the farms upgrades), even without considering the fact that the first farm you upgrade will be generating more supplies well before the 18 days have passed.

    So yes, while I do agree that prioritizing the lvl 8 farm is a bad idea, it's not as bad as is being claimed here.
  • SoyevSoyev Member Posts: 130
    Radio tent first! There's no point having a maxed out training ground if your radio is bringing you max level 12 recruits.

    Agree about the farms tho. You get supplies much faster with grind missions. I only upgraded farms and tents when it was the most BP for the least supply cost to level up
  • zosonzoson Member Posts: 2,216
    Your analysis is flawed in a few ways EricS.

    1. There are five farms, not four.
    2. You cannot consider the earnings that would have been had anyway at level 7. You would have had those resources anyway. You have to look at the raw benefit from just the added resources - 200 per hour.
    3. The resources you're gaining back to pay for each farm could be going toward other upgrades, immediately, so you have to consider the time not just to pay off the farms themselves, but the time lost regenerating ketchup AFTER all the upgrades are completed to earn that >2.1 million ketchup you would have already spent on upgrading other buildings.

    This is about entire time spent to reach level 15, and getting the farms to level 8 IS just that bad.
  • DreadDread Member Posts: 450
    @EricS
    the whole argument was how long the farms take to pay for themselves... not how fast you can generate the food to pay for it.
    the math is sound an so is the logic.

    like @zoson said, you're counting resources you would have had regardless, not the gained benefit from the upgrade compared to the cost.

    the numbers don't lie, regardless of opinion of what is a "good idea" or "not that bad". Those things are irrelevant to the discussion regarding the numbers and cost/benefit ratio.
    As I witness the death of innocence... A predator feeding on its creation.
    Through the fallout of this hallucination, I walked into darkness.
    I must not surrender my god to anyone, or this body will become carrion.
    One step closer to my fate. One step closer to my grave.
  • TWDTWD Member Posts: 20
    zoson said:

    If your main goal is to get survivors to level 15 ASAP, then you should stop leveling your farms at 7. Leveling them from 7 to 8 will delay you being able to get level 15 survivors by over a month.

    As we have discussed in many previous threads, survivor level is the most important thing for progression of stars and completing the newer content. So if we're talking raw min/maxing and best use of your resources in this context, there is no choice or personal preference. It's a solid fact that you're wasting time by leveling your farms beyond level 7 until AFTER you have a level 14 TG.

    But hey, if you want to shoot yourself in the foot and slow down your progression, that is your own prerogative.

    You start your post with "If your main goal is" and then say "there is no choice or personal preference"

    Isn't a "main goal" something that is EXACTLY supposed to be a personal choice?

    You just can't base your argument around an assumption that everyone plays this game for the same goal.

    Some people aren't hardcore players who need to RUSH to get to a specific level ASAP. I personally only take out my phone to play this game once in a while between breaks for a mission or two. I much prefer knowing that I am collecting a few extra thousand tomatoes even when my phone is away and I'm not playing. But that's just me. However, I don't go and assume that everyone plays this game for the same reason and tell them that they're wasting their time.
    zoson
  • TWDTWD Member Posts: 20
    edited January 2016
    Also, has anyone done the math for how many hours in total it takes to upgrade your council, training ground and workshop to max level (+ hours required to collect enough Building Points for next council upgrade), solely from collecting farm supplies, without playing any mission at all?

    From what I understand, if I want to upgrade my survivors to Level 13, I first need to upgrade my training grounds to Level 12, and before I do so, I need to upgrade my Council to Level 12, and before I do so, I need to upgrade several buildings in my camp to reach Player level 29.

    I assume the same process will need to be followed until I reach level 15.

    So how many hours will that take in total?
    zoson
  • zosonzoson Member Posts: 2,216
    Try to keep up, we've already discussed that there is no improvement in time from upgrading the farms, you LOSE MONTHS.

    Even with multiple people slapping you across the face with the facts, you just want to keep aruging. Don't be surprised if you start getting ignored though. This will be my last time ever responding to one of your posts.

    Again, if you want to shoot yourself in the foot and ignore the good advice being given here, that's your own prerogative.
  • TWDTWD Member Posts: 20
    edited January 2016
    zoson said:

    Try to keep up, we've already discussed that there is no improvement in time from upgrading the farms, you LOSE MONTHS.

    Even with multiple people slapping you across the face with the facts, you just want to keep aruging. Don't be surprised if you start getting ignored though. This will be my last time ever responding to one of your posts.

    Again, if you want to shoot yourself in the foot and ignore the good advice being given here, that's your own prerogative.

    Nobody has presented any FACTS in regards to how many hours it takes to actually reach survivors level 15, the only arguments that keep coming up is how long it takes for farm upgrades to get a return of investment.

    There has been absolutely NO comparison done whatsoever. Where in any of the previous post, has anyone ever mentioned how long it really takes to bring your Council + Training Grounds to Level 14?
  • EricSEricS Member Posts: 23
    zoson said:

    Your analysis is flawed in a few ways EricS.

    Then explain your math. Here's my issues with what you've said so far:
    zoson said:

    There are five farms, not four.

    Irrelevant for purposes of this discussion, as it means you'd have 25% more income to pay for 25% more cost, assuming you're ignoring supplies income from other sources. Also, I'm pretty sure that you unlock the possibility to upgrade to a lvl 8 farm before you unlock the option for a fifth farm, so either case is possible.
    zoson said:

    You have to look at the raw benefit from just the added resources - 200 per hour.

    While it doesn't have a significant effect on how far behind you are when you're done upgrading, it's 300 per hour, not 200.
    zoson said:

    This is about entire time spent to reach level 15, and getting the farms to level 8 IS just that bad.

    Let's do the math, and keep it simple so that everyone can follow it and it will be more obvious if we're looking at different assumptions. I'll assume 5 farms and that you collect once an hour. Supplies difference is how far you're behind, which is equal to the amount you've spent plus the amount you've lost, minus the extra supplies you've earned. Time difference is how long it would take 5 level 7 farms to create the deficit.
    HourEventSuppliesSupplies differencetime difference
    0You start saving up for your first upgrade. At 5500 supplies per hour, 430000 supplies will take 78.18 hours.000
    79You do your first upgrade. For the next 20 hours, you only have income from 4 farms.4500-430000-79 hours
    99First upgrade complete, you start saving for the second upgrade, which will take slightly less time than the last one since you have 20 hours of 4 farms already banked and an extra 300 supplies an hour.92500-452000-82.2 hours
    158You do your second upgrade, reduced income for 20 hours1100-867900-158 hours
    178Second upgrade complete, start saving for the third95100-883900-161 hours
    233You do your third upgrade...5500-1276000-232 hours
    253Third upgrade complete, start saving for the fourth105500-1286000-234 hours
    304You do your fourth upgrade...4500-1667500-304 hours
    324Fourth upgrade complete, start saving for the fifth.110500-1671500-304 hours
    372You do your fifth upgrade. Note that since four lvl 8 farms outproduce 5 lvl 7 farms, you'll never be farther behind than you are right after this purchase.4600-2046000-372 hours
    392Final farm finished.116600-2039400-371 hours
    In the real world, you'll probably take an extra day or so from not starting upgrades while you're sleeping, but that's less than 17 days to do the upgrades, and you're now earning supplies faster than you were before, so you can't fall farther behind. Yes, it's going to take almost another 57 days for the upgrades to pay for themselves. But unless you're doing things seriously suboptimally, you're not going to push back any buildings by a month as you claimed.

    I really should have taken the time to do that as a spreadsheet, doing the math mixed between calculator and in the head left room for minor errors.
  • TWDTWD Member Posts: 20
    edited January 2016
    If you want to use math to convince people, then go the entire way and actually show a fair comparison with all relevant factors included. You can't just present HALF of the facts and decide to jump to conclusions.

    For those who really want to give it a try, here are some things to consider:

    - How many tomatoes does it take for each building to upgrade to its next level?
    - How many hours does it take to collect enough tomatoes to upgrade each of those buildings?
    - How many hours does it take to perform each of those upgrades?
    - How many buildings need to be upgraded to collect enough Building Points to reach the next Player Level in order to unlock the next Council upgrade?

    Do this math until you reach Max out every building upgrades then tell us how many hours that will take in total?

    Do that math from a farm harvest point of view only, then from a farm harvest + mission rewards point of view

    Then run a comparison between keeping your farms at level 7 and level 8

    You will also be able to know how many Missions you need to play (play hours vs idle hours)

    That's the only real way you will be able to make a fair statement about what is considered a waste of time or not.
    zosonstevie05
  • TWDTWD Member Posts: 20
    edited January 2016
    @EricS
    Let's also not forget that in order to have 5 farm plots, your Council needs to be at level 13.

    Farms are available to be upgraded to Level 8 since Council Level 11.

    In order to bring Council from Level 11 to Level 13, we need to know how many buildings need to be upgraded to collect enough BP as well, and how long it takes to collect Tomatoes for each of those upgrades, as long as the time it takes to perform those upgrades.

    Another MAJOR factor to consider is how many hours do people need to play to collect Mission rewards that will contribute to their next upgrade.

    Until we gather all information and put them up in a fair comparison, it's just ridiculous to try to use numbers to support any claim.
    stevie05
  • TWDTWD Member Posts: 20
    Another note:

    If you upgrade your farms while your Council is at Level 11, it takes only 15 hours to upgrade a farm from Level 7 to Level 8, not 20 hours.
  • zosonzoson Member Posts: 2,216
    @EricS You CANNOT count ANY supplies you would earn during the upgrade process since you would *EARN THOSE SUPPLIES ANYWAY* if you were not upgrading your farms. The ONLY supplies you can consider are those you would earn in addition. 200 vs 300 supplies per hour still doesn't even put a dent in the fact that you're wasting >2.1 million supplies, are delayed for almost a month just from doing the upgrades, and then AGAIN as I have already stated, you now have to earn back ALL of those supplies based only on the difference. That is, you've spent all the time and >2.1 million supplies over those 24 days. THEN you have to re-earn >2.1 million supplies to catch up to where you would be if you had just upgraded your TG and other buildings.

    This is actually the THIRD thread on this topic. It's been beaten to death, and people have already tried and completely failed with your argument in the other threads.
    stevie05
  • EricSEricS Member Posts: 23
    TWD said:

    Until we gather all information and put them up in a fair comparison, it's just ridiculous to try to use numbers to support any claim.

    I readily admit that this really only covers the specific case. I was mainly trying to show that some of the statements here are overstating how bad the lvl 8 upgrade is even without looking into the larger view, not actually making a judgement on how good/bad the upgrade itself is.

    Basically, if you're going to be spending 10M farm-generated supplies or more to max out your TG (I don't know how expensive the upgrades get, I'm not even close to capped yet), then the lvl 8 farm upgrades are worth it, even from the point of view of "maxing out the TG is all that matters." If it's less than that, then the lvl 8 farms are only worth it in that point of view if the building points from them allow you to skip other upgrades and other potential factors that I haven't gone into.
  • TWDTWD Member Posts: 20
    Some facts that people always leave out:

    - You can't max out your Training Grounds unless you max out your Council first, as it is the key to unlock your TG upgrade.
    - You can't max out your Council unless you upgrade other buildings first, as you need BP to unlock your next Council upgrade.
    - Each building upgrade becomes more expensive, and takes longer hours to upgrade after each level.
    - You don't get 5 Farm Plots until you reach Council Level 13.
    - Level 8 farm upgrades only take 15 hours at Council Level 11.
    - A farm is the only building that actually pays itself back over time. Therefore, it's the only one that counts as an investment. All other upgrades are expenses and will never give any return.
    - Nobody here has ever done any math to know how many hours and tomatoes it really takes to max out their TG starting from Council Level 11, which is when Farm upgrade to Level 8 gets unlocked.

    A topic beaten to death... by people who only do half of the math and only conveniently use the numbers that please them, ignoring all other factors that contribute to major discrepancies in the final result.
  • EricSEricS Member Posts: 23
    zoson said:

    @EricS You CANNOT count ANY supplies you would earn during the upgrade process since you would *EARN THOSE SUPPLIES ANYWAY* if you were not upgrading your farms.

    That fourth column tells you exactly how many supplies behind I am (it's literally how many supplies 5 lvl 7 farms would have generated by that hour minus how many supplies I have on hand), so that's how I account for what supplies I would have earned if I hadn't upgraded.

    Look at it this way. If you want to upgrade something for 132000 supplies, doing that without upgrading would take 24 hours of production from 5 lvl 7 farms.

    If you upgrade the farm, that eats your production for a little over 16 days, at which point you'd save up for the upgrade in the next 19 hours. So, you buy the upgrade just over 16 days later than you would have if you hadn't upgraded. Very simple, you're not a month behind, you're less than 17 days behind. It's quite simple, and no amount of accounting is going to change that.
  • TWDTWD Member Posts: 20
    EricS said:

    Basically, if you're going to be spending 10M farm-generated supplies or more to max out your TG (I don't know how expensive the upgrades get, I'm not even close to capped yet), then the lvl 8 farm upgrades are worth it, even from the point of view of "maxing out the TG is all that matters." If it's less than that, then the lvl 8 farms are only worth it in that point of view if the building points from them allow you to skip other upgrades and other potential factors that I haven't gone into.

    My point exactly. Most people only look at the ~2M supplies and number of days invested on the farm upgrade to claim that it's a "waste" of time. But they never mention about how many days it takes and how much supply is needed to max out their TG.
  • DreadDread Member Posts: 450
    This whole topic was started asking for the "math behind the farm"
    The point trying to be made, which 99% of the readers seem to understand, is how long it takes for your investment to pay off.

    All this other nonsense is so irrelevant to the original point that this thread has spiraled into an abyss of convoluted nonsense and is beyond redemption. lol

    The math problem to get the answer about investment : payoff is a simple one and doesn't require a spreadsheet or long calculus equation to get the answer.

    Of course you can do what you want and enjoy the game as you please, nobody ever said otherwise... but you will never be able to call an apple an orange enough times to make it an orange.

    An apple will always be an apple.
    As I witness the death of innocence... A predator feeding on its creation.
    Through the fallout of this hallucination, I walked into darkness.
    I must not surrender my god to anyone, or this body will become carrion.
    One step closer to my fate. One step closer to my grave.
  • LanceLance Member Posts: 568
    Yes my original was about, how long it take for lv X farm to pay off.

    Many thanks to ppl who done maths, and shared their result.
    I stopped at farm lv6, and my council lv 13 is now under construction. :p

    I'm cooking a beginner guide at the wiki, but it is not done yet.
  • Neil_JNeil_J Member Posts: 1,873
    Or as someone once said:
    "There are lies, damned lies, and then there are statistics".....
    “You never know how strong you are until being strong is your only option.” (Bob Marley)
  • TWDTWD Member Posts: 20
    edited January 2016
    Dread said:

    This whole topic was started asking for the "math behind the farm"
    The point trying to be made, which 99% of the readers seem to understand, is how long it takes for your investment to pay off.

    All this other nonsense is so irrelevant to the original point that this thread has spiraled into an abyss of convoluted nonsense and is beyond redemption. lol

    The math problem to get the answer about investment : payoff is a simple one and doesn't require a spreadsheet or long calculus equation to get the answer.

    Of course you can do what you want and enjoy the game as you please, nobody ever said otherwise... but you will never be able to call an apple an orange enough times to make it an orange.

    An apple will always be an apple.

    The original topic is also a two-part question, how long it takes for the investment to pay off, as well as at what level one should stop upgrading.

    While the first part of the question was an easy math and has already been answered, the second one requires more than just simple math, which is what has been the main point of the on-going debate. Some of us are simply pointing out the obvious missing factors in the numbers people are using to support their arguments.

    To understand whether an investment is worth it, you MUST know what the goal is first. Once the goal has been established, you then evaluate what are the different ways to achieve that goal and compare them against each other to know which one will be the better option. Without knowing any of that information, any argument made is simply an opinion, or a guess, but definitely not a fact.

    While there might be quite a bit of data to collect in order to get the proper evaluations, the theory itself shouldn't be that hard to grasp. It's a basic concept anyone who studies finance should understand. And this goes beyond this simple video game. Understanding how finance works is useful in real life as well.

    At the end of the day, everyone is free to do whatever they want, which is what I think most people had already agreed on.
  • JazzJazz Member Posts: 125
    So confused. Ok, I finished upgrading counxil level 13, upgraded the training grounds, and the workshop is finishing up in a few hours. I didn't upgrade the farms first because for each one there's only a 200 increase. So if one were to upgrade all 5 farms first, they would only be getting 1,000 extra tomatoes an hour or 10,000 extra in 10 hours but i do episode 12s missions all the time and you get 6500 tomatoes from one mission. (all 5 level 8 farms give you a total of 70,000 in 10 hours - and if all 5 farms upgrade to level 9, you get 200 supplies each, so only 10,000 extra in 10 hours. Then the max output would be 80,000 in 10 hours - but upgrading each costs 860, so....that's just poor strategy.


    Anyone know what the increase in production is suppose to be when you upgrade one farm to level 10??
  • TWDTWD Member Posts: 20
    edited January 2016
    Jazz said:

    So confused. Ok, I finished upgrading counxil level 13, upgraded the training grounds, and the workshop is finishing up in a few hours. I didn't upgrade the farms first because for each one there's only a 200 increase. So if one were to upgrade all 5 farms first, they would only be getting 1,000 extra tomatoes an hour or 10,000 extra in 10 hours but i do episode 12s missions all the time and you get 6500 tomatoes from one mission. (all 5 level 8 farms give you a total of 70,000 in 10 hours - and if all 5 farms upgrade to level 9, you get 200 supplies each, so only 10,000 extra in 10 hours. Then the max output would be 80,000 in 10 hours - but upgrading each costs 860, so....that's just poor strategy.





    Anyone know what the increase in production is suppose to be when you upgrade one farm to level 10??

    A lot has to do with WHEN you decide to perform your upgrade.

    The later you wait, the later you will see your return, and you might have reached your goal before you actually see your return. At Council Level 13, you probably aren't that far from the goal you've set yourself (I assume, maxing out all other buildings)

    As a reference, the upgrade for Farm Level 8 was available way before you reached Council 13, and costed 430K + only took 15 hours to upgrade. At that level, you also only had 4 farm plots in total, but still many building upgrades away from reaching your goal.

    If you are almost near your goal and are only 2-3 upgrades away from it, then there's no point in upgrading your farms first since you're almost there anyways. But if you are at least 10 Million supplies and several months away from your goal, then a little set back will be worth it in the long run. If the game developers decide to unlock new levels that go way beyond the current cap, it would make even more sense to upgrade early. Timing is very crucial.

    Like most investment, you need to evaluate what other options are available and how much each of them would cost, as well as when each of them will give you the proper return vs your end goal. Most people stopped their math once they see that it will take several weeks to get their return, because they assume that they will reach their goal sooner without upgrading. But they haven't actually done any real comparison to know whether their guesses are accurate or not. Many people also over-compensate by playing the games for longer hours every day in order to reach their goal sooner.
    stevie05
  • EricSEricS Member Posts: 23
    Dread said:

    The point trying to be made, which 99% of the readers seem to understand, is how long it takes for your investment to pay off.

    Yes, and I understand that. It takes about two months for the investment to pay off from the moment you do the upgrade, assuming you waste no production, and at the current pacing of the game, I think you should be at the level cap before then. If you're playing in such a way that it will take you more than two months to reach the level cap then there is room for more analysis, but it's so situational that the person would have to do the analysis for themselves.

    And no, short of the devs lowering the cost of the upgrade or increasing the boost that a level 8 farm has, nothing is going to make the farm pay for itself any faster, as any other source of supplies would be there whether or not the upgrade takes place.

    However, you made a statement that makes it sound like it's worse than it actually is, and zoson stated a "fact" that is worse than it actually is. That's the two things I was trying to clear up. While it's true that I don't think the lvl 8 farm is worth upgrading before anything else at this time, that won't always be the case. If they continue adding levels to buildings, there will come a time when new players (not us) that have just unlocked the ability to upgrade a farm plot to lvl 8 are looking at taking another 2.5 or more months to reach the level cap,, and in that situation, the lvl 8 farm can pay for itself before they'd reach the level cap.
    Dread said:

    430,000/300=1433.3 hours (2 months) to recoup from a single upgrade. this isn't even counting the time it takes for the upgrade to finish... but when you're talking about 2 months for each plot.. who cares about another 20 hours. lol

    This is your misleading statement. It's not linearly additive, which is what this statement implies. 74 days to earn the supplies to do all five upgrades, upgrade the farms, and have them pay for themselves. Each farm pays for itself, and that can happen concurrently.
    zoson said:

    Leveling them from 7 to 8 will delay you being able to get level 15 survivors by over a month.

    This is the wrong statement that I mentioned. Upgrading all 5 farms sets you back 17 days as shown above, not more than a month. You are behind for over a month, which may be what @zoson was thinking, but you're only behind by more than 17 days if you do it inefficiently.

    The only reason I bother to point this out is that even if your conclusion is right, if your related arguments are flawed, then that can make the final conclusion look flawed to anyone that hasn't done the math for themselves.

    tldr: The level 8 farm upgrade is not worth doing before level capping your training grounds at this time if you're doing things efficiently, and I don't think there's room to dispute that. However, some of the statements made about just how bad the upgrade is are wrong or misleading.
  • zosonzoson Member Posts: 2,216
    Flat wrong. You have to consider the time it would take to earn back the supplies you wasted on upgrading the farms, not just the time it takes to upgrade the farms themselves. Not to mention you incorrectly factored in the supplies you would be earning ANYWAY if you didn't upgrade your farms.

    Your entire premise is flawed.
  • EricSEricS Member Posts: 23
    zoson said:

    Your entire premise is flawed.

    No, you're still confusing how far you are behind with how long it takes you to catch up. The supplies the farms generate while catching up get spent on other things, they don't simply go away because you haven't caught up yet.
  • zosonzoson Member Posts: 2,216
    Really, you're going to keep pretending you're earning 1100 supplies that you're not actually earning at all? I need not say more because everyone can see right through your lies.
  • EricSEricS Member Posts: 23
    The fact that a lvl 7 farm generates 1100 supplies an hour doesn't change the fact that a lvl 8 farm generates 1400 an hour. Yes, that's only 300 an hour more, which means that only that 300 supplies count towards the lvl 8 farm paying for itself, but the full 1400 supplies can be spent on other buildings, regardless of whether or not the lvl 8 farm has paid for itself yet. That's pretty straight forward.
  • TWDTWD Member Posts: 20
    edited January 2016
    It will take about 2 months for 4 farm plot upgrades to catch up. Whether those 2 months investment are worth it or not all depends on how far you are from reaching your goal as well as how often you play the game.

    That question can only be answered by each person's individual goal and playing style, which will determine if they will reach their goal sooner or later than 2 months, starting from Council Level 11, and also assuming that the game doesn't unlock higher levels in the future.

    The average player that logs in every now and then to collect their supplies and play a game or two will definitely take several months to max out their survivors, in which case those 2 months set back is nothing compared to how long it will take them to beat the game. The hardcore gamer who makes youtube videos of himself playing video games will probably max out in a matter of days, and will tell you that 2 months is way too long and a waste of time.

    To each their own, but anyone who follows this thread should not be confused by those who use speculations as facts.
  • DreadDread Member Posts: 450
    @EricS
    Dread said:

    In the longest of long runs, it will pay off and make you more, but when you need to upgrade other things to progress, you will be setting yourself back a long long time.

    I said this, which means i wasn't misleading anything.
    cherry picking a tiny section of something i said and quoting it out of context doesn't validate your argument. Especially since your argument itself is out of context.

    you keep counting supplies, millions of supplies, that you could have spent elsewhere and would have regardless of a farm upgrade or not.
    You also aren't counting all the time it would take to generate the mass amounts of supplies to upgrade all farms.
    if you spend all this on farms instead of upgrades to your survivors via the training grounds/workshop/council, you will be setting yourself back so far that it is practically never a good investment at that point.

    Unless the only thing you do is log in every day, twice a day, to do absolutely nothing except click your farms, then this would never be a good investment when astronomically better investments exist. and who the hell would "play" that way? this isn't FarmVille.

    With the exception of spending gold on your farms rather than supplies, you could be several levels higher, do way more challenges, get way better rewards, and not sit idle waiting for your investment to pay off.

    All these other factors you keep mentioning aren't in play, but if you want to add all the other methods of gaining supplies, as well as supplies you would have had with or without the upgrade... then you should also count all the "lost" supplies you would have earned from higher challenges and levels you could have done had you been upgraded to a higher level.

    of course it will pay off eventually, that was never in question and was never the point.

    I don't mind debating strategies... but honestly, it's like arguing with a wall because you keep making "points" that don't even apply to the "argument".
    It's frustrating to read, especially when accusations of "misleading people" get directed at me.
    As I witness the death of innocence... A predator feeding on its creation.
    Through the fallout of this hallucination, I walked into darkness.
    I must not surrender my god to anyone, or this body will become carrion.
    One step closer to my fate. One step closer to my grave.
    zoson
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