Super Cycle & Changes to Outposts Matchmaking - Official Discussion Thread

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  • AmigaAmiga Member Posts: 3,770
    I like it ;)
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    TeeceezyrgerkmanGrimGaelcplDeadShotAnnoyedasfSteelemanTJS
  • rgerkmanrgerkman Member Posts: 2,465
    @Teeceezy
    Sorry if I read this wrong but when does the reduction for Walker Capture & Upgrade happen? On Wed? Or right now?
    If it's now.. there is no change in my Pit
    There Are No Such Things As Stupid Questions.!!
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    Rhonda
  • TeeceezyTeeceezy Staff Posts: 3,579
    Thanks for asking @rgerkman! Super Cycle starts on Wednesday, when the upgrade and capture costs will be reduced.
  • rgerkmanrgerkman Member Posts: 2,465
    edited September 2016
    Ok Thank you!!
    I read it as go now & start benefiting from reduction. Thanks for Clarification!! :blush:

    & Awesome Stuff!!
    I look forward to trying Outpost again!!!
    There Are No Such Things As Stupid Questions.!!
    There Are However.. Plenty of Stupid Answers!!

    Rhonda
    MizTyAmiga
  • MadPuppyMadPuppy Member Posts: 2,831
    Will the inluence lost for being raided also double?

    Will the matchmaking actually be different, of will we just be shown a lot less about the match that is being made?
    (This is because even the easiest opponents put me in hospital, I'm that poor a strategist)
    MizTy
  • shabbashabba Member Posts: 452
    @Teeceezy wednesday is 21/9 and not 19/9 (that is today)
  • TeeceezyTeeceezy Staff Posts: 3,579
    @shabba Thanks!
  • PoppyPoppy Member Posts: 1,146
    edited September 2016
    Skip wont be a loss if your above 3k inf every outpost is rural double sand bags everytime anyhow. One of the reason I'm intentionally de levling my inf its boring as hell running the map everytime plus the cycle awards just arnt worth it.

    Also lowing walker pit cost etc again an odd one as with the change to threat spawn your better off not leveling or increasing you walker defences to stop the attackers building up their charge attacks. Shouldnt be like that of course but tgats one of the things that wasnt thought of when they made the change.
    Shut_UpMajjaquiLadyAquilaDeadBeatMusatCaptainslayer
  • rgerkmanrgerkman Member Posts: 2,465
    edited September 2016
    One more quick question @Teeceezy :blush:

    Does reduction include Upgrading actual Pit or just what's inside?

    I'm guessing No.. but figured why not ask :wink:
    There Are No Such Things As Stupid Questions.!!
    There Are However.. Plenty of Stupid Answers!!

    Rhonda
  • AmigaAmiga Member Posts: 3,770
    edited September 2016
    Crucial change to Outpost ;) If I will only see more often other maps than Rural Fields @Teeceezy then I would be happy even more ;)
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    rgerkmanDLichMajjaquiInvaderLadyAquila
  • PoppyPoppy Member Posts: 1,146
    @Shut_Up All valid points

    I dont go above 3k inf tbh as the games coded the higher you go tge less you get.

    2999inf you get 20-32 inf per win soon as 3k is reached it drops to 6-12 inf and everyones in rural double bags which is such a broken map with all the other broken factors to consider to its not worth the effort.
    Shut_UpVudnikLadyAquilaAnnette578
  • Shut_UpShut_Up Member Posts: 2,295
    edited September 2016
    Yeah @Poppy used to be a fixture on the leaderboard for the first 2 months until they hit you with the rollback too. Me and you both lost about 2000 influence.

    You haven't missed much it's been a total pain in the ass to get my name up there and gratify my ego!
    rgerkmanMizTyAnnette578
  • DLichDLich Member Posts: 5,562
    edited September 2016
    I understand why you want to remove the skip button by having us go to the selection screen but if you aren't planning to remove the "x" on that screen can't we just close it and reselect another opponent?

    Or does hitting the "10 Raid" button in the Attack Outpost screen automatically bring me into a loop where i'm forced to battle? I guess we'll find out when it goes live, but i'm not too happy about not being able to choose my opponent (but doesn't seem like a big deal if I can just hit the x and search again although inconvenient)



    We pay 10 TG's to "search" another opponent anyway.

    One more thing (which might make the above irrelevant anyway). Will we see the type of map the opponent has? Rural, Lake, Warehouse etc... I typically skip over Rural since everyone who has rural typically has the exact same map and it's super boring. If typically ignore walker strength, lvl's of opponents and only focus on the type of map and skip rural almost everytime since whenevery you battle rural it's like the same map everytime.

    ** additionally I think I answered my own question. If were brought directly to this screen it doesn't show the type of map they have so voila no more choosing outpost map of opponent.

    Looks like I'll only be playing on unlimited gas so if I get rural I'll exit. Great job

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  • QB34QB34 Member Posts: 60
    I'm going to reserve my judgement on this until it goes live in hopes and prayers that the matchmaking is decent. Right now I go thru at least 10-12 level 18 & 19 defenders to find one the same level as me that I can compete against. If I read correctly you can't do this anymore and have to fight the first random match generated. If this plays out the way I think it will you guys completely and totally shit the bed on this change
    Haiyanreferee4SPRABGrok
  • Shut_UpShut_Up Member Posts: 2,295
    edited September 2016
    I'm going to apologize ahead of time for the negative attitude but all the bugs have made me this way so I've got to ask. Is this screen shot of this end of mission summary on a CHALLENGE mission a sign of an impending bug since it says complete mission in 7 turns which is associated with raids?

    Edit: With reports coming in from around the globe it looks like it isn't a bug but an unannounced change no one asked for.
    JackBauerreferee4WallStreet
  • GrimGaelGrimGael Member Posts: 1,410
    Well, it's been fun raiding, but it looks like the degradation process has begun. I built an outpost finally with the last update, because it seemed like I finally had nothing to lose. Glad you haven't messed that up completely. I've had a lot of fun with it, after my own fashion, and it was a fresh dimension to explore.
    I have a large stable of survivors over a 3 level spread. I use them to do the opposite of finding an easy victim, if the opponent is fielding sub-level defence, I attack with sub-level survivors. No more.
    Well, raiding has taken up a lot of game time apparently better spent on supply runs.
    I always find it strange that although I am a very mediocre and mainly FTP player, I find myself typically siding with better players like @Shut_Up, the guild council, and many others. It tells me that somehow you really miss the mark for a wide cross section with many of the big changes. I don't have the same passion and investment, but I'm nodding along anyway more often than not.
    Shut_UpMajjaquiLadyAquilaAnnette578referee4DeadBeatWallStreetFester17
  • Tapatio75Tapatio75 Member Posts: 636
    Figures, now that I finally upgraded my walker to 19 they cut the costs
  • TeeceezyTeeceezy Staff Posts: 3,579
    edited September 2016
    @MadPuppy Skipping matches gives the opportunity to always choose the easiest of potential opponents - which has lead to skewed matchmaking. Now that you're not able to see your opponents survivor levels and walker strength, your matches will either be stronger or weaker than yourself - but before long will help everyone find a matchmaking rating and Influence score that, in turn, will lead to better, more suitable matches meaning more compelling PvP battles. Influence losses are not doubled.

    @rgerkman Reductions don't include the pit itself.

    Give it a chance before knocking it guys. :)
    AmigargerkmanDLichPoppyHaiyanAnnette578Jaden
  • Japes87Japes87 Member Posts: 1,399
    @Teeceezy 2 quick questions

    1. I pushed really hard to hit 4000 influence tier this cycle and it took hours and hours and many full hospitals .. by what I read , my influence will be going down to 0 on Wed?
    2. Are the increased influence tier rewards temporary or permanent?

    Thanks
  • DLichDLich Member Posts: 5,562
    If were brought to the screen above which doesn't show the type of map looks like we have no control at all over the opponent type we want.

    I'm looking forward to trying it out but not looking forward to literally having no idea or option in my opponent.

    When outposts were first introduced the forum asked for options of "easy medium and hard" opponents. The solution is to completely withdraw any type of choice in the outposts we are up against.

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  • DLichDLich Member Posts: 5,562
    I'm sure almost anyone in a zombie apocalypse would like to scout the opponent they have. I don't know anyone who would blindly go into a battle vs someone saying "there's many camps I can raid but let's pick the first one without knowing how strong they are I'm sure it'll go well" while they carry the dead body of their long friend who has been there since the apocalypse broke out.

    But I could be wrong. Maybe people will like it :lol:

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  • VudnikVudnik Member Posts: 307
    Those of us who have been playing for a VERY long time already know how this will end up. Missing "the mark" has become the norm here in most respects.

    Since my TG's have been cut in half with the new challenge format, replaced by insultingly low quantities of radios, I'm now less than able to buy the overly TG-priced items in the trade store and now have to rely on outpost raids. With what seems like a 90% rural sandbag map population, ridiculously over-powered defender capabilities, the only option left to be selective about maps, specifically for TG farming, is apparently going away. Less and less choice all the time.

    My only avenue left, considering I no longer give a whit about influence points and the leaderboard (thanks again NG), is to take whatever scene and defenders are "graciously" given, then view the defender map section. If my scout can't make it to the crate in one turn - flee. It's gonna cost 10 TG anyway and whoop-dee-doo about the points. It will only matter when I only have 10 left.

    Just waiting for the boardroom brainiacs to figure out how to nix this option too. "Gather ye rosebuds while ye may" 'cause pretty soon it will all go away.

    A raving sceptic? Yep, but I never used to be. Thanks, again, NG!
    Shut_UpDLichHaiyanMajjaquiInvaderAnnette578DeadBeat
  • PoppyPoppy Member Posts: 1,146
    Teeceezy said:

    @MadPuppy Skipping matches gives the opportunity to always choose the easiest of potential opponents - which has lead to skewed matchmaking. Now that you're not able to see your opponents survivor levels and walker strength, your matches will either be stronger or weaker than yourself - but before long will help everyone find a matchmaking rating and Influence score that, in turn, will lead to better, more suitable matches meaning more compelling PvP battles. Influence losses are not doubled.

    @rgerkman Reductions don't include the pit itself.

    Give it a chance before knocking it guys. :)

    Skewed matchmaking wont be changed, you just wont be able to see thats its skewed or have the option to avoid it. Also these massivly wonky matched raids only appeared when 2.1 got launched before thatnyou were pretty much evenly matched up. Or near enough. Now we get level 1 walkers and even bases with one defender.

    Making a video on the history of outposts and how to fix them in the next few days if anyones Interested.
    MajjaquiAnnette578p_herian
  • TeeceezyTeeceezy Staff Posts: 3,579
    Poppy said:


    Making a video on the history of outposts and how to fix them in the next few days if anyones Interested.

    Look forward to hearing your input! :)


    rgerkmanMizTyPain Walker
  • DLichDLich Member Posts: 5,562
    @Teeceezy the team selection screen doesn't show much much influence or trade goods we will attain for completing the parts of the raid.

    Will we still be able to see prior to battling how much influence, trade goods and the type of map the opponent has? Or will those become things we won't see until we actually enter the outposts.

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  • DLichDLich Member Posts: 5,562
    @Shteevie I think the community wants to enjoy outposts. It just seems that with every change there's something further disconnecting us from what we want and ultimately that's to get trade goods without spending gold. Although not exactly ever said in those words it's what everyone wants. Maximized trade goods with minimal healing times.

    In a perfect world that's what would make everyone happy. But we're not in a perfect world. We're in NG's zombie apocalypse.

    The 0/0 outposts sucked but was worth it when you found that several thousand TG one. Then that was fixed so it's standard 500/20

    We used walker strength or whatever it used to be to determine the quantity of walkers present then that was changed to make it further evasive for strategy.

    Bullet dodge. Rural same map set up.

    People can choose to play a story map it exploration map. We can choose the type of exploration. We can choose the weapons to upgrade. We can choose the layout of our camp. We can choose which challenge map we want to replay. We can choose our guild. We can choose what team we want to bring along on any of the missions mentioned above.

    But we can't choose our outpost opponent. We can't choose the amount of TG's we get. We can't choose the influence we receive. We had limited choices before in outposts (at least we could skip an opponent) and now that's being removed.

    As I mentioned above I'm looking forward to seeing how the changes play out. And I agree that people complain when you tell them about changes and complain when you don't tell them so I get that part of NG frustration.

    I want to be hopeful that no longer having the ability to see anything about the opponent were matched up against will help players to be reinvigorated to posting outposts again but I'm hesitant. There's even more stress on outposts now to s cumulate TG's for the tokens, it appears in my opinion removing the choice and measuring up against the RNG hasn't played out too well in the past :(

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  • ShteevieShteevie Staff Posts: 1,335
    edited September 2016
    Now, on to addressing the topic directly:

    Intent: Matchmaking in many games, even non-digital ones, is based on a pure performance rating system. Do well, get ratings points, face better opponents.

    In those systems, the level of engagement with the game, and the length of your engagement, do not affect your ability to perform well at the game outside of your player's ability to gain in skill. Take Chess. Grandmasters don't start with a second Queen just because they are Grandmasters.

    In NML, your council level is a good approximation for your length of engagement, and has all sorts of effects on your power level - max survivor level, number of walkers available in your pit, etc. So a pure ratings matchmaking system could see players with quite low power level facing off against others with very high power, but a [possibly deliberately] low rating.

    Resetting Influence each cycle meant that players with different power levels could find each other more often than we wanted, so the influence will only drop to the start of the highest tier you have reached. If you are Gold or below, it won't drop at all. Small numbers of players in the Matchmaking pool, and the old average age of players we have now, will both be changed when new players arrive, as is expected with 2.2.

    Because this system is starting based on the current situation in the game, it could be that there are as many or even slightly more wonky matches made in the beginning. This is part of why we're incentivizing play more heavily here and doubling gains but not losses. We want to get everyone in, rated as fairly as possible in a very short amount of time, and see if that improves matchmaking enough that we can start to add even better rewards for higher influence tiers.

    This isn't the only change to this system we need to make. The combat modifications in 2.2 [like the dodge changes] are also needed, and are on the way. However, we want to try and get the initial sort out of the way before the influx of players in 2.2 to give them and the veteran players the best experience going forward.

    Thanks for reading this far. I'm very anxious about this update, as I know it has some potential to be rocky. I hope that, in the short term, the rewards will be enticing enough that you'll stick with it and continue to give us valuable data and feedback.

    -Steve
    Development Team Member - The Walking Dead: No Man's Land
    Please note: Development is a fluid process, and suggestions and implementation take time and iteration. Any discussion of future features, deadlines, updates, balance changes, and such should be considered prospective and subject to change.
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  • ShteevieShteevie Staff Posts: 1,335
    @DLich
    We're hoping to add more rewards to Outpost play, and you'll see some of these along with this event, but solid matchmaking is the foundation of fairness and excitement for PvP. skipping opponents to find underleveled defenders or a super-rich target undermines that. Especially with the shield being so long.

    There are a lot of interconnected issues here, and unfortunately a few bugs. That Tank behind the gate? Not what we intended. An imbalance in the availibility of cover is also a big deal. We'll keep woking to sort these out, and hopefully collect data on what works and what doesn't as we go. I want you to enjoy Outposts, too - I have big plans for them if we can make them work well for everyone.

    Thanks for your thoughts. Send me that feedback!
    Development Team Member - The Walking Dead: No Man's Land
    Please note: Development is a fluid process, and suggestions and implementation take time and iteration. Any discussion of future features, deadlines, updates, balance changes, and such should be considered prospective and subject to change.
    DLichMystiquergerkman
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