Scout not attacking on Overwatch

im at L31 and my survivors are all at L11. I haven't used Scouts much except for the Outpost missions where i dont use them for overwatch

ive started using Glenn on scavenge missions to get some extra tomatoes. when i set him up to attack on overwatch he will sometimes raise the weapon like hes going to attack as expected, but then never does, he just stands there with his arm raised while the walker comes right up to him and attacks, getting a serious injury and requiring a long rest. i dont think i recall ever having a Bruiser not attack like that, and i dont use warriors hardly at all so idk if they do that as well or not

this of course is extremely frustrating and makes the Scout a completely unattractive class to use. if this behavior continues im just going to stop using scouts all together

so is this working as intended? if so, what is the logic of it working this way?
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  • Squall_NMLSquall_NML Member Posts: 737
    What was the lvl of walker that attacked you? It happened to me if i go RSL 2 or 3 higher than my survivor. So i guessed the scouts freezed coz walker's charm and forgot to overwatch like they use to be.
    SCBMAblynknz
  • meathead013meathead013 Member Posts: 189
    i think it was L14 walker so maybe

    still, that makes little sense. youre going to often be fighting walkers a few levels above yours, why would the designers think its a good idea to make it super risky to use a Scout like that? you are essentially erasing the overwatch ability for Scouts when you need them most - against tougher opponents

    again, if this is working as intended im just shelving Scouts. as a game designer i certainly wouldnt want my users to just ignore a class like that. what benefit to the game does making a class too risky to use provide? seems like an indefensible design decision

    anybody have any idea if Warriors behave this way as well? that would indicate they are trying to be consistent with it. for what reason i cant imagine, but it would suggest it is working as intended
  • meathead013meathead013 Member Posts: 189
    and in this case it makes especially horrible sense bc the walker only had a sliver of health left

    before using Glenn i made sure all his equipment was maxxed. hes got a gorgeous legendary machete with terrific traits that give him extra turns and a charged attack on almost every turn. hes wearing an epic suit of armor with Iron Skin, stun resistance, and bullet dodge

    so youre telling me a gravely wounded walker 2-3 levels above cant be taken out by a maxxed out scout?!? that seems entirely counter intuitive and a horrible game design decision
  • meathead013meathead013 Member Posts: 189
    Lol. True but I'd still like to know if this is working as intended
  • DLichDLich Member Posts: 5,541
    @meathead013 yes it is. It seems you're looking at interrupt. At RSL 3+ your looking at higher rates of "body shots" so your interrupt won't work on a body shot.

    If you have RSL 11 survivors and this happened on a Lvl 14 Walker then it sounds like you hit them with a body shot and thus interrupt is useless even if it's 100%

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  • DLichDLich Member Posts: 5,541
    Ok i just re-read what you wrote maybe I misunderstood. Is the issue that you're on overwatch, you have an attack point left over but your survivor didn't get any hit yet was attacked by the walker?

    If you have an attack point left, regardless if interrupt is working or not, you should get a hit on the walker first then the walker gets a hit on you. So you're survivor is just freezing, not hitting them but rather getting hit instead? Almost as if you didn't have any attack points left after ending your turn?



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  • Xcal1burXcal1bur Member Posts: 54
    Happened to me too quite often. The scout freezes with arm raised, the camera zooms in and then it starts a struggle. Really annoying especially in challenges. I used to think was maybe related to level difference but thinking about it, doesn't make sense the scout isn't even getting the chance to hit before going into struggle.
  • meathead013meathead013 Member Posts: 189
    Xcal1bur said:

    Happened to me too quite often. The scout freezes with arm raised, the camera zooms in and then it starts a struggle. Really annoying especially in challenges. I used to think was maybe related to level difference but thinking about it, doesn't make sense the scout isn't even getting the chance to hit before going into struggle.

    this

    no, its not interrupt, at least as i understand how interrupt is supposed to work

    just as xcal said, its the scout standing there literally with his arm up ready to strike as the walker approaches ... only to freeze and never execute the overwatch attack. it goes immediately to turning his health bar red and hes in a struggle
  • meathead013meathead013 Member Posts: 189
    so again, id like to know: is this working as intended?
  • meathead013meathead013 Member Posts: 189
    and yes, there definitely was an attack point left before i hit next turn, so he should have been able to get an attack off in overwatch
  • Marcus6253Marcus6253 Member Posts: 221
    I have seen this same behavior with all melee overwatch attacks. It appears that before the overwatch attack is conducted there is a separate RNG check to see if the walker can override the overwatch attack and immediately put the survivor in struggle. This happens regardless of the number of hit points the walker has left. Most of the time it happens it is with walkers that are two or thee levels above my survivor level. It would be nice to know the calculations for the game but from what I understand NG has refused to give out any actual formulas.
    @Shteevie @Teeceezy Can you provide any insight into this?
  • TheLostOnesTheLostOnes Member Posts: 3,032
    This has happened to me many times, not just with scouts but also bruisers and warriors on overwatch-mode.

    But it's only a visual bug: it happens when the overwatch attack isn't strong enough to kill the attacking walker who then goes on to harm the overwatcher so much that he enters struggle.

    The overwatcher still gives the walker the hit, you just don't see it happen before you enter the struggle.
    I'm lost.

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  • meathead013meathead013 Member Posts: 189
    thanks marcus

    is it just me or does that seem like an abysmally poor game design decision?

    why bother having overwatch available to a melee survivor if youre going to run the risk of going from full health to immediately being a severe injury?

    like i said, you have a walker with a razor thin health line and a fully healthy melee attacker. they should be able to get that overwatch strike in 100% of the time, no? and then if they dont kill the walker for some reason (maybe dodge) THEN they could get attacked and put into struggle

    without the ability to reliably get an overwatch hit in you are removing probably half the utility of a melee attacker. seems insanely illogical
  • PiterluisPiterluis Member Posts: 27
    I have seen this behaviour with my survivors from time to time when the walker (usually several levels over them) grab them on first hit. I always thought it was just a graphical game error... I m not sure, but I think your survivor defends achieving low damage to the walker (not enought to kill it or stop it), and after it, walker catch him by once. When it occurs, there is a kind of pause between walker contact and the grabbing. Game is not showing the defense but as far as I guess, it occurs.
    Member of Spanish Rage Guild. Playing since early 2016.
  • meathead013meathead013 Member Posts: 189
    ok i guess thats possible. you are right, there does appear to be a short pause before they go into struggle, so it could conceivably be a missing animation transition or something

    so maybe the razor thin health walker dodged my scouts overwatch strike but it just wasnt shown on the graphics. it could also happen if the walker had enough health to survive a body shot, but ive never thought to look at the walkers health afterwards to see if that could be determined to be the case
  • meathead013meathead013 Member Posts: 189
    but if it was a dodge, i dont think ive ever seen a ranged attack dodged by a walker. ive seen the human opponents dodge ranged weapons, not the walkers

    so that would have to mean walkers can dodge melee attacks but not ranged attacks ... which also seems a little illogical
  • jimmorrison369jimmorrison369 Member Posts: 2,065
    I'm pretty sure @thelostones got the correct answer.
    I've been using my scout a lot, for months now.

    I've seen it too, and I'm 99% sure that the damage to the walker does happen.
    It just isn't enough to kill him.
    MLHTheLostOnesblynknz
  • The_JerThe_Jer Member Posts: 293
    I did not read each post in detail, but one thing to keep in mind is that if there is not at least one grid space between your survivor and the walker when you end turn, overwatch will NOT activate. Overwatch only activates on a walker movement away from the spot they were occupying. It does not activate if the walker does not have to move to attack
  • ShteevieShteevie Staff Posts: 1,335
    Hello all, and thanks for being helpful and detailed in your discussions.

    I think that it is, in fact, an issue with the way the animations play out. I'd be happy to take a look at a video clip if you want to further go over the game events frame by frame, and I fully admit that the animation order can sometimes make following the action more difficult than it should be.

    One thing that affects this is that as soon as your inputs are complete [either by hitting "End Turn" or by using your last action point], the game immediately calculates all of the events that will happen until your next turn begins. You can tell which walker will be hit on Overwatch before they step into range, because sometimes they spurt blood before they move. You can tell which walkers will die from an OW or retaliate, because their HP bars disappear right away.

    Unfortunately, some animations that are responses to other events happen in response to the predetermination of the triggering event, and not in response to the animation of the triggering event. I think that, in the case described above, the "arm raising" animation is a truncated version of the OW attack that is then cut off by the predetermined struggle. I'd be really surprised if there wasn't a damage number for the OW attack in the mix there, though I know it is easy to lose those if several appear at once. Remember that OW does 1/2 damage by default, so it often fails to kill a walker; especially one above your own level.

    The reason we have to do the predeterminaton is to make sure that the client and server agree on the game state at the end of the turn, especially in cases where you might lose connection in the middle. We have an engineer who is actually quite excited by the idea of fixing the animation order, but it will have to happen when we aren't all working to get a really big feature into an update.
    Development Team Member - The Walking Dead: No Man's Land
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    blynknzDLichmeathead013
  • blynknzblynknz Member Posts: 1,988
    I don't think there is anything wrong with determining the outcomes first, and I would be very surprised if any turn based game out there did it differently.

    I've never experienced it not looking like I didn't hit them, but I have encountered all the others, like @Shteevie said about the health bars dropping or disappearing before they even move, or the stun icon comes on.

    @meathead013, try and replicate it, and if you can take a video, take a screenshot just before the end of your turn with the scout in overwatch, and then afterwards.
    You will probably notice that the walkers health bar will now be half full.
  • meathead013meathead013 Member Posts: 189
    edited January 2017
    Well like I said this was a walker that had very little Health left. And he was about three spaces away so that wasn't the problem, the OverWatch hit definitely should have fired

    Thanks too stevie for the explanation. But what wasn't answered is whether walkers can dodge. Because I think that's the only way that this could have happened because the Walkers Health level was so low I can't imagine even a 50% hit from a fully loaded Skout could possibly not achieve the level of attack that would have been required to kill the Walker. But then again I don't know exactly how low an OverWatch attack can go, if it was a body shot and if it was at the very bottom of the random number range maybe it could only hit for a couple of points, maybe one less than what the Walker had. But I would have had to be super low because this walker was almost dead haha
  • meathead013meathead013 Member Posts: 189
    edited January 2017
    Lol. Man the speech-to-text converter in here sucks. It drops words all the time, capitalizes words that have no business being capitalized, and comes up with some really weird interpretations of what you say. And What the hell is a Skout?!?
  • meathead013meathead013 Member Posts: 189
    I will try to keep an eye on those subtle animation hands in the future, but I take what Stevie said at his word that they know the animations are not accurate and that the OverWatch attack almost definitely if not for sure fired. Which is actually good because it means I don't have to give up on the Skout Survivor type comma I'll just have to be more careful and how I use it
  • meathead013meathead013 Member Posts: 189
    Comma?! Really? How many times in your conversations do you use the actual word 'comma'? I'm probably set 12 billion words before the last time I actually used the word comma in a sentence
  • Japes87Japes87 Member Posts: 1,399
    Here is a video . I thought at first that Overwatch was acting up (hence the name of the video) but if you watch closely , you can see the power bar on the zombie go down 3 times in unison. What I do think might be happening , is that one of all of the Scout Overwatch hits are doing around quarter damage or less and not the half (or more with vigilant) advertised.

    It is hitting without the animation as @Shteevie mentioned on the last hit as you can see at the end of the video


  • blynknzblynknz Member Posts: 1,988
    No, walkers can not dodge. It's impossible. Your attack could be a body shot, but you will always do damage to walker with a hit.
    But if you are in overwatch, your damage is reduced by 50% and then if its a body shot its reduced another 50%.
    So if you normally do 400 damage, it would only be 100

    DoTak
  • meathead013meathead013 Member Posts: 189
    Yeah good video you could see they're working as Stevie suggested
  • meathead013meathead013 Member Posts: 189
    blynknz said:

    No, walkers can not dodge. It's impossible. Your attack could be a body shot, but you will always do damage to walker with a hit.
    But if you are in overwatch, your damage is reduced by 50% and then if its a body shot its reduced another 50%.
    So if you normally do 400 damage, it would only be 100

    Well I'm sure the health bars on the walkers are not completely reliable butt it look like it had about 1/5 Health at maximum left probably less. So somehow my Scouts OverWatch attack must have been at the bare minimum and then the Walker had a little more health than it looked on the health bar
  • blynknzblynknz Member Posts: 1,988
    But the health bar represents a % of the health left that the walker started with.
    So its a bit hard not knowing the extact details. But a little bit left on a level 11 walker could be 60, but the same value on a level 15 = 123
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