Question about damage calculations

Maybe someone can assist me to ensure I'm doing the math correctly here.

Warning!!! If you hate math please don't read any further...



With the in game announcement stating that every pink star adds 5% to damage and health I'm trying to work backwards here to ensure it's calculating correctly. I'm working on damage for now.

So the above survivor 'Evan' is lvl 21 with strong (15%) and 1 pink star (5%)

3103 for total damage minus 1719 for weapons damage is 1384. Working backwards I get 1318 as base survivor damage (with strong)... 1318 + 66 (5% for 1 pink star) is 1384. 1384 is survivors base damage without any pink stars but with strong. If I subtract out the 15% for strong I'm getting 1146 base damage.

So to recap...

1146 survivor base damage
+ 15% for strong (171.90) = 1146 + 171.90 = 1317.90 (rounded to 1318)
+ 5% for pink star (65.90) = 1318 + 65.90 = 1383.90 (rounded to 1384)
+ 1719 for weapon (no lethal) = 1384 + 1719 = 3103. With me so far??

I'd like to use the same calculations (starting with the base 1146 survivor damage assessed above)



This survivor 'Dylan' is lvl 21 with strong (16%) and 2 pink stars (5% each)

1146 survivor base damage as discovered above (but I will work in the order in which things are presented to the player)

+ 15% for strong (171.90) = 1146 + 171.90 = 1317.90 (rounded to 1318)
+ +5% for pink star (65.90) = 1318 + 65.90 = 1383.90 (rounded to 1384)
+ 1% for trait upgrade (13.84) = 1384 + 13.84 = 1397.84 (rounded to 1398)
+ 5% for 2nd pink star (69.9) = 1398 + 69.9 = 1467.90 (rounded to 1468)
+2044 for weapon (no lethal) = 1468 + 2044 = 3512 (but it's 3488) Did I miss something??


It doesn't seem like it's calculating correctly. Even if I add the 16% damage in one shot (from the base without strong number) the math still seems to be off.

1146 + 16% (strong) = 1329 + 5% (first star) = 1395 + 5% (second star) = 1465 + 2044 (weapon) = 3509

Evan has survivor damage of 1384 with 15% strong and 1 pink star
Dylan has survivor damage of 1444 with 16% strong and 2 pink stars

The difference between these two is 6% (1% strong; 5% pink star) yet their damage is 60 difference. Shouldn't it be more?

image
| OG | NOC | USA | UK | CA | CQR | UC | RAD | ZEN |
Other Leaders | Kick_ass | Pic | abailey362 | GunnerGaz | JMo2127 |
MAVERICK'S 1 Million Star Club | OG | USA | NOC
Analyze This with ALF4reals | v1 | v2 | v3 |
| My YouTube Videos | My 1st Interview | Best Analogy Award!! |

Freemium... the "mium" is latin for 'not really'
vshield50GindyCaptainslayerPutchucoromeoSmittySpivey3
«1

Comments

  • DLichDLich Member Posts: 5,546
    @Serp I put the warning on top lol

    image
    | OG | NOC | USA | UK | CA | CQR | UC | RAD | ZEN |
    Other Leaders | Kick_ass | Pic | abailey362 | GunnerGaz | JMo2127 |
    MAVERICK'S 1 Million Star Club | OG | USA | NOC
    Analyze This with ALF4reals | v1 | v2 | v3 |
    | My YouTube Videos | My 1st Interview | Best Analogy Award!! |

    Freemium... the "mium" is latin for 'not really'
    Jadenromeo
  • SerpSerp Member Posts: 620
    But I don't hate math...
  • SerpSerp Member Posts: 620
    NG math does annoy me sometimes though. I long ago gave up on trying to decipher how everything is calculated. That is why I appreciate all the work some of you here on the forum do to attempt to bring clarity to the masses!
  • DLichDLich Member Posts: 5,546
    Could it be that the lower the rarity the survivor is found the higher each calculation for strong becomes?

    Here me out here.

    lvl 1 strong is 5%
    lvl 2 strong is 7%
    lvl 3 strong is 10%
    lvl 4 strong is 12%
    lvl 5 strong is 15%
    lvl 6 strong is 16%

    For all calculations I will start with a base number of 1000 to make the math easier to follow

    You find a rare survivor with lvl 2 strong (starting at 7%) and you upgrade the trait.
    1000 + 7% (found at rare) is 1070. You then upgrade the trait to lvl 3
    1070 + 3% = 32.1 (rounded to 32) giving 1102 as upgrade lvl 3 amount. You then upgrade the trait to lvl 4
    1102 + 2% = 22.04 (rounded to 22) giving 1124 as upgraded lvl 4 amount. You then upgrade the trait to lvl 5
    1124 + 3% = 33.72 (rounded to 34) giving 1158 as upgraded lvl 5 amount

    You find an epic survivor with lvl 3 strong (starting at 10%) and you upgrade the trait.
    1000 + 10% (found at epic) is 1100. You then upgrade the trait to lvl 4
    1100 + 2% = 22 giving 1122 as upgraded lvl 4 amount. You then upgrade the trait to lvl 5
    1122 + 3% = 33.66 (rounded to 34) giving 1156 as upgraded lvl 5 amount

    You find a legendary survivor with lvl 4 strong (starting at 12%) and you upgrade the trait.
    1000 + 12% (found at legendary) is 1120. You then upgrade the trait to lvl 5
    1120 + 3% = 33.6 (rounded to 34) giving 1154 as upgraded to lvl 5 amount

    Is it taking into account it's found rarity? I have no clue what some of these rarities were found at.... but if that's the case does that mean common survivors with strong traits being upgraded to legendary and elite etc give more damage than found legendaries? Is the higher the rarity when found ultimately give slightly less damage than lower rarity survivors when found? Aren't all non hero survivors or the same type (in this example scout vs scout) the same base.

    Would 2 scouts whom both have strong at trait lvl 5 give the same exact "base hero damage" (total damage - weapons damage) assuming they have the exact same traits and exact same weapons/armor OR does the rarity in which they were found determine a different damage value (ie the lower the rarity found the higher the damage would be if traits are upgraded)?

    image
    | OG | NOC | USA | UK | CA | CQR | UC | RAD | ZEN |
    Other Leaders | Kick_ass | Pic | abailey362 | GunnerGaz | JMo2127 |
    MAVERICK'S 1 Million Star Club | OG | USA | NOC
    Analyze This with ALF4reals | v1 | v2 | v3 |
    | My YouTube Videos | My 1st Interview | Best Analogy Award!! |

    Freemium... the "mium" is latin for 'not really'
  • WarlordWarlord Member Posts: 165
    @DLich Interesting question. From a developer standpoint, the best way to do it is (category damage level) * modifier. So, a rare may have a base of 800, epic 900, and leg 1000; your formula is pretty straight forward: (800 * 1.16) = damage [rare], (900 * 1.16) = [epic] and (1000 * 1.16) = [leg]. Without looking at the code, I would be 99% certain this is how it is done as 1) it simplifies the logic; 2) it simplifies the data storage 3) it is faster logic to process. From a financial perspective, this is also the best method when you factor in the cost for design, code, & test compared to the compound option.

    The compound method could be done but would be data and resource intensive as you would have to store all of that data and then whenever an upgrade was done, it would have to be calculated and restored. In addition, I don't believe the game started with the ability to upgrade survivors so they would have had to do a data format conversion to go from an old storage format to a new one to do this. Additionally, the logic would be more significantly more complex than just modifying the base which introduces a higher risk for bugs. Finally, it is much easier to run a simulation to check other logic using the base + modifier logic than with this one as your dispersion range for damage is much greater with the compounding skills than with just a straight modifier to know what changes or additions will have on game play.

    NG could be doing the compound method but me personally, I wouldn't as I always try to apply KISS when doing app design & coding as that significantly reduces the likelihood of bugs.

    DLichGindyromeo
  • GrimGaelGrimGael Member Posts: 1,410
    Lol, NG fears no bugs. Or never sees them coming, I don't know which.
    xbamfxgespuer
  • DLichDLich Member Posts: 5,546
    I honestly don't think it's compounded either. But then I can't seem to figure out why both survivors with strong (other than the 1% difference and the 5% added for the second star) differ so much.

    I'm trying to remember but I think one of them was found as legendary (Lvl 4 strong) and one was found as epic (Lvl 3 strong) which would mean infact the lower rarity survivor found is different base damage than a higher Lvl rarity survivor found.

    I don't know if anyone from NG will confirm this but it seems to be the case. It's been so long I've had these two as legendary I don't remember.

    image
    | OG | NOC | USA | UK | CA | CQR | UC | RAD | ZEN |
    Other Leaders | Kick_ass | Pic | abailey362 | GunnerGaz | JMo2127 |
    MAVERICK'S 1 Million Star Club | OG | USA | NOC
    Analyze This with ALF4reals | v1 | v2 | v3 |
    | My YouTube Videos | My 1st Interview | Best Analogy Award!! |

    Freemium... the "mium" is latin for 'not really'
    xbamfxgespuer
  • DLichDLich Member Posts: 5,546
    The fact that 'Evan' has retaliate as a 5th trait leads me to believe I found him that way as legendary.

    'Dylan' has vigilant as 5th trait so I definitely found him as epic (and upgrades him to legendary before I found 'Evan'

    Nobody on their right mind would upgrade a scout without retaliate so I know for a fact 'Evan' was found legendary since I never upgrade anyone that's a rare (only epics)

    image
    | OG | NOC | USA | UK | CA | CQR | UC | RAD | ZEN |
    Other Leaders | Kick_ass | Pic | abailey362 | GunnerGaz | JMo2127 |
    MAVERICK'S 1 Million Star Club | OG | USA | NOC
    Analyze This with ALF4reals | v1 | v2 | v3 |
    | My YouTube Videos | My 1st Interview | Best Analogy Award!! |

    Freemium... the "mium" is latin for 'not really'
    xbamfx
  • DLichDLich Member Posts: 5,546
    edited June 2017
    Looking at the health aspect since the game advises a pink star also adds 5% health you'll notice that's not correct either.

    My 5 star survivor has health of 1357 with 39 coming from the vest. That's 1318 without

    My 6 star survivor has health of 1404 with 39 coming from the vest. That's 1365 without.

    That's a difference of 47 being "5%" that would indicate 1% is 9.4 health

    5% of 1318 is 65.9 rounded to 66 not 47.


    Just these two comparisons between 5 star and 6 star I feel we're missing out on both atk and health.

    It seems the atk damage given is about 3.5% and the health added is about 3.5%...

    Oh and iron skin doesn't make any difference regarding added health so comparing my 5 star legendary with iron skin to my 6 star legendary without iron skin matters not.

    Adding a star is indicated in the game to be 5% to both damage and health.

    I'd hardly call adding 39 attack and 47 health 5%

    Can you look into this @Teeceezy please :dizzy:

    image
    | OG | NOC | USA | UK | CA | CQR | UC | RAD | ZEN |
    Other Leaders | Kick_ass | Pic | abailey362 | GunnerGaz | JMo2127 |
    MAVERICK'S 1 Million Star Club | OG | USA | NOC
    Analyze This with ALF4reals | v1 | v2 | v3 |
    | My YouTube Videos | My 1st Interview | Best Analogy Award!! |

    Freemium... the "mium" is latin for 'not really'
    GindyDavid_H79
  • CaptainslayerCaptainslayer Member Posts: 1,430
    That's alot of maths (math for my American friends) I didn't check it all but what I checked is correct. I wonder if it makes a difference on what lvl your survivor is when promoted?
    Elder of dragons weyr a top USA guild
    DLich
  • DLichDLich Member Posts: 5,546
    That's the only thing I can think of. I don't remember which were found legendaries and which were epics that got promoted. I dont remember what level they were found at or what level they were promoted at.

    5% should be 5%. Things like their original rarity, what level they were when upgraded, wgat level they were when received in my camp shouldn't matter.

    I understand the 5% probably doesn't include any perks like marksman but I would think that 5% is a linear upgrade.

    It seems there's an error in the games calculation of 5%

    I believe there's some "mystery" number that I haven't been able to calculate for example on these hunters.

    When you add marksman it's 15% of that number. When you add promotions it's 5% of that same number (not the new one)

    The forum figured it out a long time ago before pink stars were a thing. We calculated it to see if marksman was being tabulated correctly and if I recall it wasn't. Marksman was adding percentage to the weapon not the survivor.

    If 5% increase is 39 attack and 47 health that'd indicate the base numbers are 780 attack and 940 health. But nowhere can I use backwards math to get 780 as base attack and 940 as base health so it leads me to believe it's not 5% that's being added but rather a lower number.

    image
    | OG | NOC | USA | UK | CA | CQR | UC | RAD | ZEN |
    Other Leaders | Kick_ass | Pic | abailey362 | GunnerGaz | JMo2127 |
    MAVERICK'S 1 Million Star Club | OG | USA | NOC
    Analyze This with ALF4reals | v1 | v2 | v3 |
    | My YouTube Videos | My 1st Interview | Best Analogy Award!! |

    Freemium... the "mium" is latin for 'not really'
  • zbotzbot NML Legendary Moderator, OW Moderator Posts: 7,382
    @Dlich , I used to keep all my screenshots of my survivors that went pink (the promotion picture) but I think it's lost but I do remember you get a small boost in attack and health. Never thought about it since the increase was so small but that could be the 5%, 5% of what is the question? Your calculation is sound but since the # is already embedded in the base it's hard to figure out.

    In the meantime thanks for the mental exercise and reporting this.
    DLich
  • DLichDLich Member Posts: 5,546
    edited June 2017
    In real world numbers the difference is so small it probably took more time out of my day to do the calculations and ensure the math was accurate AND put it into terms a casual reader might be able to understand and follow than it was worth lol.

    66 extra health instead of 47 extra health & somewhere around 60 extra atk instead of 39 extra atk in the grand scheme of things isn't a make or break difference. It's more my OCD looking into seeing if 5% held true.

    This doesn't come close to what @PR0DJ discoved with the crit damage on charge abilities not calculating properly. That will greatly improve the game. These 20 extra points on base isn't as much but if it's calculated incorrectly and fixed it would be in the players favor so that's good at least.

    image
    | OG | NOC | USA | UK | CA | CQR | UC | RAD | ZEN |
    Other Leaders | Kick_ass | Pic | abailey362 | GunnerGaz | JMo2127 |
    MAVERICK'S 1 Million Star Club | OG | USA | NOC
    Analyze This with ALF4reals | v1 | v2 | v3 |
    | My YouTube Videos | My 1st Interview | Best Analogy Award!! |

    Freemium... the "mium" is latin for 'not really'
  • WarlordWarlord Member Posts: 165
    @Teeceezy Can you shed some light on this? Something does seem "off" from Dlich's post at 6:11 UTC.

    Does anyone of a screenshot of an epic going legendary of what the modifiers are?
  • WarlordWarlord Member Posts: 165
    edited June 2017
    @DLich, Took a crack at reverse engineering your last example

    If Melinda's base is "976", then 1.12 = 1093.12 or rounded, what you have in your pic at 15%, 976 * 1.15 = 1122.4 or 1122. Not sure why the 1 point difference there.

    On the second one, 1008 as a base, 1.15 * 1008 = 1159.2 and 1.16 * 1008 = 1169.28 which gets you roughly what you have in those pictures. Again quirky rounding for the differences.

    So it looks like the damage is (base + pink modifiers) * (1 + ranged attack modifier) = damage.

    However, if pink's add 5% to the base, 5% of 976 is 48.8, not 32 as these numbers work out as. 32 is 3.2787% of the base. That means Joe and Peter should have a base of 1024.8 and modified values of 1178.75 and 1189 using 1025 as modified base with pink star added in. Even if you take the 976 base and multiply by 1.15 and then add the pink bonus after modifier ((976*1.15%)+48.8), you would get 1171.2 and 1180.96, still not matching with Joe and Peter. Something doesn't compute here. Maybe @Teeceezy can look into this.

    That still leaves unanswered questions of whether a promoted epic for base damage equals an unpromoted legendary base damage. I would say yes atm, but maybe @Teeceezy could confirm this.
    GindyDLichDavid_H79
  • gespuergespuer Member Posts: 1,565
    Really , @DLich I'm absolutely impressed by all your math and data collection, but I really think you need some psychological help or at least a social life, man!

    BTW Thanks a lot for enlighten us all with your researches. That's absolut impressive!
    DLich
  • snafusnafu Member Posts: 227
    Base damage before promotion was 881, 30 point increase in damage is 3.4%. Marksman doesn't seem to affect displayed damage number.



  • docfinzenburgdocfinzenburg Member Posts: 543
    dmg pic 1: 2365
    dmg pic 3: 2396

    and add dmg pic 2: 30(?), why not 31?
  • snafusnafu Member Posts: 227
    edited June 2017
    Excellent question, I didn't even notice that before. Maybe because math is hard?

    Edit: At the time of promotion, weapon in hand was epic lvl 9 with 89 points of damage. That displayed damage increase of 30 points correctly.

    Edit2: DLich's pics show that increase in marksman actually changes displayed damage value. That would mean that 30 point damage increase already includes +16% from marksman. And my assumption for base damage is off, correct value would be 747. Still the increase is around 3.5%, not 5%.
  • PutchucoPutchuco Member Posts: 1,289
    @Speeds , pretty sure you cracked the mystery here, bravo.

    And it makes sense, simply because the programmers (and the creators of the data model) most likely did not plan for entries for all the values in between base lvl and final dmg/health. Instead all calculations always go back to the one value stored with your survivors, the base value.

    Bottom line, everyone would assume that a 5% increase per pink star would add a total of 5%, but it only adds another 5% on the base value, effectively adding the exact amount each step, and relatively to the previous level a smaller percentage amount each time.
    If you would like to join a drama-free and fun group of enthusiasts,
    contact us via email at [email protected]
  • PutchucoPutchuco Member Posts: 1,289
    P.S.: @Speeds I dont think you need to apologize for not being American, I truly hope we havent gone that far down that road ;)
    If you would like to join a drama-free and fun group of enthusiasts,
    contact us via email at [email protected]
    SpeedsromeoGindy
  • WarlordWarlord Member Posts: 165
    @Putchuco It also opens the question of if the same thing happens if your survivor starts as rare and you promote him to legendary. @speeds work is great, but if pink stars are truly levels beyond legendary as NG says, the logic should work the same going from common to legendary as going from legendary to fifth pink star. If not, just another nerf as the skill modifiers aren't modifying all damage/health, just the base and as you pointed out, each pink star is not a true 5% increase from previous TOTAL base damage, but treated as a separate modifier and not as a true level increase.

    Hopefully we get some answers back from @Teeceezy soon on this.
    Putchuco
  • PutchucoPutchuco Member Posts: 1,289
    @Warlord agreed, if survivors are 'stuck' with the base lvl of their original 'birth', values then that would make upgrading from anything below Legendary to Pink less beneficial.

    Can't we verify this with our existing toons?
    Someone must remember the CV of two of their toons and see if there's a difference, right?
    If you would like to join a drama-free and fun group of enthusiasts,
    contact us via email at [email protected]
    DLich
  • TheLostOnesTheLostOnes Member Posts: 3,032
    @snafu check out my Kurtz and compare him to your Curtis. Traits, gear, name. Almost scary...
    I'm lost.

    Check out the DMZ guild. We're recruiting. Here.
    DLich
  • DLichDLich Member Posts: 5,546
    @snafu
    Curtis Silver 10% boost on armor gives 3886 Health


    @TheLostOnes
    Kurtz Gold 15% boost on armor gives 3690 Health


    Traits are the same, they are the same level, they both have ATK of the same since both have gold lethal, weapons are the same levek, armor is the same level...

    Why does Silver health boost 'Curtis' have more health than Gold health boost 'Kurtz'??


    image
    | OG | NOC | USA | UK | CA | CQR | UC | RAD | ZEN |
    Other Leaders | Kick_ass | Pic | abailey362 | GunnerGaz | JMo2127 |
    MAVERICK'S 1 Million Star Club | OG | USA | NOC
    Analyze This with ALF4reals | v1 | v2 | v3 |
    | My YouTube Videos | My 1st Interview | Best Analogy Award!! |

    Freemium... the "mium" is latin for 'not really'
    TheLostOnesGarretsligoem
Sign In or Register to comment.