2.7 and beyond??

24

Comments

  • DragonfyreDragonfyre Member Posts: 117
    Too me then? I still say find a way to add more stars either with more maps/higher star rewards on the higher lvls. I guess for now will watch and see what happens. This week though will be my first week losing the 76 stars so will be interesting seeing my star total .
    Hope something happens on NG end and they let us know soon :)
    @Dragonfyre (Leader/Dragons Weyr)
  • crambert_neccrambert_nec Member Posts: 1,376
    edited July 2017
    Would the lower level triple rounds need to be factored in to that initial starting star count? Star totals and rewards are all relative though. They can adjust the reward tiers to compensate for having us start with stars. I just want something where people who are upgrading survivors are not losing stars.

    EDIT: @DLich just saw your edit after posting my comment. Scratch that idea I guess lol
    Leader of WATCH TOWER RoD
    DLich
  • DLichDLich Member Posts: 5,541
    Yeah for them to compensate giving everyone 1500 stars going into the challenge probably won't happen lol.

    image
    | OG | NOC | USA | UK | CA | CQR | UC | RAD | ZEN |
    Other Leaders | Kick_ass | Pic | abailey362 | GunnerGaz | JMo2127 |
    MAVERICK'S 1 Million Star Club | OG | USA | NOC
    Analyze This with ALF4reals | v1 | v2 | v3 |
    | My YouTube Videos | My 1st Interview | Best Analogy Award!! |

    Freemium... the "mium" is latin for 'not really'
  • DLichDLich Member Posts: 5,541
    The starting RSL's get bumped after every 4-5 upgrades. The triple round moves back after exactly every 3. The triple round bump is what's causing players to not want to upgrade 3 survivors to the next level and also causing players to not want to unlock heroes.

    The starting RSL being bumped every 4-5 rounds isn't so bad. It's the triple rounds being bumped which are causing the most star loss.

    If I'm at Lvl 22 survivors I don't want to start at RSL 3 like the old version. But I also don't want to lose out on 76 stars compared to someone with 3 Lvl 21's.

    Hopefully NG can find a happy medium.

    image
    | OG | NOC | USA | UK | CA | CQR | UC | RAD | ZEN |
    Other Leaders | Kick_ass | Pic | abailey362 | GunnerGaz | JMo2127 |
    MAVERICK'S 1 Million Star Club | OG | USA | NOC
    Analyze This with ALF4reals | v1 | v2 | v3 |
    | My YouTube Videos | My 1st Interview | Best Analogy Award!! |

    Freemium... the "mium" is latin for 'not really'
    CosSmiNjavajnkie
  • crambert_neccrambert_nec Member Posts: 1,376
    New drastic idea:

    1. Get rid of triple rounds
    -Probably will have to adjust reward structure
    -Possibly start us at a slightly lower RSL so the amount of challenge play time each week is not drastically shortened

    2. Each player starts with a bank of stars equal to all completed rounds from RSL 1 up to whatever RSL they start at
    -This number won't be astronomical now since the triple rounds would be removed

    3. Allow a larger amount of survivors to be upgraded to a new level before your starting RSL changes
    -6 survivors is a nice number (ideally one of each class)
    Leader of WATCH TOWER RoD
    PigAvengers
  • DLichDLich Member Posts: 5,541

    New drastic idea:

    1. Get rid of triple rounds
    -Probably will have to adjust reward structure
    -Possibly start us at a slightly lower RSL so the amount of challenge play time each week is not drastically shortened

    2. Each player starts with a bank of stars equal to all completed rounds from RSL 1 up to whatever RSL they start at
    -This number won't be astronomical now since the triple rounds would be removed

    3. Allow a larger amount of survivors to be upgraded to a new level before your starting RSL changes
    -6 survivors is a nice number (ideally one of each class)

    You've just described the old style challenge (single rounds) but with the new style of bonus stars which wasn't in the old challenge. Also when we had the low level grind of old players suggested the same (start closer to your own RSL and/or select which RSL you want to start at and give the players the bank of all stars earned without having to play them).

    I agree this is a quick solution but it would keep in place the need to complete rounds (old style you can farm a particular map over and over again).

    Awards are a set structure. Looking at this (which might be outdated) players would walk into the challenge with some 400 stars and earning 13 rewards without doing anything. The structure has to be the same across all player levels so I don't see NG giving out 13 rewards just for logging in.



    image
    | OG | NOC | USA | UK | CA | CQR | UC | RAD | ZEN |
    Other Leaders | Kick_ass | Pic | abailey362 | GunnerGaz | JMo2127 |
    MAVERICK'S 1 Million Star Club | OG | USA | NOC
    Analyze This with ALF4reals | v1 | v2 | v3 |
    | My YouTube Videos | My 1st Interview | Best Analogy Award!! |

    Freemium... the "mium" is latin for 'not really'
    vshield50
  • crambert_neccrambert_nec Member Posts: 1,376
    I don't mind the need to complete rounds. I like that we get bonus stars for completing them and I like that we can redo levels until we get our desired star result. Is anyone really super-duper attached to the triple rounds?

    I see what you're saying about rewards, though. But this way the better players with better survivors will no doubt get higher star totals. Rewards can be restructured to where we can ultimately get the same amount as we do now. Maybe they can make it so that you don't actually get the rewards for the free stars that you start with. I don't know.
    Leader of WATCH TOWER RoD
  • DLichDLich Member Posts: 5,541
    @Mabiki you mean something like I presented here?



    There has been some challenge tweaking since this was created when the challenge first started. This chart was created with the mindset that 3 survivors of the same lvl 20 would start at RSL 14 and 3 survivors of the same lvl 21 would start at RSL 15. It took into effect the loss of stars.

    So with 3 lvl 20's I start at RSL 14 and play 20 rounds and achieve 755 stars. Then after I spend 100 million xp upgrading umteen pieces of gear and survivors I get the luxury of earning an extra 20 stars? Or are my lvl 21 survivors expected to achieve even higher RSL's than my lvl 20's

    If my lvl 20's can face lvl 26's are you implying that lvl 21's can face lvl 28's to get the more stars that you are referring to? Or are you talking about the 20 stars (the one extra each round) that I'll earn after I spend 135,256,458 xp upgrading gear and survivors one level?

    image
    | OG | NOC | USA | UK | CA | CQR | UC | RAD | ZEN |
    Other Leaders | Kick_ass | Pic | abailey362 | GunnerGaz | JMo2127 |
    MAVERICK'S 1 Million Star Club | OG | USA | NOC
    Analyze This with ALF4reals | v1 | v2 | v3 |
    | My YouTube Videos | My 1st Interview | Best Analogy Award!! |

    Freemium... the "mium" is latin for 'not really'
    GrimGaelGovernatorDragonfyreAvengers
  • MabikiMabiki Member Posts: 1,732
    @DLich

    Yes, I was talking about something along those lines.

    To your other question, yes, I do think your level 21s should be able achieve higher RSL than level 20s. I understand that is a contested point, but it has been my experience as I advanced to higher level survivors.

    I don't have any anecdotal experience of my own specifically for 20 vs 21 because I'm still upgrading my camp to get to level 21 survivors. But I definitely earn more overall stars with 20s than I did with 19s, and same when going from 18s to 19s, etc.

    For example, with 19s I tended to max out at RSL 23/24 depending on maps and was lucky to hit the 920 star token crate. With level 20s I consistently reach RSL 25/26 and can break 1000 stars regularly.

    That doesn't necessarily make the progression fair, considering the cost of upgrading, as you noted, but I think ignoring bonus stars and the chance to complete higher RSL rounds presents an incomplete picture. That's all.
    tdiddyVudnik
  • DLichDLich Member Posts: 5,541
    Mabiki said:

    @DLich
    That doesn't necessarily make the progression fair, considering the cost of upgrading, as you noted, but I think ignoring bonus stars and the chance to complete higher RSL rounds presents an incomplete picture. That's all.

    I will agree with you that there are many factors that can go into an individual challenge and no two challenges are the same. The only clean cut way of finding out is if everything was equal. Challenges, survivors, gear, traits, gold spent, time, boosters if applicable etc. A player can dominate on a challenge like kaboom and blow their PB out of the water and others like alexandria might not be able to get as far. Some challenges will have a boost to assault causing a higher than normal star count for that map and a few months later that same map may show up when its a scout boost week and will obviously factor into being a lower score (again all other things being equal).

    The star loss primarily is substituting RSL 14.1, RSL 20.2 & RSL 20.2 for some higher level game play.

    If a survivor with lvl 21 starts at 14 and triples at 20 whom can make it to RSL 25.1 then decides to upgrade their survivors. They then play the exact same challenge map with lvl 22 survivors at starts at 15 and triples at 21 but can now make it to RSL 26.1 So in essence they have earned 20 stars but did it by losing 14.1, 20.2, 20.3 and substituting in it's place 25.2, 25.3, 26.1 25-14 is 9; 25-20 is 5; 26-20 is 6; 9+5+6=20... 20 is the "bonus" stars they have now earned by facing the same number of rounds yet the rounds they are facing are way harder.

    25.2 is no comparison to 14.1
    25.3 is no comparison to 20.2
    26.1 is no comparison to 20.3

    The "extra" stars are in the bonus because you are facing way harder opponents just to get to basically the same part.

    If someone can show me how their lvl 21 survivors could only make it to 25.1 but now their lvl 22 survivors can make it to 27.1 (26.1 would be equal I want to see these survivors going longer and higher).

    image
    | OG | NOC | USA | UK | CA | CQR | UC | RAD | ZEN |
    Other Leaders | Kick_ass | Pic | abailey362 | GunnerGaz | JMo2127 |
    MAVERICK'S 1 Million Star Club | OG | USA | NOC
    Analyze This with ALF4reals | v1 | v2 | v3 |
    | My YouTube Videos | My 1st Interview | Best Analogy Award!! |

    Freemium... the "mium" is latin for 'not really'
    Captainslayertdiddyjavajnkie
  • Bill_ZRTBill_ZRT Member Posts: 1,421
    edited July 2017
    Mabiki said:


    Correct me if I'm wrong, but the "lost stars" assumes you cannot get any further in the challenge with a stable of level 21s than you could with a stable of level 20s. Does it not?

    No, no no! That's not the claim! The argument isn't that a full group of 21s can't go further than a full group of 20s. They can,,, clearly... no one is arguing against that. But that's not what the Staring RSL or Repeat RSL formula does. If those formulas looked at you overall average survivor level (it would have to be slightly more complicated than that so people couldn't game the system by making calls for lvl 14 survivors they never used, so maybe it should look at the average of your top 10 survivors or something) then this would be a non issue because a full group of level 21s can absolutely outperform a full group of level 20s. However, the formulas only look at the average level of you top 3 survivors to calculate starting and repeat RSL. So if you have 2x lvl 21 survivors and the rest 20s, you start at RSL 14 and repeat at lvl 19. and if you upgrade just *one more* survivor to 21, now the starting RSL is 15 and the repeat level is 20. That one extra level 21 survivor doesn't let you get far enough to make up for that increase in starting and repeat RSL.

    If the formula looked at the average RSL of all of your top survivors, then this might be a non issue (certainly much less of an issue) because the starting RSL and repeat RSL would only increase when you had enough 21s to make further progress in the challenges even with the increase in starting and repeat RSL.

    And yes, this issue is certainly mitigated the more level 21s and the more max level maxed out gear you have, but leveling survivors is slow and finding and leveling gear is even slower. Since 2.6 dropped I have found a grand total of 3 legendary level 22 drops. That means that gear helping me get over this hump is a long, long ways away.

    Everyone’s got two wolves inside them. One is anger, envy, pride. The other…truth, kindness. Every day they tear each other apart.
    But it’s not the better wolf that wins. It’s the one you feed.

    Contact [email protected] or send @Bill_ZRT a message to join DTP today!

    tabernacCaptainslayerpaintbeasttdiddy
  • MabikiMabiki Member Posts: 1,732
    @DLich

    I don't quite understand your logic on which round is replacing which. To my mind, 14.1 is being replaced by 15.1, and 20.1 (first triple round) is being replaced by 21.1, etc. I don't get how 14.1 is being replaced by 25.2 in your view, unless you are arguing the starting RSL and triple rounds should be the same for all survivor levels.

    In any case, I think those are minor quibbles. I'm not arguing the existing progression is motivating people to advance; clearly it is not for many here. I just don't agree with all the assumptions in your data. It seems like NG disagrees with some of them as well, and I think the case for adjustment would be stronger if you were both coming from the same frame of reference.

    And in case it isn't clear, I DO appreciate the effort you put into compiling it, and I'm not intending any of this to be personal.
    DLich said:


    If someone can show me how their lvl 21 survivors could only make it to 25.1 but now their lvl 22 survivors can make it to 27.1 (26.1 would be equal I want to see these survivors going longer and higher).

    This is true for me when going from 19 to 20. I will happy to share my experience at 21 and 22 when I can. I'm about 20 million tomatoes away from being able to upgrade workshop and training grounds, though, so it might be a while.
    tdiddyAvengers
  • MabikiMabiki Member Posts: 1,732
    edited July 2017
    @DLich
    I'm quoting manually since prior posts are rather lengthy.

    "Part of me is wondering if you honestly, wholeheartedly don't see the error in the logic that bumping starting RSL and triple round RSL by 1 when you upgrade your survivor level by 1 is a flaw in logic if a progressing game or if you're trolling me."

    This bothers me, since I thought it was pretty clear I am engaging honestly. Like I said multiple times, I'm not arguing the current progression is fair given the investment, or that there is not a "flaw," as you put it. I'm not sure what more I can say to clarify that for you. If you missed that, please re-read my posts, particularly the second paragraph above. I gave plenty of caveats in my earlier posts and made a point to say I am not making this personal. Since it apparently didn't get through despite my best efforts, NO, I am not trolling.

    And this has nothing to do with whether or not my opinions side with "the masses."

    "Without knowing which map your PB was on I'm going to go out on a limb and say it was during a week that had a boost to one of the types of survivors you frequently use as well as a map that typically has higher star counts."

    Frankly, you are wrong in my case. My PB is in the high 1100s from the last Kaboom challenge. I purposely did not use that in my examples because it is an outlier. I referenced the star levels I am able to consistently reach at level 19 vs 20. But like I said, I'm talking about going from 19 to 20, which is not necessarily the same as 20 to 21 or 21 to 22. It's just the best info I have from my own experience.

    I'll repeat what I said above, since it is the jist of why I jumped in this thread at all knowing there might be some blowback:

    I'm not arguing the existing progression is motivating people to advance; clearly it is not for many here. I just don't agree with all the assumptions in your data. It seems like NG disagrees with some of them as well, and I think the case for adjustment would be stronger if you were both coming from the same frame of reference.
    tdiddyGrimGael
  • tdiddytdiddy Member Posts: 355
    Is the person above a paid spokesperson for NG? ;)
    MabikiGrimGaelvshield50
  • MabikiMabiki Member Posts: 1,732
    tdiddy said:

    Is the person above a paid spokesperson for NG? ;)

    @tdiddy

    No. I resent the implication, and such statements border on breaking forum rules with or without use of a smiley face. If I were a paid spokesperson or even just a blind cheerleader, I would be arguing that nothing is wrong, and it should be clear that's not what I'm doing since I said so numerous times. If you don't get that, the fault is your own.

    It seems some posters feel anyone who doesn't call the devs lying crooks in every post must be a secret NG mole. That's ignorant. Keep it on topic and refrain from personal attacks, or go (Insert Here) yourself.
    tdiddyGrimGaelggbatsVudnikPutchuco
  • DLichDLich Member Posts: 5,541
    Here is a progression chart of every player (at or near the end game) and where they should expect to be after having "perfect" rounds. They are color coded at different round breakpoints (blue being 5, orange being 10, blue being 15 etc)

    As a player progresses through the challenge and progresses through the game this will show exactly how many stars a player can expect to receive if they have a perfect round.

    Notice how the chart progresses and higher and higher RSL's are needed to maintain the same 15 and 20 rounds completed with the upgrade of survivors



    image
    | OG | NOC | USA | UK | CA | CQR | UC | RAD | ZEN |
    Other Leaders | Kick_ass | Pic | abailey362 | GunnerGaz | JMo2127 |
    MAVERICK'S 1 Million Star Club | OG | USA | NOC
    Analyze This with ALF4reals | v1 | v2 | v3 |
    | My YouTube Videos | My 1st Interview | Best Analogy Award!! |

    Freemium... the "mium" is latin for 'not really'
    Governatortdiddy
  • tdiddytdiddy Member Posts: 355
    whenever this comes up theres mabiki with blah seems to be working fine for me.... did i break a rule again? The point is ng is loseing players from this shit not being fixed... if you like it that's great you may very well be the last player here
    MabikiGrimGael
  • MabikiMabiki Member Posts: 1,732
    Learn to read, jerk.
    CaptainslayerGrimGaelvshield50
  • CaptainslayerCaptainslayer Member Posts: 1,424
    As usual the devs have missed or misinterpreted our complaints (in my opinion) the issue isn't that we aren't able to make up the 106 or the 76 lost stars from going to lvls 21 & 22 respectively, its the fact that we HAVE to make them up. I'm still on lvl 20's and I can beat rsl 25.3 and be on 1k stars (which is reasonably easy for me because walkers haven't had that massive boost just yet that lvl 26 walkers have) where my team mates with lvl 21's have to beat 26.3 (I think).

    Unfortunately I can't think of a decent solution to this problem that will be good for everyone, the only solution I can offer is instead of every survivor lvl increase that rsl starting and triple rds increasing every time, make it every 2nd survivor lvl increase
    Elder of dragons weyr a top USA guild
    DLichtdiddy
Sign In or Register to comment.