Piercing stacks like luck?

DLichDLich Member Posts: 5,526
Seeing another thread discussing piercing and crit chance made me wonder this.

Luck “improves the chance” that other traits go off



Piercing “reduces the chance” that a hit will be a body shot



I know we can’t be told the inner workings but can someone from NG confirm if this stacks like luck? If behind the scenes the chances are let’s say 90% chance to body shot; does having piercing reduce that number to 60% (90% - 30% = 60%)? Or does it work in the same way as luck does in the sense that 30% of 90% is 27% (the way luck stacks)

Can the chances of a body shot ever go above 100%? It seems illogical mathematically but if the game is using an algorithmic formula it potentially could be true that it does go beyond 100%

If the odds at +5 RSL = 100% that a body shot will occur then is the odds at +10 RSL still = 100%? Is it possible that anyone at rsl 30+ using piercing has ever had a non body shot hit?

Silver piercing is 20%. If the odds to body shot are let’s say 80% does this silver piercing reduce it by 20 or reduce it by 16 (20% of 80% = 16%... similar to luck stacking?

1) does chance to body shot ever exceed 100%?
2) does piercing stack like luck?

image
| OG | NOC | USA | UK | CA | CQR | UC | RAD | ZEN |
Other Leaders | Kick_ass | Pic | abailey362 | GunnerGaz | JMo2127 |
MAVERICK'S 1 Million Star Club | OG | USA | NOC
Analyze This with ALF4reals | v1 | v2 | v3 |
| My YouTube Videos | My 1st Interview | Best Analogy Award!! |

Freemium... the "mium" is latin for 'not really'
DBonesCoon
«1

Comments

  • DLichDLich Member Posts: 5,526
    Does piercing become less effective as the opponents level increases is basically what I’m asking.

    Let’s suppose you have lvl 22 survivors. 0 pink stars.

    At rsl 22 opponent has 80% chance to body shot
    At rsl 23 opponent has 84% chance to body shot
    At rsl 24 opponent has 88% chance to body shot
    At rsl 25 opponent has 92% chance to body shot
    At rsl 26 opponent has 96% chance to body shot
    At rsl 27 opponent has 100% chance to body shot.

    At rsl 28 would the opponent have a 104% chance to body shot? Meaning piercing becomes less effective the higher and higher you go? And if so does silver piercing, 20% remove 20% flat from 104% so that it’s 94%? Or is it like luck in that 20% of 104% is 20.8% rounded to 21%

    It’s not far fetched to think that the chances of a body shot go beyond 100% in a game that progressively makes things harder and harder.

    The trend, if one exists continues from the chat above...

    At rsl 28 opponent has 104% chance to body shot
    At rsl 29 opponent has 108% chance to body shot
    At rsl 30 opponent has 112% chance to body shot.

    At this point bronze piercing of 10% has no effect on body shots cause it’s still over 100%. See what I’m eluding to?

    image
    | OG | NOC | USA | UK | CA | CQR | UC | RAD | ZEN |
    Other Leaders | Kick_ass | Pic | abailey362 | GunnerGaz | JMo2127 |
    MAVERICK'S 1 Million Star Club | OG | USA | NOC
    Analyze This with ALF4reals | v1 | v2 | v3 |
    | My YouTube Videos | My 1st Interview | Best Analogy Award!! |

    Freemium... the "mium" is latin for 'not really'
    tabernacDigyo
  • MonsutaMonsuta Member Posts: 1,168
    edited September 2017
    No, Piercing is a fixed value that didn't increase by Lucky.

    @Shteevie answered here not long ago:
    http://forums.nextgames.com/walkingdead/discussion/comment/261523#Comment_261523
    Shteevie said:

    Luck's description reads:
    "Improves the chances that other traits will take effect by X%."

    Piercing's description reads:
    "Reduces the chance that your attacks will result in Body Shots by X%."

    Piercing 'works' all the time - that is, it always applies that change to the Body Shot chances, whether or not they turn out to matter. Because Piercing works all the time, it cannot be affected by luck. This is similar to how Lethal or Iron Skin, other traits that use percentages in their descriptions, are not affected by luck.

    Part of the confusion may come from the fact that Luck does affect Critical Hit chance, which is inconsistent with the way luck affects other non-trait-based percentage chances. However, the interaction between Luck and Critical Hit chance is the exception, and not the rule.

    If you want to put a fine point on it, consider a different hypothetical trait description for Piercing:
    Actual: "Reduces the chance that your attacks will result in Body Shots by X%."
    and
    Hypothetical: "X% chance that a Body Shot will be changed into a regular hit."

    The actual trait affects an event determined at random that does not originate from a trait. The second creates a whole new effect that occurs based on a random chance. You can hopefully see how the second would be affected by Luck and not the first, and also how the second has the potential to be much more or much less powerful than the original depending on the percentages, the level of the enemy you are attacking, and so on.

    [And before anyone asks: no, we are not considering any changes to Luck, Body Shots, or the Piercing trait.]

    There is NO higher rarity when we use all legendary to craft the badge, we are being punished for having a chance to get LOWER rarity.
    This is NOT WORKING AS INTENDED & it's UNFAIR.
    DLich
  • DLichDLich Member Posts: 5,526
    edited September 2017
    I guess the question I should be asking is “does the chance of a body shot happening ever exceed 100%”

    If it does not, then that would mean you have the same chance of a body shot at +5 (100%) as you do at +15 (100%).

    I will probably never complete the distance. And haven’t seen enough videos of players at the final few stages.

    I just find it hard to fathom that if at +5 RSL the chance of a body shot being 100% and I have gold piercing reducing it by 30% would bring it down to 70% and it’ll always be a maximum of 70%

    I’m wondering if any any point, if body shot chance hits let’s say 130% (I know.. my math brain doesn’t find it logical either) and you have gold piercing reducing it by 30% then it nets 100% chance and has no bearing on body shots because it’s still 100% (130% - 30% = 100%)

    If body shot chance increases as the rsl goes higher does there come a point when body shot chance increasing stops?

    I guess I’m just finding it hard to believe that if the odds of a body shot is normally 100% at rsl 27 that if I add gold piercing it’s reduced to 70% and thus only 70% of my hits would be body shots.

    30% piercing
    90% max crit chance.

    Out of 100 shots vs lvl 27+ walkers...

    70 will be body shots.
    27 will be crits
    3 will be normal.

    Anyone have 90% crit chance with gold piercing wanna test this theory?

    image
    | OG | NOC | USA | UK | CA | CQR | UC | RAD | ZEN |
    Other Leaders | Kick_ass | Pic | abailey362 | GunnerGaz | JMo2127 |
    MAVERICK'S 1 Million Star Club | OG | USA | NOC
    Analyze This with ALF4reals | v1 | v2 | v3 |
    | My YouTube Videos | My 1st Interview | Best Analogy Award!! |

    Freemium... the "mium" is latin for 'not really'
  • MonsutaMonsuta Member Posts: 1,168
    edited September 2017
    I think the bodyshot chance can exceed 130% to render 30% piercing useless, when seson 7b episode 11 Bad Neighborhood was available you closed the gate but the walkers keep spawning on the other side of the fence. I fired hundreds if not thousand of shots to those level 30+ walkers but I yet to got 1 non-bodyshot attack. Sadly NG fixed this once you closed the gate the spawn stop.

    Maybe @jimmorrison369 have a better idea of bodyshot chance.

    Edit: typo
    There is NO higher rarity when we use all legendary to craft the badge, we are being punished for having a chance to get LOWER rarity.
    This is NOT WORKING AS INTENDED & it's UNFAIR.
    jimmorrison369DLichCaptainslayer
  • jimmorrison369jimmorrison369 Member Posts: 1,853
    I did not do such a test as @Monsuta did. Yet. His findings however, do confirm my suspicion about body-shot%. Did you use piercing at the time @Monsuta ?
  • MonsutaMonsuta Member Posts: 1,168
    edited September 2017
    @jimmorrison369 Yep, I always equip my best ranged survivor with piercing weapon unless I want to boost Sasha's leader trait. I was not testing bodyshot by that time, it's just having fun to kill those high level walkers without fear of injury.
    There is NO higher rarity when we use all legendary to craft the badge, we are being punished for having a chance to get LOWER rarity.
    This is NOT WORKING AS INTENDED & it's UNFAIR.
  • DLichDLich Member Posts: 5,526
    edited September 2017
    Maybe that’s why that level was changed? I mean people have been conditioned to not kill past 100 walkers as it’s virtually useless. We all wondered why the infinite spawn was removed. Maybe that was the reason why. It’s a moot point but thank you for sharing that experience @Monsuta and @jimmorrison369

    image
    | OG | NOC | USA | UK | CA | CQR | UC | RAD | ZEN |
    Other Leaders | Kick_ass | Pic | abailey362 | GunnerGaz | JMo2127 |
    MAVERICK'S 1 Million Star Club | OG | USA | NOC
    Analyze This with ALF4reals | v1 | v2 | v3 |
    | My YouTube Videos | My 1st Interview | Best Analogy Award!! |

    Freemium... the "mium" is latin for 'not really'
  • TransmuteJunTransmuteJun Member Posts: 1,990
    It's not *completely* safe, but there is that great scavenge mission with the fence, where you have to go up and around, and can then kill the spawning walkers through the fence. I get up to level 30-32 walkers on that all of the time (starting at RSL 25 on a hard scavenge mission). You could certainly do your testing on that.
    DLichtabernacjimmorrison369Coon
  • MonsutaMonsuta Member Posts: 1,168
    The Distance is a good place to test it, if any LLS can do a normal attack on those walkers then bodyshot chance didn't exceed 100%.
    There is NO higher rarity when we use all legendary to craft the badge, we are being punished for having a chance to get LOWER rarity.
    This is NOT WORKING AS INTENDED & it's UNFAIR.
    jimmorrison369Pic
  • mik81mik81 Member Posts: 360
    Posted on the other thread. By I used lvl 14 Daryl with silver accuracy on a scavenger mission. Walkers were lvl 21 and beyond. I did like 6-7 attacks, all of them were body shoots but 1.

    So for testing it you just need a low level survivor with as much crit chance as you can get (Daryl would be a good leader) and keep him alive on a scavenger mission with 2 other guys protecting it. At some point you flee and the low lvl survivor goes to thee hospital.

    I got 1 non body shot attack with him and I didn't have any piercing. Would anyone please try to replicate the experiment?
    @Monsuta @Dlich @TransmuteJun @jimmorrison369
  • jimmorrison369jimmorrison369 Member Posts: 1,853
    I probably will do some testing tomorrow. I happen to have some time on hand. I'll try and find a high level distance mission where there are no spawns. Then just walk around and keep shooting.

    My plan is using an assault with sure-shot. For weapon I'll be using pierce 30%. I'll have sasha as leader standing in a corner somewhere. (To gather charge-points)

    So I'll test 2 things,
    using charge to determine the accurate percentage against high level walkers. (Assault charge is a guaranteed non-bodyshot).
    And if it is possible to have a non-bodyshot.

    My assault has only 35% accurate, this means that I expect to do a critical each 3 charge attacks.

    The non-bodyshot thing.. If pierce is 100%-30% Then I'll find out soon enough. (1 out of 4 should be a non-bodyshot).
    Then maybe I'll try up to 200 shots.


    Currently I'm predicting 100% body-shot.
    I think my accurate will be 45% (shreevie said there is a 10% inherent critical chance).

    Furthermore, my theory is that critical is 90% when you attack low level walkers, then this number gets smaller for each higher level walker, but stays at a minimum of 10%. Then your accurate/sureshot gets added to it.
    mik81DLichMonsutaCaptainslayer
  • mik81mik81 Member Posts: 360
    Hi @jimmorrison369 would it be possible also that you check if you can get a non body shoot without piercing in the same scenario?

    I got it, and I'm planning to replicate the experiment with my low lvl Daryl against walkers that are 7 lvls above him with no piercing, since we have 1 minute gas and I don't mind having Daryl at the hospital. I did also some testing here: forums.nextgames.com/walkingdead/discussion/29830/body-shots-and-critical-hit#latest

    You may like to check it
  • DLichDLich Member Posts: 5,526
    edited September 2017
    Assault charge ability is a guaranteed non body shot?



    I knew hunter was guaranteed crit but is assault a guaranteed non body shot? Are all survivors abilities no body shots?

    Edit* I misread. You’re testing if it’s possible not that it’s true.

    image
    | OG | NOC | USA | UK | CA | CQR | UC | RAD | ZEN |
    Other Leaders | Kick_ass | Pic | abailey362 | GunnerGaz | JMo2127 |
    MAVERICK'S 1 Million Star Club | OG | USA | NOC
    Analyze This with ALF4reals | v1 | v2 | v3 |
    | My YouTube Videos | My 1st Interview | Best Analogy Award!! |

    Freemium... the "mium" is latin for 'not really'
  • jimmorrison369jimmorrison369 Member Posts: 1,853
    @mik81
    Thanks, I'll check that out. Seems like I was missing the party there.

    About your request, I might do that BUT if 30% pierce has 0 body-shot...
    Then testing without pierce seems not needed.
  • JayZJayZ Member Posts: 3,131
    @DLich I can confirm that an Assault charged attack is a guaranteed non-body shot. I've observed this over the course of 4-5 challenges where I consistently get to RSL28 and am using 2-pink Assaults with and without Piercing.
    Elder in Legacy Eh, a top 10 global Challenge and Guild Wars guild
    PM me or visit this link to join the Eh family!
    Visit this link for my Distance and Challenge strategy videos
    DLich
  • jimmorrison369jimmorrison369 Member Posts: 1,853
    @DLich
    No I'm definitely saying assault has a guaranteed non-bodyshot charge.

    Stun wouldn't work if it didn't.

    But besides that, really non-bodyshot 100% of the time.
    DLich
  • DLichDLich Member Posts: 5,526
    edited September 2017
    Duh... I had a brain fart there for a minute.

    I know the attack stuns but never paid attention to the damage output.

    So technically, using assault boost on a fattie might logically make sense because it will be a non body shot hit even if it doesn't stun them. Good to know considering I've been playing for almost 2 years and never realized that.

    *edit. I have never attempted to use an assault charge on a tank because I figured it wouldn't matter anyway. Apparently it does matter.. IE it will be a non body shot hit rather than a probable body shot hit.

    I thought stun only stunned. When you think about it logically it makes sense, if it's a body shot it can't stun

    image
    | OG | NOC | USA | UK | CA | CQR | UC | RAD | ZEN |
    Other Leaders | Kick_ass | Pic | abailey362 | GunnerGaz | JMo2127 |
    MAVERICK'S 1 Million Star Club | OG | USA | NOC
    Analyze This with ALF4reals | v1 | v2 | v3 |
    | My YouTube Videos | My 1st Interview | Best Analogy Award!! |

    Freemium... the "mium" is latin for 'not really'
    jimmorrison369bigbeano
  • mik81mik81 Member Posts: 360
    I'm pretty sure that any charge attack "negates" a body shoot. I mean if it is a charge attack a body shoot roll doesn't happen. And that is why you stunt or crit, etc...
    jimmorrison369David_H79Putchuco
  • jimmorrison369jimmorrison369 Member Posts: 1,853
    DLich said:

    When you think about it logically it makes sense, if it's a body shot it can't stun

    Yup, that's the problem bruisers have.
  • HelioHelio Member Posts: 522
    I had the opposite experience on the closing the gate mission than Monsuta.

    I was trying to determine the value of piercing, so I took 2 hunters to that mission and noticed that the hunter that didn't have piercing, body shots was 100% of the time vs lvl 30 walkers, and the one with piercing got critical hits here and there. So I concluded that piercing is a required trait for a ranged weapon.

    DLichMonsuta
  • TransmuteJunTransmuteJun Member Posts: 1,990
    I thought the first 'free' shot on a shooter charged attack was also a guaranteed critical?
  • MonsutaMonsuta Member Posts: 1,168
    @Helio Interesting result, no doubt piercing is a must against high level walker. But why my experience different from yours?
    The only reason I can think of might be once in a time there's a bug which wearing bulletproof armor cause bodyshot 100%, I can't remember did my survivors wear those by that time or not.
    There is NO higher rarity when we use all legendary to craft the badge, we are being punished for having a chance to get LOWER rarity.
    This is NOT WORKING AS INTENDED & it's UNFAIR.
  • MonsutaMonsuta Member Posts: 1,168
    @TransmuteJun Shooter, scout & hunter charged attack have guaranteed critical hit.
    There is NO higher rarity when we use all legendary to craft the badge, we are being punished for having a chance to get LOWER rarity.
    This is NOT WORKING AS INTENDED & it's UNFAIR.
  • mik81mik81 Member Posts: 360
    Can we agree then that on high RSLs on shooter, scouts and hunters you won't stack crit chance, but crit damage and damage?. And most likely sure shot won't be a nice trait for them either? Ruthless, marksman, luck, revenge would be the most desirable ones, and as 5th dodge, iron skin, defensive stance (for damage mitigation) although at those lvls you'll be insta dead or insta struggling...

    Assaults would be a nice class to have crit chance + crit dmg, when you are getting body shoots specially if you can use Sasha to help them charging fast. Sure shot, marksman, ruthless, iron skin luck the dream, and you could change iron skin for other mitigating trait.
    Warrior would be also a decent class to have crit chance + crit dmg.. the only problem there is to get 3 charges without kissing the floor....


  • DLichDLich Member Posts: 5,526
    In game says only hunters have guaranteed crits. Has anyone seen any dev or admin say otherwise?

    image
    | OG | NOC | USA | UK | CA | CQR | UC | RAD | ZEN |
    Other Leaders | Kick_ass | Pic | abailey362 | GunnerGaz | JMo2127 |
    MAVERICK'S 1 Million Star Club | OG | USA | NOC
    Analyze This with ALF4reals | v1 | v2 | v3 |
    | My YouTube Videos | My 1st Interview | Best Analogy Award!! |

    Freemium... the "mium" is latin for 'not really'
  • mik81mik81 Member Posts: 360
    You are right @Dlich in game help sucks... I saw when the game is charging a text saying that the shooter charge attack is also a crit attack. On scouts I don't think I've seen it in writing but if you pay attention you'll see that is always a crit attack.

  • abailey362abailey362 Member Posts: 304
    DLich said:

    In game says only hunters have guaranteed crits. Has anyone seen any dev or admin say otherwise?

    I have not seen anyone post it, but have been watching it for months now. My assaults always crit hit on a charge attack, no matter what enemy. If it's a fatty or spiker, you get the "stun avoided" message after the critical hit message pops up.

    i do remember a while back that NG confirmed that assault charge attacks deal only 90% of damage, but Ruthless negates the affect. I don't know if the ruthless gain is added before or after the 10% reduction, but it still guarantees a critical hit and does more than 100% damage.
    abailey362 - TheHerdReturned - part of #THR Family



  • jimmorrison369jimmorrison369 Member Posts: 1,853

    My assaults always crit hit on a charge attack

    Please define "always", or rather reevaluate that observation.
    I think you just have high critical chance on your survivor.
    90% max = 90% max. So "always" seems impossible to me. But 90% is pretty high and if you hit 10 walkers at once, on average 9 of them will get a critical hit.
    Wich might feel like "always".

    I don't know if the ruthless gain is added before or after the 10% reduction, but it still guarantees a critical hit and does more than 100% damage.

    Ruthless compensates for the lower damage yes, but doesn't do anything about the chances.

    I have an assault with low % critical chance, it definitely is not 100% critical on charge attacks.


    I_Am_PsychoDBones
  • I_Am_PsychoI_Am_Psycho Member Posts: 1,431
    DLich said:

    In game says only hunters have guaranteed crits. Has anyone seen any dev or admin say otherwise?

    @DLich - apparently shooters as well


    Last Stand BE recruitment

    Last Stand BE have 4 places available for genuine GW players.

    I can be contacted by PM for recruitment questions.
    DLich
Sign In or Register to comment.