@tabernac thx much for starting a fruitful discussion on the subject. I do wish we all had done that from the very beginning, but that is surely not on you.
I also appreciate all those that gave the need for change, the proposed change and possible alternatives a bit more time to digest. The topic is not easy and neither my proposal nor the incoming change will satisfy us all IMHO.
I would think a lot of us would welcome any change that makes the high-lvl game more tactical while also removing the non-sensical limitless instakill through wrestling.
My understanding is that the incoming change of wrestling is intended to add another tactical component, ie having one of your survivors wrestle while the other two can chime in and attack the wrestling walker, opening crates or defending against incoming enemies. As @rfg1982 has stated above I can't make an assessment if this will work and add said tactical component without actually trying it out. With the current map design and a LOT of incoming walkers I don't think we will have a lot of luck surviving the onslaught of another wave while having one (or maybe even two) wrestling.
My intent with the proposed solution (of adding a chance of failure for every level difference between survivor and walker) was to keep wrestling as an option in the high-lvl gameplay, but render it useless for very high differences. One could argue a lot which level difference should be used as cutoff. If the cutoff would be below what you can 'do' with normal weapons and tactics, we don't need and wont use it, right?
Some have posted in this thread a good point where we need something like wrestling that can help us to survive very tight end-game missions. Getting killed at the very end again and again is quite frustrating. Could this maybe be the introduction of the modified mission success used in The Distance, where only one survivor needs to get to the exit? Maybe NG tested this new concept out in the Distance first and is planning to introduce this now to the challenges.
Re map-redesigns: I really hope a change of wrestling trait will result in changes to a lot of our maps. Enemy levels can come down (Distance) and we can do without facing TONS of enemies, because that only favors assault/hunter teams.
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It’s sad that the solution was to nerf Wrestler (and arbitrarily Stun Resistance as well) rather than make improvements to the Distance.
Why not limit the number of survivors you can take in to the Distance to say, 20?
Why not design the maps better and add more varied objectives?
Why not use freemen centered missions? I know I used 7 Bruisers and 8 Assaults to get past one of the freemen missions two weeks ago because it was tough escaping the hoard, hoping for good spawn points, and staying alive while the walkers strugglwd with freemen. That wasn’t LLS, the was luck and strategy.
Any of these things could have fixed the LLS issue. Nerfing the trait is the lazy and easy way out.
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I do wish we all had done that from the very beginning, but that is surely not on you.
I also appreciate all those that gave the need for change, the proposed change and possible alternatives a bit more time to digest.
The topic is not easy and neither my proposal nor the incoming change will satisfy us all IMHO.
I would think a lot of us would welcome any change that makes the high-lvl game more tactical while also removing the non-sensical limitless instakill through wrestling.
My understanding is that the incoming change of wrestling is intended to add another tactical component, ie having one of your survivors wrestle while the other two can chime in and attack the wrestling walker, opening crates or defending against incoming enemies. As @rfg1982 has stated above I can't make an assessment if this will work and add said tactical component without actually trying it out.
With the current map design and a LOT of incoming walkers I don't think we will have a lot of luck surviving the onslaught of another wave while having one (or maybe even two) wrestling.
My intent with the proposed solution (of adding a chance of failure for every level difference between survivor and walker) was to keep wrestling as an option in the high-lvl gameplay, but render it useless for very high differences. One could argue a lot which level difference should be used as cutoff. If the cutoff would be below what you can 'do' with normal weapons and tactics, we don't need and wont use it, right?
Some have posted in this thread a good point where we need something like wrestling that can help us to survive very tight end-game missions. Getting killed at the very end again and again is quite frustrating. Could this maybe be the introduction of the modified mission success used in The Distance, where only one survivor needs to get to the exit? Maybe NG tested this new concept out in the Distance first and is planning to introduce this now to the challenges.
Re map-redesigns: I really hope a change of wrestling trait will result in changes to a lot of our maps. Enemy levels can come down (Distance) and we can do without facing TONS of enemies, because that only favors assault/hunter teams.
contact us via email at [email protected]
Why not limit the number of survivors you can take in to the Distance to say, 20?
Why not design the maps better and add more varied objectives?
Why not use freemen centered missions? I know I used 7 Bruisers and 8 Assaults to get past one of the freemen missions two weeks ago because it was tough escaping the hoard, hoping for good spawn points, and staying alive while the walkers strugglwd with freemen. That wasn’t LLS, the was luck and strategy.
Any of these things could have fixed the LLS issue. Nerfing the trait is the lazy and easy way out.
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