Well don't forget rollback during challenge cause they messed up in TG shop which cost some players gas and the compensation was less than gas used, and the mess up during ultimate challenge week where players including myself loss a rp and they compensated everybody so folks who got screwed out of a pass didnt truely get compensated for that as it was a community award, made me feel alienated.
A question, @Teeceezy. If it's been determined by data that a majority of players didn't like the Ultimate Challenge format, where does that data come from? We certainly don't see it here in the forums. Is it on Twitter? Facebook? Spending trends? Just curious.
It's a combination of social media contacts, player support messages, and looking at the data of how players acted during the challenge event. We saw drops across the board in missions played and won [as expected], but also drops in missions played in other game modes, numbers of challenge missions that were tried and lost [which showed that on average, players did not try to reach higher difficulties], logins, and session length. We also ran those numbers for just players at CL 20+, alongside the set that we checked for the playerbase as a whole, and the results were about the same.
We had hoped that players would play more missions at or near their highest-ever difficulty. While some certainly did, most stopped at the same difficulty they usually stop at. We had hoped that the Saturday Distance event would have been played more, but it was actually played about the same. We had hoped that players who use Challenge for resource gathering would switch to Scavenges, but they didn't.
A permanent change will be announced as such, and we'll have a couple more tries at slightly different "Ultimate Challenge" events. I'm thinking that we can do one in the next 2-4 weeks, and if it works [or at least pleases some players without pissing other off], we could run it on a regular rotation [every other? every third?] until the opportunity arises to make that set of permanent changes.
I personally had a ton of fun with it, and set a new difficulty record for myself. I truly believe and understand the feelings and opinions here. It's just one of those things that can't happen instantly. I appreciate the fervor and I feel like our goals are aligned. It'll get there, so long as we're all still looking for the answers.
Development Team Member - The Walking Dead: No Man's Land Please note: Development is a fluid process, and suggestions and implementation take time and iteration. Any discussion of future features, deadlines, updates, balance changes, and such should be considered prospective and subject to change.
> @crambert_nec said:
> Yeah, I'm calling BS on the "alienating a lot of the player base" excuse. NG sure as hell wasn't concerned with that when they nerfed lucky, dodge, interrupt, silenced, wrestler, and stun resistance (am I forgetting any?)
It was the best of times, it was the worst of times, it was the age of wisdom, it was the age of foolishness, it was the epoch of belief, it was the epoch of incredulity, it was the season of Light, it was the season of Darkness, it was the spring of hope, it was the winter of despair, we had everything before us, we had nothing before us, we were all going direct to Heaven, we were all going direct the other way – in short, the period was so far like the present period, that some of its noisiest authorities insisted on its being received, for good or for evil, in the superlative degree of comparison only.
This is a story of two players, zbot (player level 66 soon to be 67) and notzot (player level 38). Both played the Ultimate Challenge but had different views:
How did you like the Ultimate Challenge?
zbot: The faster progression and adjustment to round passes actually made me want to push more, I normally stop around 5-6 round passes but this time went for 7. I could have gone for more but that's a limitation on myself (waiting for gas or waiting for survivors to heal). Assaults are my best class and I actually had max level gear for them.
notzbot: I just finished story mode to unlock assaults so my assaults are are Heroes (Governor, Rufus, Rosita, and Abe; none higher than rares). The faster progression had me playing way less than I usually do because of the following, once I hit higher RSL and got injured, it severely limited my overall game play since my survivors were too weak for the Distance, I can finish 1-2 in normal and that's about it since my roster is limited and my survivors are lower level (5-10). Also injured for scavenge missions so it came down to playing a challenge mission and waiting for my survivors to heal and watching gas accumulate and unused. I can see how other lower level players would be frustrated at this higher progression. For lower level players such as myself, the grind is normal play. While end gamers want the grind reduced, it it's reduced to the point where lower level players can't play then the Challenge needs to be revised.
Similar to @MadPuppy just my views from 2 different perspectives.
So that nobody is alienated, why not do what you did for the Distance have 2 modes of the weekly challenge, the Guild Leader picks the mode the mode the guild competes in for the week. What if it worked and everybody got what they wanted, would be pretty good times.
> @Shteevie said:
> A question, @Teeceezy. If it's been determined by data that a majority of players didn't like the Ultimate Challenge format, where does that data come from? We certainly don't see it here in the forums. Is it on Twitter? Facebook? Spending trends? Just curious.
>
> It's a combination of social media contacts, player support messages, and looking at the data of how players acted during the challenge event. We saw drops across the board in missions played and won [as expected], but also drops in missions played in other game modes, numbers of challenge missions that were tried and lost [which showed that on average, players did not try to reach higher difficulties], logins, and session length. We also ran those numbers for just players at CL 20+, alongside the set that we checked for the playerbase as a whole, and the results were about the same.
>
> We had hoped that players would play more missions at or near their highest-ever difficulty. While some certainly did, most stopped at the same difficulty they usually stop at. We had hoped that the Saturday Distance event would have been played more, but it was actually played about the same. We had hoped that players who use Challenge for resource gathering would switch to Scavenges, but they didn't.
>
> A permanent change will be announced as such, and we'll have a couple more tries at slightly different "Ultimate Challenge" events. I'm thinking that we can do one in the next 2-4 weeks, and if it works [or at least pleases some players without pissing other off], we could run it on a regular rotation [every other? every third?] until the opportunity arises to make that set of permanent changes.
>
> I personally had a ton of fun with it, and set a new difficulty record for myself. I truly believe and understand the feelings and opinions here. It's just one of those things that can't happen instantly. I appreciate the fervor and I feel like our goals are aligned. It'll get there, so long as we're all still looking for the answers.
Let me see if I got this right:
The Ultimate Challenge didn’t change any player behavior, but some were “alienated” (whatever the hell that means). Some people liked it as evidenced on the Forum. But, they didn’t change their behavior either.
But, we are going back to the previous format and expecting the same behavior as before.
So, if the Ultimate Challenge didn’t really do anything in terms of how people play the game, then it is not being made permanent because of people who didn’t like it AND who didn’t do anything different in how they played the game.
Am I getting this right? If the Ultimate Challenge had no impact in how people play the game, then why not keep it? What an I missing here?
> @Shteevie
> We had hoped that players would play more missions at or near their highest-ever difficulty. While some certainly did, most stopped at the same difficulty they usually stop at. We had hoped that the Saturday Distance event would have been played more, but it was actually played about the same. We had hoped that players who use Challenge for resource gathering would switch to Scavenges, but they didn't.
Well, I think that would change a couple of weeks in if you implement it on a regular basis since all of us are so frickin’ tired of the grind right now. Maybe people just took the opportunity to enjoy things they don’t usually have time with? Atleast I did.
I played to my limits but still had a ton of time over for family and hobbies, which was kind of weird tbh, it took a good minute or two to figure out what kind of hobbies I had before the autistic grinding Point is, I came back refreshed and was stoked for the next challenge. However, after one day of the grind I was back to the feeling that I had before ultimate challenge.
A question, @Teeceezy. If it's been determined by data that a majority of players didn't like the Ultimate Challenge format, where does that data come from? We certainly don't see it here in the forums. Is it on Twitter? Facebook? Spending trends? Just curious.
It's a combination of social media contacts, player support messages, and looking at the data of how players acted during the challenge event. We saw drops across the board in missions played and won [as expected], but also drops in missions played in other game modes, numbers of challenge missions that were tried and lost [which showed that on average, players did not try to reach higher difficulties], logins, and session length. We also ran those numbers for just players at CL 20+, alongside the set that we checked for the playerbase as a whole, and the results were about the same.
We had hoped that players would play more missions at or near their highest-ever difficulty. While some certainly did, most stopped at the same difficulty they usually stop at. We had hoped that the Saturday Distance event would have been played more, but it was actually played about the same. We had hoped that players who use Challenge for resource gathering would switch to Scavenges, but they didn't.
A permanent change will be announced as such, and we'll have a couple more tries at slightly different "Ultimate Challenge" events. I'm thinking that we can do one in the next 2-4 weeks, and if it works [or at least pleases some players without pissing other off], we could run it on a regular rotation [every other? every third?] until the opportunity arises to make that set of permanent changes.
I personally had a ton of fun with it, and set a new difficulty record for myself. I truly believe and understand the feelings and opinions here. It's just one of those things that can't happen instantly. I appreciate the fervor and I feel like our goals are aligned. It'll get there, so long as we're all still looking for the answers.
Some things to consider that no data and/or spreadsheet will ever answer you:
- Hospital sucks. Waiting 2:15 hs and spending 25+ gold per character is only for the extreme hardcore and having a full hospital puts a moat in Challenge progression. Most had their hospitals full earlier and only a few of the players I know actually spend gold to progress consistently, choosing to simply wait instead; - Scavenge missions sucks; - Many players took Ultimate Challenge week to rest. We can't stand the grind anymore and me and many others simply rushed early on to take a break during the weekend; - "The Distance" twice a week is killing everyone's interest. Rewards are nice but there's no room / time for more grinding. It puts pressure into development an resource management. "Having to" play it stresses players.
Try to stop looking into data as the ultimate truth. It's just numbers and no human is made of numbers.
Thanks for looking into it but also consider that you have taken too much time to solve this issue. You guys need to take actions now. Not in update 3.2.
> @crambert_nec said:
> Yeah, I'm calling BS on the "alienating a lot of the player base" excuse. NG sure as hell wasn't concerned with that when they nerfed lucky, dodge, interrupt, silenced, wrestler, and stun resistance (am I forgetting any?)
Talking out of both sides of their mouth aren't they. These "alienated" players are the same lot that voted for jackpot weekend right? I'm coming to the conclusion that they dont exist and are made up
Maybe people didn’t go much further because they are worn out!!! They were so thankful to make it to where they got before that they decided to relax for once, see some sun, play with their kids, sleep etc.
why is it NG thinks if people don’t play 24/7 365 days a year that it’s a bad thing? People won’t burn out and give up out of boredom! Why is forcing us to be bored 90% of the way to get to 10% of fun a good model to return to @Teeceezy? How is that not blatant alienation and a model doomed to burn people out? I can’t devote that much of my life to this game. Especially when you don’t even bother to make it fun for 90% of the challenge? I question more and more each week why I continue to play. If that’s the direction we are headed count me out. How do you address the endless boredom? How
Do you justify expecting us to play so much as your game model? How many hours do you really expect us to play each week? Is that even reasonable?
Well, I am a player with level 23, level 17 and level 12 survivors (3 accounts as you might be able to tell).
And I had fun with the challenge on all of my accounts - and had time and gas to do something else.
You know... I think I know why players didn't play other game modes besides of the challenge when they had enough gas and free time: 1. people were glad to have a bit of a holiday of sorts 2. people have forgotten that there are modes besides of the challenges because challenges take up almost all of the time spent playing
Leader of Morbid Sinners and Morbid Spirits
Morbid Survivors are looking for you! If you are looking for a new guild, PM me.
I spent most of the gas and a dozen of time into challenge and just reached 1000 stars.
In fact it's boring because there were no walker can survive when I pull the trigger.
"no strategy,no thiking,just fire"
Let's start it from +1 round~~
Suffer at the beginning,no more grinding.
I would be surprised if not all mid- to high- level players are severely burned out by the current challenge system. We/they feel obligated to their respective guilds to go through with. But, the grind is taking its toll and will eventually wipe out our interest for the game.
Adding the Distance made it more difficult than it already was. Now adding the Daily Quests? Who has time (and gas) to do all that?? We are already playing 4-6 hrs per day!
This is not relaxing and/or a nice friendly competition anymore, it is a second (unpaid) job.
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Then can we go back to pre 2.8? For endgamers with level 23 toons, start the challenge at RSL 16 and triple from 22. This would result in 8 less challenge rounds for endgamers and the not endgamers would see no difference. Additional raise the amount of round passes to 1 every 3 or 4 rounds. Like @Bill_ZRT has suggested, make them optional. This way players who wants to reach higher levels, can progress faster and players who like the low challenge levels can enjoy them.
I also want to suggest a reduction in gas costs for challenge missions. The way where the challenge is now, makes it impossible for FTP to reach interesting stages.
We lost one player yesterday due to time commitment of the challenge mode. Almost a second, but he decided in the last second to stay. Unfortunatley the loss in good players is real.
The Ultimate Challenge didn’t change any player behavior, but some were “alienated” (whatever the hell that means). Some people liked it as evidenced on the Forum. But, they didn’t change their behavior either.
Am I getting this right?
-Almost right. The event did change behavior - people played less. For some, this was less than they wanted to, and so they felt like the game was preventing them from playing more, especially the parts they enjoyed the most.
An event where some people enjoyed playing less, but others were frustrated that they were forced to play less is not a success when the goal was to encourage people to play as much or more of the parts they like the most.
It's my current understanding that the players here enjoy the tougher missions, and enjoy seeing where their power can get them, but do not enjoy grinding through trivially easy levels, or playing any difficulty over and over again too many times. However, an awful lot of players who are not at the end level depend on those easy missions for the rewards and to have anything to play at all, and so restricting them from getting those early missions is literally taking the game away from them.
Having two separate challenges doesn't really work for us because of the way guilds are scored; what happens when I'm a "hardcore" player who is in a guild that has chosen the "casual" mode? What if my guild boots me because I selected toe setting that differed from everyone else? By common sense, players would assume that "hardcore" players would have a higher possible star earnings potential, and so anyone who wanted to help their guild the most would be pressured directly or indirectly into choosing "hardcore" even if they personally wanted more easy rounds instead. It's very tricky; one of the reasons those more casual players value the stars so much is because they are the same stars the veteran players are earning; they get to stand in that same leaderboard and "play in the big leagues"; even though they know they will be outscored, they still feel like they competed or helped their team.
Development Team Member - The Walking Dead: No Man's Land Please note: Development is a fluid process, and suggestions and implementation take time and iteration. Any discussion of future features, deadlines, updates, balance changes, and such should be considered prospective and subject to change.
@Shteevie said: It's my current understanding that the players here enjoy the tougher missions, and enjoy seeing where their power can get them, but do not enjoy grinding through trivially easy levels, or playing any difficulty over and over again too many times. However, an awful lot of players who are not at the end level depend on those easy missions for the rewards and to have anything to play at all, and so restricting them from getting those early missions is literally taking the game away from them.
No one is taking those supplies or reward crates away, just repeat the missions. You should realize this and communicate it to the people who don't understand enough about the game to know that they are not being ripped off.
Not getting as many stars as before? Explain it to the players that feel negatively about this and they will respond better. Or just double the star count for the entirety of the mission--no more discrepancy.
Also, the point of a successful game is not equal to the amount of time players are engaging. The week of the ultimate challenge I was able to play other game modes and have a break from the unending grind. A game with mindless, endless grind needs to be tweaked, first in the short term, and then in the long term. This past week I barely got any enjoyment from the game and I know I'm not the only one.
You have no problems implementing across the board actions that upset a lot of people (nerfing luck and dodge, nerfing wrestler, nerfing stun resist...). You know the right way forward is to lessen the grind. Just do it. I'm not the only one hear seeing players drop off the map because of this, and it's a major issue.
The Ultimate Challenge didn’t change any player behavior, but some were “alienated” (whatever the hell that means). Some people liked it as evidenced on the Forum. But, they didn’t change their behavior either.
Am I getting this right?
-Almost right. The event did change behavior - people played less. For some, this was less than they wanted to, and so they felt like the game was preventing them from playing more, especially the parts they enjoyed the most.
An event where some people enjoyed playing less, but others were frustrated that they were forced to play less is not a success when the goal was to encourage people to play as much or more of the parts they like the most.
It's my current understanding that the players here enjoy the tougher missions, and enjoy seeing where their power can get them, but do not enjoy grinding through trivially easy levels, or playing any difficulty over and over again too many times. However, an awful lot of players who are not at the end level depend on those easy missions for the rewards and to have anything to play at all, and so restricting them from getting those early missions is literally taking the game away from them.
Having two separate challenges doesn't really work for us because of the way guilds are scored; what happens when I'm a "hardcore" player who is in a guild that has chosen the "casual" mode? What if my guild boots me because I selected toe setting that differed from everyone else? By common sense, players would assume that "hardcore" players would have a higher possible star earnings potential, and so anyone who wanted to help their guild the most would be pressured directly or indirectly into choosing "hardcore" even if they personally wanted more easy rounds instead. It's very tricky; one of the reasons those more casual players value the stars so much is because they are the same stars the veteran players are earning; they get to stand in that same leaderboard and "play in the big leagues"; even though they know they will be outscored, they still feel like they competed or helped their team.
As a player I understand your problem as the company/developer etc.
However, there's a lot of solutions that any kid with minimal gaming experience can propose. And please DON'T use handicap to "solve" this. It almost killed my game some months ago.
I think we all can move the discussion into solutions now that you exposed your problem too. My biggest pain here is TIME. We can't waste more time and let this damage the players more. We have to look into simple and fast solutions. If not permanent, at least temporary. But towards easing the burden as fast as possible.
A while ago I mentioned these three tweaks. You could probably do them immediately:
- Raise starting RSL from 14 to 15 (for players with max lvl survivors 23/22/21/20); - Remove the time lock (at least while under Round Passes); - Change "The Distance" schedule to once a week, with a subtle longer duration, during Mon - Wed when there isn't a Challenge going on.
Please allow me to add @painwalker suggestion to change Round Passes from 5 to 3. This is also very simple and can be done instantly. Even before next Challenge.
The point of ending the grind within challenges means 'we don't have to spend so much time just on the challenge"
Therefore we can play other game modes or take a break from the game here n there. ie "Have a life outside the game as well as enjoy the game."
But from what I read it seems NGs goal is solely to get players to play more. And to do this, it seems they're forcing players who want to be competitive to do just that.
Sure "forcing" may seem like a strong word to use but in order to be competitive, you must play endless hours of challenge missions that have no fun or strategy involved.
There's enough need to play other modes of the game to level up, collect equipment, badges etc. Now it seems it's like this in every part of the game.
I thought the new daily quests sounded like a good idea but it appears now as only an attempt to make players play more.
What NG is failing to see in there data is all those players who have recently left or soon to leave the game.
I don't know how else to put it so I'll say it as simple as I can.
"IMO if NG does not make a change to end the gind within the challenge mode many players will leave. Once guilds begin to fracture, more and more will leave."
@Shteevie If players want to play more rounds, then they can simply keep replaying them until they have had enough. Players like myself that have to wade through dozens of maps before the game gets challenging, have only one alternative, which is to do what I have done, and retire from competitive (pay to) play.
Do something with the round passes if the challenge it self wont be changed, Please.
Thank you!
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Now that lots of top players are retiring from challenges and joining my 'retired' guild family to wait for better challenge days, could we agree on few top guilds that remain and the few players from other guilds who still enjoy the grind, are merged to these. You can still remain connected via Line chat or similar..
I've had the same discussion before - as it is now, players are forced to play the challenge and invest a lot of time to get to the interesting part if they even make it that far.
But no one but the other players themselves are stopping themselves from playing.
You are right now alienating players who seemingly understand the game and who are fighting to keep it alive, contribute to the guilds, the forum etc. so as not to alienate casual players who might quit once they get to the point where NML becomes a part-time job.
Why not give players round passes every 3 rounds and let them decide whether to use them or not? The people who want to play more challenge rounds can grind their hearts out and those who are burning out right now might be saved, too.
You could even let players decide how many of their passes they want to use. 1,2,3...all of them. Unused ones get discarded as usual.
That should at least be a good solution for the time being until there is a permanent fix that makes everyone happy (though I don't believe that solution exists, but yeah...).
Leader of Morbid Sinners and Morbid Spirits
Morbid Survivors are looking for you! If you are looking for a new guild, PM me.
Back in the day stars used to mean how far we got in the challenge. Then the update came and we started at different levels. Some starting lower got more stars so you tried to “fix” that. I think the problem was using a star system in the first place. Make the guild score the final level we get to. 28.3 for instance. Give a bonus for all levels completed with no injury. Add up all the individuals for the final guild score. Guild scores become real at that point. We still try to push as far as we can.
Remember when 205 stars was considered great? It didn’t take all week to complete the challenge. That’s the solution. Make the challenge more real. Focus on improving outposts and the distance. Have special events. Make the distance have better prizes. Make scavenging missions interesting and fun and not a ridiculous gas cost.
Sure people are playing more right now. But playing and having fun aren’t the same. When a game becomes more work then fun it starts to die. That’s the direction you are heading right now.
...this is getting sick. I believe that it's all about "earnings"...obviously the game is their work and probably earnings from new players are much more than earnings from few maxed players.
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After having several more days to think about this.. I actually want to thank NG for not making this permanent! Blessing in disguise I suppose!
Because of this, I will save so much money by retiring from challenges and will be able to spoil my girls just a little bit more this Christmas.. with gifts and my time!
⚔️ Leader/Elder TheHerdReborn/TheHerdReturned⚔️ 🌟IGN: Rene 🌟 Line ID: Mystique_01
It's a combination of social media contacts, player support messages, and looking at the data of how players acted during the challenge event. We saw drops across the board in missions played and won [as expected], but also drops in missions played in other game modes, numbers of challenge missions that were tried and lost [which showed that on average, players did not try to reach higher difficulties], logins, and session length. We also ran those numbers for just players at CL 20+, alongside the set that we checked for the playerbase as a whole, and the results were about the same.
We had hoped that players would play more missions at or near their highest-ever difficulty. While some certainly did, most stopped at the same difficulty they usually stop at. We had hoped that the Saturday Distance event would have been played more, but it was actually played about the same. We had hoped that players who use Challenge for resource gathering would switch to Scavenges, but they didn't.
Easy solution... reduce the gas costs permanently for these missions. 6 gas for a scavenge mission is scandalous. The only time I ever play The Distance or Scavenge is when we have 1-minute or 5-minute gas. With the new Quest system coming in as well, how are we supposed to fit in all these modes when we only have a limited amount of gas?
@Teeceezy@Shteevie You think that the same level of players were playing the ultimate challenge and you were hoping to have had more interest. Maybe you should of ran the ultimate challenge for a month so old players or retired players could of tried it also, which i could guarantee that they would have come back? One time isn't sufficient enough for older players to try it?
I'm losing my players left right and centre, we are a family and it kills them to leave but they are sick of the grind they are in my vacation guild sitting at zero stars. Like previous players have mentioned, you will see a big drop in players leaving. From NG point of view I get that you didn't make as much money because of gas, but if it carries on you will see that money situation fall more because of retired players. Ng will realise this when its too late and their profits drop, all for the sake of being money mad and not listening to players.
Comments
We had hoped that players would play more missions at or near their highest-ever difficulty. While some certainly did, most stopped at the same difficulty they usually stop at. We had hoped that the Saturday Distance event would have been played more, but it was actually played about the same. We had hoped that players who use Challenge for resource gathering would switch to Scavenges, but they didn't.
A permanent change will be announced as such, and we'll have a couple more tries at slightly different "Ultimate Challenge" events. I'm thinking that we can do one in the next 2-4 weeks, and if it works [or at least pleases some players without pissing other off], we could run it on a regular rotation [every other? every third?] until the opportunity arises to make that set of permanent changes.
I personally had a ton of fun with it, and set a new difficulty record for myself. I truly believe and understand the feelings and opinions here. It's just one of those things that can't happen instantly. I appreciate the fervor and I feel like our goals are aligned. It'll get there, so long as we're all still looking for the answers.
Please note: Development is a fluid process, and suggestions and implementation take time and iteration. Any discussion of future features, deadlines, updates, balance changes, and such should be considered prospective and subject to change.
> Yeah, I'm calling BS on the "alienating a lot of the player base" excuse. NG sure as hell wasn't concerned with that when they nerfed lucky, dodge, interrupt, silenced, wrestler, and stun resistance (am I forgetting any?)
I Recokon’ there are other examples.
To borrow from Charles Dickens:
It was the best of times, it was the worst of times, it was the age of wisdom, it was the age of foolishness, it was the epoch of belief, it was the epoch of incredulity, it was the season of Light, it was the season of Darkness, it was the spring of hope, it was the winter of despair, we had everything before us, we had nothing before us, we were all going direct to Heaven, we were all going direct the other way – in short, the period was so far like the present period, that some of its noisiest authorities insisted on its being received, for good or for evil, in the superlative degree of comparison only.
This is a story of two players, zbot (player level 66 soon to be 67) and notzot (player level 38). Both played the Ultimate Challenge but had different views:
How did you like the Ultimate Challenge?
zbot: The faster progression and adjustment to round passes actually made me want to push more, I normally stop around 5-6 round passes but this time went for 7. I could have gone for more but that's a limitation on myself (waiting for gas or waiting for survivors to heal). Assaults are my best class and I actually had max level gear for them.
notzbot: I just finished story mode to unlock assaults so my assaults are are Heroes (Governor, Rufus, Rosita, and Abe; none higher than rares). The faster progression had me playing way less than I usually do because of the following, once I hit higher RSL and got injured, it severely limited my overall game play since my survivors were too weak for the Distance, I can finish 1-2 in normal and that's about it since my roster is limited and my survivors are lower level (5-10). Also injured for scavenge missions so it came down to playing a challenge mission and waiting for my survivors to heal and watching gas accumulate and unused. I can see how other lower level players would be frustrated at this higher progression. For lower level players such as myself, the grind is normal play. While end gamers want the grind reduced, it it's reduced to the point where lower level players can't play then the Challenge needs to be revised.
Similar to @MadPuppy just my views from 2 different perspectives.
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> A question, @Teeceezy. If it's been determined by data that a majority of players didn't like the Ultimate Challenge format, where does that data come from? We certainly don't see it here in the forums. Is it on Twitter? Facebook? Spending trends? Just curious.
>
> It's a combination of social media contacts, player support messages, and looking at the data of how players acted during the challenge event. We saw drops across the board in missions played and won [as expected], but also drops in missions played in other game modes, numbers of challenge missions that were tried and lost [which showed that on average, players did not try to reach higher difficulties], logins, and session length. We also ran those numbers for just players at CL 20+, alongside the set that we checked for the playerbase as a whole, and the results were about the same.
>
> We had hoped that players would play more missions at or near their highest-ever difficulty. While some certainly did, most stopped at the same difficulty they usually stop at. We had hoped that the Saturday Distance event would have been played more, but it was actually played about the same. We had hoped that players who use Challenge for resource gathering would switch to Scavenges, but they didn't.
>
> A permanent change will be announced as such, and we'll have a couple more tries at slightly different "Ultimate Challenge" events. I'm thinking that we can do one in the next 2-4 weeks, and if it works [or at least pleases some players without pissing other off], we could run it on a regular rotation [every other? every third?] until the opportunity arises to make that set of permanent changes.
>
> I personally had a ton of fun with it, and set a new difficulty record for myself. I truly believe and understand the feelings and opinions here. It's just one of those things that can't happen instantly. I appreciate the fervor and I feel like our goals are aligned. It'll get there, so long as we're all still looking for the answers.
Let me see if I got this right:
The Ultimate Challenge didn’t change any player behavior, but some were “alienated” (whatever the hell that means). Some people liked it as evidenced on the Forum. But, they didn’t change their behavior either.
But, we are going back to the previous format and expecting the same behavior as before.
So, if the Ultimate Challenge didn’t really do anything in terms of how people play the game, then it is not being made permanent because of people who didn’t like it AND who didn’t do anything different in how they played the game.
Am I getting this right? If the Ultimate Challenge had no impact in how people play the game, then why not keep it? What an I missing here?
> We had hoped that players would play more missions at or near their highest-ever difficulty. While some certainly did, most stopped at the same difficulty they usually stop at. We had hoped that the Saturday Distance event would have been played more, but it was actually played about the same. We had hoped that players who use Challenge for resource gathering would switch to Scavenges, but they didn't.
Well, I think that would change a couple of weeks in if you implement it on a regular basis since all of us are so frickin’ tired of the grind right now. Maybe people just took the opportunity to enjoy things they don’t usually have time with? Atleast I did.
I played to my limits but still had a ton of time over for family and hobbies, which was kind of weird tbh, it took a good minute or two to figure out what kind of hobbies I had before the autistic grinding
- Hospital sucks. Waiting 2:15 hs and spending 25+ gold per character is only for the extreme hardcore and having a full hospital puts a moat in Challenge progression. Most had their hospitals full earlier and only a few of the players I know actually spend gold to progress consistently, choosing to simply wait instead;
- Scavenge missions sucks;
- Many players took Ultimate Challenge week to rest. We can't stand the grind anymore and me and many others simply rushed early on to take a break during the weekend;
- "The Distance" twice a week is killing everyone's interest. Rewards are nice but there's no room / time for more grinding. It puts pressure into development an resource management. "Having to" play it stresses players.
Try to stop looking into data as the ultimate truth. It's just numbers and no human is made of numbers.
Thanks for looking into it but also consider that you have taken too much time to solve this issue. You guys need to take actions now. Not in update 3.2.
> Yeah, I'm calling BS on the "alienating a lot of the player base" excuse. NG sure as hell wasn't concerned with that when they nerfed lucky, dodge, interrupt, silenced, wrestler, and stun resistance (am I forgetting any?)
Talking out of both sides of their mouth aren't they. These "alienated" players are the same lot that voted for jackpot weekend right? I'm coming to the conclusion that they dont exist and are made up
why is it NG thinks if people don’t play 24/7 365 days a year that it’s a bad thing? People won’t burn out and give up out of boredom! Why is forcing us to be bored 90% of the way to get to 10% of fun a good model to return to @Teeceezy? How is that not blatant alienation and a model doomed to burn people out? I can’t devote that much of my life to this game. Especially when you don’t even bother to make it fun for 90% of the challenge? I question more and more each week why I continue to play. If that’s the direction we are headed count me out. How do you address the endless boredom? How
Do you justify expecting us to play so much as your game model? How many hours do you really expect us to play each week? Is that even reasonable?
And I had fun with the challenge on all of my accounts - and had time and gas to do something else.
You know... I think I know why players didn't play other game modes besides of the challenge when they had enough gas and free time:
1. people were glad to have a bit of a holiday of sorts
2. people have forgotten that there are modes besides of the challenges because challenges take up almost all of the time spent playing
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Adding the Distance made it more difficult than it already was. Now adding the Daily Quests? Who has time (and gas) to do all that?? We are already playing 4-6 hrs per day!
This is not relaxing and/or a nice friendly competition anymore, it is a second (unpaid) job.
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For endgamers with level 23 toons, start the challenge at RSL 16 and triple from 22.
This would result in 8 less challenge rounds for endgamers and the not endgamers would see no difference.
Additional raise the amount of round passes to 1 every 3 or 4 rounds.
Like @Bill_ZRT has suggested, make them optional.
This way players who wants to reach higher levels, can progress faster and players who like the low challenge levels can enjoy them.
I also want to suggest a reduction in gas costs for challenge missions.
The way where the challenge is now, makes it impossible for FTP to reach interesting stages.
We lost one player yesterday due to time commitment of the challenge mode.
Almost a second, but he decided in the last second to stay.
Unfortunatley the loss in good players is real.
An event where some people enjoyed playing less, but others were frustrated that they were forced to play less is not a success when the goal was to encourage people to play as much or more of the parts they like the most.
It's my current understanding that the players here enjoy the tougher missions, and enjoy seeing where their power can get them, but do not enjoy grinding through trivially easy levels, or playing any difficulty over and over again too many times. However, an awful lot of players who are not at the end level depend on those easy missions for the rewards and to have anything to play at all, and so restricting them from getting those early missions is literally taking the game away from them.
Having two separate challenges doesn't really work for us because of the way guilds are scored; what happens when I'm a "hardcore" player who is in a guild that has chosen the "casual" mode? What if my guild boots me because I selected toe setting that differed from everyone else? By common sense, players would assume that "hardcore" players would have a higher possible star earnings potential, and so anyone who wanted to help their guild the most would be pressured directly or indirectly into choosing "hardcore" even if they personally wanted more easy rounds instead. It's very tricky; one of the reasons those more casual players value the stars so much is because they are the same stars the veteran players are earning; they get to stand in that same leaderboard and "play in the big leagues"; even though they know they will be outscored, they still feel like they competed or helped their team.
Please note: Development is a fluid process, and suggestions and implementation take time and iteration. Any discussion of future features, deadlines, updates, balance changes, and such should be considered prospective and subject to change.
Not getting as many stars as before? Explain it to the players that feel negatively about this and they will respond better. Or just double the star count for the entirety of the mission--no more discrepancy.
Also, the point of a successful game is not equal to the amount of time players are engaging. The week of the ultimate challenge I was able to play other game modes and have a break from the unending grind. A game with mindless, endless grind needs to be tweaked, first in the short term, and then in the long term. This past week I barely got any enjoyment from the game and I know I'm not the only one.
You have no problems implementing across the board actions that upset a lot of people (nerfing luck and dodge, nerfing wrestler, nerfing stun resist...). You know the right way forward is to lessen the grind. Just do it. I'm not the only one hear seeing players drop off the map because of this, and it's a major issue.
However, there's a lot of solutions that any kid with minimal gaming experience can propose. And please DON'T use handicap to "solve" this. It almost killed my game some months ago.
I think we all can move the discussion into solutions now that you exposed your problem too. My biggest pain here is TIME. We can't waste more time and let this damage the players more. We have to look into simple and fast solutions. If not permanent, at least temporary. But towards easing the burden as fast as possible.
A while ago I mentioned these three tweaks. You could probably do them immediately:
- Raise starting RSL from 14 to 15 (for players with max lvl survivors 23/22/21/20);
- Remove the time lock (at least while under Round Passes);
- Change "The Distance" schedule to once a week, with a subtle longer duration, during Mon - Wed when there isn't a Challenge going on.
We can't wait anymore.
#endthegrind
Therefore we can play other game modes or take a break from the game here n there. ie "Have a life outside the game as well as enjoy the game."
But from what I read it seems NGs goal is solely to get players to play more. And to do this, it seems they're forcing players who want to be competitive to do just that.
Sure "forcing" may seem like a strong word to use but in order to be competitive, you must play endless hours of challenge missions that have no fun or strategy involved.
There's enough need to play other modes of the game to level up, collect equipment, badges etc. Now it seems it's like this in every part of the game.
I thought the new daily quests sounded like a good idea but it appears now as only an attempt to make players play more.
What NG is failing to see in there data is all those players who have recently left or soon to leave the game.
I don't know how else to put it so I'll say it as simple as I can.
"IMO if NG does not make a change to end the gind within the challenge mode many players will leave. Once guilds begin to fracture, more and more will leave."
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But no one but the other players themselves are stopping themselves from playing.
You are right now alienating players who seemingly understand the game and who are fighting to keep it alive, contribute to the guilds, the forum etc. so as not to alienate casual players who might quit once they get to the point where NML becomes a part-time job.
Why not give players round passes every 3 rounds and let them decide whether to use them or not? The people who want to play more challenge rounds can grind their hearts out and those who are burning out right now might be saved, too.
You could even let players decide how many of their passes they want to use. 1,2,3...all of them. Unused ones get discarded as usual.
That should at least be a good solution for the time being until there is a permanent fix that makes everyone happy (though I don't believe that solution exists, but yeah...).
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Remember when 205 stars was considered great? It didn’t take all week to complete the challenge. That’s the solution. Make the challenge more real. Focus on improving outposts and the distance. Have special events. Make the distance have better prizes. Make scavenging missions interesting and fun and not a ridiculous gas cost.
Sure people are playing more right now. But playing and having fun aren’t the same. When a game becomes more work then fun it starts to die. That’s the direction you are heading right now.
http://forums.nextgames.com/walkingdead/discussion/31201/my-grind-fix-rodent-fix
...this is getting sick. I believe that it's all about "earnings"...obviously the game is their work and probably earnings from new players are much more than earnings from few maxed players.
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Because of this, I will save so much money by retiring from challenges and will be able to spoil my girls just a little bit more this Christmas.. with gifts and my time!
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I'm losing my players left right and centre, we are a family and it kills them to leave but they are sick of the grind