Ultimate Challenge response - Thanks for all the feedback!

Kaz

Alright! So that was a good weekend for feedback! Thanks to you all!

So apparently Hilltop was feeding the walkers well, which affected our test and of course your performance. There was some learning there, and we’ll definitely tell Maggie that this is an awesome defensive strategy if the Saviors decide to attack Hilltop again.

Anyway! Analyzing your comments and suggestions, we’ve decided to run similar challenge settings for this week’s challenge. The main differences are that instead of 1 round pass per 5 completed rounds, you’ll get them after every 3 completed rounds. And of course, we are not going to use Memory Lane again; we are going to go with Farmlands instead (the same one used for the first Ultimate Challenge).

It’s worth mentioning that those changes were made mainly because of your feedback. So yeah, we are listening to you all and kudos for sharing your thoughts! I particularly REALLY enjoyed the threads where you shared your feedback considering the Hilltop situation.

The other settings will remain the same (and here they are again):
- No timer after 3 rounds in less than one hour
- Higher starting difficulty for all players:
- Slightly higher for players whose top Survivors are level 20 or lower
- Significantly higher for players whose top Survivors are level 21 or higher
- Two rounds per difficulty instead of three when difficulty is near the level of the player’s top survivors
- Three rounds per difficulty for the highest levels in the game [26 and above]
- Fewer Stars needed for players and Guilds to earn rewards

And also:
-Increased minimum and maximum Tokens in Token Crates
-Increased phones for Guild phone Rewards

After that, we are going to run the challenges with the usual settings and we hope to rebalance the challenges as soon as possible.

Thanks a lot for all your feedback! Especially the very constructive ones. It was beautiful to read them through!

General_Pain

Sweet

Cough Every change cough NG does cough cough is for cough the cough better cough.

Putchuco

Good stuff, thx @Kaz !

Rouvinator

Hell yeah

paintbeast

This all sounds great. Thanks @Kaz for this thread. This is how NG should always handle communication! 1) They test something new. 2) They get feedback. 3) They respond to the feedback.

I must say, I am very pleasantly surprised and appreciative of this level of communication. Well done NG! Please keep it up!

DLich

I didn't check star counts etc but if I'm reading this correctly players with 3 lvl 20's (and nothing higher) start at a lower RSL than those of 3 lvl 21's or more. So 3 lvl 20's have the potential to earn more stars regarding they have more rounds is that correct?

I have 3 lvl 23's

18, 19, 20, 21 are single
22, 23, 24, 25 are double
26+ are triple.

Am I to understand players who have 3 lvl 20 survivors aren't starting at RSL 18? They are starting lower? Can anyone with 3 lvl 20 survivors advise me of what rsl they started at and when double and triple rounds started for them?

Conan1976

Thank you for taking a look into the challenges!

JayZ

Thank you guys for listening to the feedback! Even though I know the grindy challenge will be back next week, I hope the data from these few weeks will be sufficient to make some version of UC permanent very soon.

Just to make sure player expectations are set reasonably, I would bold/emphasize this line and make an in-game announcement so people aren't disappointed next week: "After that, we are going to run the challenges with the usual settings and we hope to rebalance the challenges as soon as possible."

carefree

> @DLich said:
> I didn't check star counts etc but if I'm reading this correctly players with 3 lvl 20's (and nothing higher) start at a lower RSL than those of 3 lvl 21's or more. So 3 lvl 20's have the potential to earn more stars regarding they have more rounds is that correct?
>
> I have 3 lvl 23's
>
> 18, 19, 20, 21 are single
> 22, 23, 24, 25 are double
> 26+ are triple.
>
> Am I to understand players who have 3 lvl 20 survivors aren't starting at RSL 18? They are starting lower? Can anyone with 3 lvl 20 survivors advise me of what rsl they started at and when double and triple rounds started for them?


And that is what we worked so hard to get stopped just a few months back.

My advice to everyone is, if you only have two 20s now, don’t upgrade anymore. The star loss was massive. Not sure wkat it is now but someone will work it out.

lyts1985

So we're sticking with the idea of handicapping endgamers then? Great. All that work, grinding, and saving supplies to get to lv23 just to be told I'd have been better off, from a competitive point of view, sticking at lv20.

Great :-( I sincerely hope that doesn't become a permanent change

carefree

Someone needs to work it out what the difference between the two are now. It was a big difference, not sure what it is now.

DLich

Based on this...

The other settings will remain the same (and here they are again):
- Higher starting difficulty for all players:
- Slightly higher for players whose top Survivors are level 20 or lower
- Significantly higher for players whose top Survivors are level 21 or higher
- Two rounds per difficulty instead of three when difficulty is near the level of the player’s top survivors
- Three rounds per difficulty for the highest levels in the game [26 and above]
- Fewer Stars needed for players and Guilds to earn rewards

If players at lvl 20 for example start at 16 and have

single rounds 16, 17, 18, 19
double rounds 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25
triple rounds 26+

and if playes at lvl 21+ for example start at 18 and have

single rounds 18, 19, 20, 21
double rounds 22, 23, 24, 25
triple rounds 26+

Then those at lvl 20 are playing 16, 17, 20.2, 21.2 (minimum of 146 star difference)

16 + 18 = 34
17 + 18 = 35
20 + 18 = 38
21 + 18 = 39
34 + 35 + 38 + 39 = 146

Movado

Oh. I guess I better re-download game

DLich

I don't mean to start forum drama. It just dawned on me there might be a "star loss" issue going on here.

Yes I understand players with lvl 23's will make it further in the challenge than lvl 20's... I agree.. I'm just wondering if that "star loss" issue is back with this UC.

*edit to add... It used to be 20,21,22 started at the same... Maybe since the introduction of 23's the "bar" has just been moved 1 level later so it's 21,22,23 start the same. I think that's more likely the case.

Drunken

@lyts1985

Most end gamers prefer the shorter format. With the cool down timer and the long grind you can spend hours upon hours to hit potential. I bought 1 gas booster last week and was able to get to point where I wasn't still flying through.

I put up nearly 1300 stars compared to almost 1700 and it was great having the additional time to enjoy life instead of meaningless grind.

Now that being said I think guild rewards were off. I believe that as a TOP 10 OG seemed to gain less rewards than normal.

@DLich do you have any intel or data on this based on NOCs score? I would love to see how many actual radios and TG were earned compared to traditional grind

Shteevie

It's true that the fairness issue and the grind issue are related. We implements the "Maximum starting difficulty" in the summer to counteract this, but doing so added a lot of lower-difficulty rounds to the challenge for the top players.

The ultimate challenge run last week and next week does still have a maximum difficulty setting, but it is less punishing than before. Players with the top possible level of survivors will still have an advantage over others by being able to go into more rewarding rounds sooner, and by having a better shot at being able to continue after lower-leveled players are unable to win further missions.

The players who choose not to upgrade are seriously hamstringing their chances of getting the best rewards and reaching the top difficulty levels.

Pandreq

Thanks NG. I am glad you are running this version of the challenge again, but refined to take into account our feedback. This is really positive.

As far as the “star loss” issue is concerned. I remember experiencing this when upgrading a while ago. My view was that while it is undoubtedly real, it is a temporary blip while you upgrade everyone to a higher level, at which point you will be stronger and be able to progress further and score more stars. The other option is that NG cap the challenge starting level - which they did, and it led to the grind.......!!!!

And I know which of those I would prefer (easy for me to say, I know, with all my survivors now at 23.......). So looking forward to this week’s challenge. Thanks again, NG

lyts1985

@Drunken

Yeah I agree, I prefer the shorter format with less grind, definitely. What I don't like is players with a lv20 roster able to earn similar scores to a lv23 simply by taking advantage of the high level handicap.

I put alot of time and effort in to reaching lv23 only to be told I could've stayed at 20 and still put up similar scores...

TransmuteJun

This revised version (Ultimate Challenge 3?) does sound like it is fixing a lot of the issue. My only real remaining complaint is the lowered TG rewards overall.

Thank you for listening to our feedback.

Drunken

@Shteevie 3
@Kaz

Would either of you have a breakdown on when and what rewards were for guilds. I didn't take not of each reward we earned as I got started late, but I am curious it seemed there was less TG and Radios for upper tier guilds. While my crates dropped 22 gear still even tho I was killing level 30 walkers(thought this was fixed)

LootHoarder

Preliminary loothoarder analysis for this is: no effective change in actual grind other than change in round pass grind to grind time. Take a week in isolation. One with no round passes earned from the previous week. Dont play the following week. Did anything change? Nope. And thats why loothoarder still doesnt bother playing it anymore. Still takes roughly 5h12m to get to a desirable rsl for me and im simply no longer willing to play for 5h plus before i can actually have fun playing.

LootHoarder

Oh yes and btw grinders who immediately will see this and say play every week and it reduces grind thanks to round passes and the 5 to 3 change... lets all remember that round passes are just grind to grind to grind. Miss a week, etc and see what happens to all that extra grind reduction you think is happening. But loot! We grind every week nonstop without fail cause grind to grind to grind! What do you mean miss a week?

Dudes. Real life yo. Grind to grind to grind to grind < real life.

Shteevie

@drunken In the Challenge last week, we increased the chances for gear in the challenge crates, meaning that you had a better shot at legendary gear. We also increased the chances for phones, gear, and components for mission crates at very high difficulties. For Guilds, we pulled down the number of stars needed for rewards by a bit.

Unfortunately, the accidental extra tank and armored walkers raised difficulty by more than we had planned for. We'll make sure that they don't return, so you won't need to worry about them raining on your parade.

Also, the bonus rewards this week will start at a lower threshold, so more people should be able to get a shot at them.

TJS

Wow, if that was a better chance of Legendary gear how bad are the odds usually?

I don't know if I should laugh or cry.

Troublemaker

Great news! Looking forward to it.

@Kaz no timer lock confirmed? That's VERY important as it allows us to manage our time.

WellyLuga

I love this game but I hate how stars determine the challenge. I have a full roster of 23 survivors and whilst it would be annoying if someone with level 20/21/22 could put up similar scores to me it doesn't really bother me. I have faith in NG that they have structured it so that higher level players like myself who push further into the challenge will earn more stars.

In the end though, I don't really care. During ka-boom I broke 2k* for the first time and nearly cleared 32.4. What was I more pleased with, the 2k* or the fact that I reach round 32 for the first time and nearly cleared it? The round I cleared to every time. I'm confident I would have reached 33 this week if it wasn't for hilltop. Ultimately, stars don't determine how well you did, the stage you grafted to does.

Drunken

@Shteevie

But at what level should my gear drops be? Isnt crate rewards based on the RSL? If I am on level 29 shouldn't any Crate I open and get legendary gear be at level 23 and not 22? I know this has been discussed a lot but as a new Max player I am not starting to see that all my crates don't equal out to what they should be. I realize when I buy in trade shop the 7500 crate it is based on my Player level 66 which means 22 drop which is bad enough, but in the challenge with increase odds of getting legendary gear and knowing my RSL is more than high enough I would like to see the drop rate be what it should and that is 23. Big difference in Damage/Health between the two.

Also correct I knew Guild rewards were lowered but I am talking overall reward not just when earned. So if say Guild X typically earns 75 radios but this past challenge only earned 60... That isn't a big deal I can document it this upcoming week to see the difference either good or bad. I just didn't know if you had a list of when the rewards were earned and at what point they are earned.

TJS

@Shteevie

You said this in another thread;

As a reminder, the reward-based alterations made for this event are:
- Better chances of finding Weapons and Armor in Challenge Crates
- Increased rewards at high star counts for players and Guilds

Additionally, the number of stars needed to reach the crates was adjusted to account for players playing fewer rounds overall since the difficulty increases faster.

Therefore, the number of tokens in crates, or the rarity of individual pieces of gear found are not expected to be any different from before.

The feedback is appreciated, but I wanted to ensure that people don't feel disappointment in a change we didn't make.

Now you say this;

> @Shteevie said:
> @drunken In the Challenge last week, we increased the chances for gear in the challenge crates, meaning that you had a better shot at legendary gear. We also increased the chances for phones, gear, and components for mission crates at very high difficulties. For Guilds, we pulled down the number of stars needed for rewards by a bit.
>
> Unfortunately, the accidental extra tank and armored walkers raised difficulty by more than we had planned for. We'll make sure that they don't return, so you won't need to worry about them raining on your parade.
>
> Also, the bonus rewards this week will start at a lower threshold, so more people should be able to get a shot at them.


This is what I mean by vague information and poor wording.

Comment (1)
Gear is not expected to be different from before.

Comment (2)
...you had a better shot at legendary gear.

Honestly, this is 'almost' unbelievable.
I'd like to say more but I'll bite my tounge for now.

Shteevie

WellyLuga said:

I have a full roster of 23 survivors and whilst it would be annoying if someone with level 20/21/22 could put up similar scores to me it doesn't really bother me.

During ka-boom I broke 2k* for the first time and nearly cleared 32.4.

I really don't think there are many [any?] cases of a player with only level 20 survivors getting to difficulty 32. They were probably stopped around difficulty 27 or 28, so you made in the ballpark of 4 difficulties, or 14 rounds, more stars than they did.

Players at 20 will get similar totals as players at 23 if they play the same number of rounds. But players like you that really test your strategy and survivors will always make a lot more. We see it in the data every week.

Shteevie

I apologize for your frustration @TJS , but those statements are all consistent.

Lets say you were asked to flip a coin, and would get $1 for every heads. Would you expect to make more money flipping the coin 10 times or 20? More flips [gear dropping from crates] will, in aggregate, result in more heads [legendaries]. Similarly, every individual heads or tails you got wouldn't be any different from any other individual heads or tails - you would just have more total results. I am generalizing, of course, as the odds for leg gear are clearly not the same as flipping a coin, but it illustrates the way the promotion worked.

TJS

I'm not sure what flipping a coin has anything to do with making comments that are contradictory to each other unless you flip a coin to decide what you're going to comment.