Ultimate Challenge response - Thanks for all the feedback!

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  • mik81mik81 Member Posts: 360
    Shteevie said:

    WellyLuga said:

    I have a full roster of 23 survivors and whilst it would be annoying if someone with level 20/21/22 could put up similar scores to me it doesn't really bother me.

    During ka-boom I broke 2k* for the first time and nearly cleared 32.4.

    I really don't think there are many [any?] cases of a player with only level 20 survivors getting to difficulty 32. They were probably stopped around difficulty 27 or 28, so you made in the ballpark of 4 difficulties, or 14 rounds, more stars than they did.

    Players at 20 will get similar totals as players at 23 if they play the same number of rounds. But players like you that really test your strategy and survivors will always make a lot more. We see it in the data every week.
    I'm a player with lvl 20 survivors and got up to lvl 27. 5-9 fatties and armored on Hilltop where a wall I could not break. On a different challenge I may get up to 28(big "may"), but a player with lvl 20 survivors will never get close to a player with lvl 23 survivors, if both play the same amount of time. It's just impossible.


    MystiqueTroublemakerWeekOnecrambert_nec
  • nadecirnadecir Member Posts: 242
    It continues to astound me that so much effort has gone into the design of iterative design and testing of the variations of the ultimate challenge. On the one hand, I am pleased that NG is working hard to try to make the situation better. On the other hand, I wonder if the time spent on the analyzing the data and trying different variations of the UC could be better spent elsewhere and whether incremental changes to the current system are too limiting. I am sure the number of hours that NG has spent on this problem is incredible at this point.

    Reliance on game data to tweak the game like this means that incremental changes seem to be the only path for improvement. Incrementalism is all well and good, but it forces the designer to think inside a tightly controlled box. Incrementalism is the enemy of a great design. To get a truly great design, one needs to start with a completely blank slate and design forward, and not be constrained with only small changes to an existing design. Use the existing game data and player feedback, but don't be constrained into thinking about a challenge that requires round passes and a calculation of a starting level.

    I do think the best design for the challenge is to just let the player select what level to start on. Limit the individual and guild rewards star count to the player's top 30 best rounds. Heck, if I was redesigning the challenge, I'd even let players skip around with their rounds. Suppose a max player gets to challenge level 34 and realizes they can't complete it. Let them go back to level 20 and play there to have some fun. Or if a mid-level player wants to stretch and try level 30 just for fun, let them do that. Now with the current challenge system, if you are stuck on a challenge mission on a certain level, a player can only repeat that mission, again and again, to try to complete it in order to play more. This continual banging your head against the wall is frustrating, and literally forces players to stop playing the game. A player quitting the challenge out of frustration is completely counterproductive for NG and the player too.

    IMHO, NG loses revenue and players are less satisfied by forcing players to grind through levels they don't want to play to get to the good stuff. And NG loses revenue and players are less satisfied by not being allowed to jump around in the challenge. I realize that NG would have to spend some development resources to let players start where they want and only use the player's top 30 rounds for rewards, but they can be sure it's the last time that they will have to fix this problem.

    In terms of the challenge leaderboards, we should not be constrained by app changes to support our desire for new leaderboards. NG could create NML leaderboard outside the game by using their website to publish the new leaderboards. If NG doesn't have the time or resources to do leaderboards on the web, they could export the weekly star counts to a player (I nominate @DLich) to put new leaderboards together. Heck, a shared Google Doc sheet would work just fine for new leaderboards. Players who are interested in the leaderboards will have no problems going to the web to look at them.

    So my two simple suggestions are: Let the players play the challenge the way they want, and put the weekly challenge leaderboards on the web instead of in the app.

    TroublemakertabernacCaptainslayerShadowaceAz
  • MadPuppyMadPuppy Moderator Posts: 2,829
    @TJS

    Let me put it like this:

    You had a better chance at legendary gear.

    But NOT a chance at better legendary gear.

    Note the subtle but significant difference. It all depends on reading and understanding carefully.

    Note: we're talking probabilities not guarantees.
    TJS
  • GuapoGuapo Member Posts: 980
    edited February 2018
    It's saying that the possibility of higher rarity did not change, but you had a better chance at legendary. That is not the same. Not that I care, I got good stuff.
    In a way, all of us has an El Guapo to face. For some, shyness might be their El Guapo. For others, a lack of education might be their El Guapo. For us, El Guapo is a big, dangerous man who wants to kill us.
    1Ris
  • DLichDLich Member Posts: 5,526
    MadPuppy said:

    @TJS



    Let me put it like this:



    You had a better chance at legendary gear.



    But NOT a chance at better legendary gear.



    Note the subtle but significant difference. It all depends on reading and understanding carefully.



    Note: we're talking probabilities not guarantees.

    The game said better chance of gear... gear period... what that means is bronze, silver and gold crates had a better chance of attaining gear than it normally does.

    Nobody should confuse the fact that getting a better chance of gear is equal to getting a better chance of legendary gear. These are two completely different things and it wasn't until AFTER the challenge was over did Shteevie say it was better chance of legendary gear. If I recall nowhere in the forum or game did anyone from NG ever mention "better chance of LEGENDARY gear".

    IMO, a better chance of gear just means gold crates that would normally be 36K xp would be green gear. Better chance of gear. Better chance of gear than usual and more likely to get gear.

    I did find that the last challenge had a better chance at gear.

    Most of my bronze crates had 1 and 2 star gear
    Most of my silver crates had 2 and 3 star gear
    Most of my gold crates had 3 star gear

    I did not find any better chance of legendary gear as that was never ever mentioned anywhere prior to after the challenge ending. Maybe i'm wrong but better chance of gear doesn't mean better chance of legendary gear.

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  • GuapoGuapo Member Posts: 980
    @DLich exactly, until now we are told there was a better chance of legendary (which like I said, may have worked for me)
    In a way, all of us has an El Guapo to face. For some, shyness might be their El Guapo. For others, a lack of education might be their El Guapo. For us, El Guapo is a big, dangerous man who wants to kill us.
    MadPuppyRessurrection
  • DLichDLich Member Posts: 5,526
    To Quote @Teeceezy in this thread

    As extra fuel for your fire, we have also increased some rewards for this event:

    - Better chances of finding Weapons and Armor in Challenge Crates
    - Increased rewards at high star counts for players and Guilds

    Nowhere did it say better chance of finding legendary weapons and armor

    Shteevie said:

    @drunken In the Challenge last week, we increased the chances for gear in the challenge crates, meaning that you had a better shot at legendary gear. We also increased the chances for phones, gear, and components for mission crates at very high difficulties. For Guilds, we pulled down the number of stars needed for rewards by a bit.

    All I read was "Better chances of finding weapons and armor" now it's increased legendary gear, increased phones, gear and components from missions crates?

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  • jimmorrison369jimmorrison369 Member Posts: 1,931
    If you got a better chance at gear, you'll get more gear.
    If you get more gear, you have a better chance at legendary gear (if relative odds are still the same).

    if 1 out of 50 is legendary.
    And you get 500 instead of 250 gear.
    Than on average you'd have 10 in stead of 5 legendary.
    DoTakDavid_H79
  • DLichDLich Member Posts: 5,526
    edited February 2018

    If you got a better chance at gear, you'll get more gear.
    If you get more gear, you have a better chance at legendary gear (if relative odds are still the same).

    if 1 out of 50 is legendary.
    And you get 500 instead of 250 gear.
    Than on average you'd have 10 in stead of 5 legendary.

    I re wrote this to clear it up some.

    If 1 out of 50 is legendary (gold crates only)
    And you get 500 instead of 250 gear. (split between bronze, silver and gold crates)
    Than on average you'd have 10 instead of 5 legendary.

    Not entirely true and here's why.

    This past event did not have an increase in the number of gold crates that would appear and since Legendary gear can only come from a gold crate the odds of getting a gold crate were the same. Primarily the increase in gear came about from the silver and bronze crates (which do not house legendary gear)

    Secondly there was no increase in chance of me opening a gold crate even when one appeared. The event only had an increase in gear, not an increase in getting gold crates nor an increased chance of actually opening said gold crate once it appeared.

    So let's say on average, during a challenge I receive 50 Gold crates and on average 40 of them contain gear of which 2 is legendary.

    If the odds of getting gear increased, then instead of 40 of the 50 gold crates containing gear let's say 45 of the 50 gold crates contained gear.

    Those 5 extra crates, the only one's in the game that can potentially contain legendary gear, if my "pre event" odds are 2 in 40 (5%) then adding 5 extra crates keeping the 5% pattern wouldn't hold a flame to getting more legendary drops.

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  • JadenJaden Member Posts: 3,055


    The chance at useless gear also rises.

    And haven't we all said we don't want so much useless gear anymore and would much prefer XP over 1- to 3-star gear? I think this is universal (I never upgrade anything below green even on my baby account and green only because I can't seem to get epic and legendary gear for my level).

    So better chance to get gear is not exactly appealing to me - better chances at legendary gear (as in we replaced every x number of green gear with legendary gear) would have been.

    Oh well...

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  • SPC_TORRESSPC_TORRES Member Posts: 1,812
    edited February 2018
    Sorry wrong place

    SCBMA
  • carefreecarefree Member Posts: 203
    > If players at lvl 20 for example start at 16 and have
    >
    > single rounds 16, 17, 18, 19
    > double rounds 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25
    > triple rounds 26+
    >
    > and if playes at lvl 21+ for example start at 18 and have
    >
    > single rounds 18, 19, 20, 21
    > double rounds 22, 23, 24, 25
    > triple rounds 26+
    >
    > Then those at lvl 20 are playing 16, 17, 20.2, 21.2 (minimum of 146 star difference)
    >
    > 16 + 18 = 34
    > 17 + 18 = 35
    > 20 + 18 = 38
    > 21 + 18 = 39
    > 34 + 35 + 38 + 39 = 146

    This is exactly what some of us was worried about. My guilds lost loads of players last time with three level 20s and over Cos of the handicap.

    Well expect loads of level 20s with three or more, 21s, 22s and even some 23s that ain’t got good weapons, to leave once they see players in their guilds lower PL than them getting higher scores.

    No one, that puts the effort in, likes to be beaten by players lower than them.

    My advice, do the UC but get rid of the handicap. Or expect loads of players to leave again.

    Just my thoughts!
    OneVoicelyts1985Fordy
  • SPC_TORRESSPC_TORRES Member Posts: 1,812
    Shteevie said:

    I apologize for your frustration @TJS , but those statements are all consistent.

    Lets say you were asked to flip a coin, and would get $1 for every heads. Would you expect to make more money flipping the coin 10 times or 20? More flips [gear dropping from crates] will, in aggregate, result in more heads [legendaries]. Similarly, every individual heads or tails you got wouldn't be any different from any other individual heads or tails - you would just have more total results. I am generalizing, of course, as the odds for leg gear are clearly not the same as flipping a coin, but it illustrates the way the promotion worked.

    Sorry, but first I would insist that NG should me the coin to prove it even had heads or tails
    I stopped after 16 rounds, because the rewards was crap
    so that would be ( 288 - 864 crates ) I would say I opened ? half for sure
    **** So did the good stuff kick in after 1,000 ? ****

    You said this in another thread
    " As a reminder, the reward-based alterations made for this event are:
    - Better chances of finding Weapons and Armor in Challenge Crates "

    This Today : the Challenge last week, we increased the chances for gear in the challenge crates, meaning that you had a better shot at legendary gear.

  • DLichDLich Member Posts: 5,526
    Shteevie said:

    I apologize for your frustration @TJS , but those statements are all consistent.

    Lets say you were asked to flip a coin, and would get $1 for every heads. Would you expect to make more money flipping the coin 10 times or 20? More flips [gear dropping from crates] will, in aggregate, result in more heads [legendaries]. Similarly, every individual heads or tails you got wouldn't be any different from any other individual heads or tails - you would just have more total results. I am generalizing, of course, as the odds for leg gear are clearly not the same as flipping a coin, but it illustrates the way the promotion worked.

    I missed this comment. This is what I'm talking about.

    If The amount of Gold Crates during a weekly challenge I'm presented with and are able to open are 50, and of those 50 typically 40 contain gear (of which 2 are legendary) and those 50 now have an increased chance of gear (and 40 is already the minimum) so let's assume 5 of the remaining 10 are now gear.

    50 total Gold Crates
    40 of which contain gear (80%)
    2 of which contain legendary gear (5% of gear)

    50 total Gold Crates
    45 of which contain gear (90%)
    2.25 of which contain legendary gear (5% of gear)

    2.25 rounds down to 2.

    Legendary gear can only be attained in after mission crates from Gold Crates. If the odds of me receiving and opening a gold crate are the same but there's just a higher chance that it'll be gear (without the odds of that gear being any better than it usually is) then I'm just getting more green gear, less xp than it would be if it was filled with xp.

    I do understand the "more chances" theory, but relative to what players are looking for... 5 star gear... most of the crates we will get wont contain legendary gear so the flip a coin theory is kinda a moot point.


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  • lyts1985lyts1985 Member Posts: 56
    To everyone who thinks/feels this reduces the grind, bear in mind we had the herd this weekend too so alot more gas to play with... think how much time we've really been gifted when you take away that extra gas.

    It will be interesting to see how we get on without that extra gas and without a brick wall in the shape of the hilltop!
    PutchucocarefreeMurdoqueMrsScattercushion
  • DrunkenDrunken Member Posts: 1,202
    lyts1985 said:

    To everyone who thinks/feels this reduces the grind, bear in mind we had the herd this weekend too so alot more gas to play with... think how much time we've really been gifted when you take away that extra gas.



    It will be interesting to see how we get on without that extra gas and without a brick wall in the shape of the hilltop!

    This past challenge I started on Round 9 I competed 30 rounds total so I did 22 rounds of physical play. That being said this Time I am starting on round 7 because of the round passes being at 5. So this week if I clear 30 maps again it means I will do 25 rounds to hit same point. This challenge not being Hill Top I am sure I can get to 31 maybe 32 meaning an additional 3-5 maps.

    In short tho

    I typically clear 40 rounds earning 8 passes. That means I physically play 42 so dropping down to 22-28 is just wonderful for me that is several hours of less play and if I really need those crates I can rerun missions or run scavenge.
    crambert_nec
  • crambert_neccrambert_nec Member Posts: 1,357
    I was definitely someone who believed in the "lost stars" and didn't upgrade more than two survivors to max level last time this was a problem. But I dunno, where the game is now, I just can't see a player with level 20 survivors beating a player with level 23 survivors unless that player is absolute garbage or doesn't try at all.
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  • DLichDLich Member Posts: 5,526
    I used a website and again this is just a trial something fun to play around with marbles

    Using the odds of attaining a legendary being 2% compared to 98% chance of gear being non legendary.

    2 Purple marbles in a bag (representing Legendary)
    98 Green marbles in a bag (representing non Legendary)

    If I usually open 50 gold crates and 40 of them contain gear then it would look like this



    If the chance of gear is increased and suppose 45 of them now contain gear it would look like this



    This is only fortunate enough to happen if 1 of those extra 5 was legendary (20% of the bonus) where it's normally 2%. I'd have to have very good luck for this to happen.

    In a grand scheme of things, opening 200 Gold crates with an 80% of the crate containing gear and a 2% chance of that gear being legendary here is an estimate of 200 Gold crates..



    4 in every 200 gold crates that I open would contain legendary.

    Notice the theoretical odds remain the same and in screen shot 2 the experienced odds increase if you are lucky enough to get one of those "bonus coin tosses" to be legendary.

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  • TraeTrae Member Posts: 440
    Shteevie,
    Thank you for the detailed information for Ultimate Callenge 3.0 and for working on getting the challenges balanced fairly across the board for all players! This new setup seems promising. I look forward to playing it and seeing how it pans out!
    Thank you :smiley:
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  • The_OvercomerThe_Overcomer Member Posts: 182
    @kaz Awesome. Sounds fantastic, thank you indeed and for listening to our feedback.
  • sbfsbf Member Posts: 466
    Shteevie said:

    It's true that the fairness issue and the grind issue are related. We implements the "Maximum starting difficulty" in the summer to counteract this, but doing so added a lot of lower-difficulty rounds to the challenge for the top players.

    The ultimate challenge run last week and next week does still have a maximum difficulty setting, but it is less punishing than before. Players with the top possible level of survivors will still have an advantage over others by being able to go into more rewarding rounds sooner, and by having a better shot at being able to continue after lower-leveled players are unable to win further missions.

    The players who choose not to upgrade are seriously hamstringing their chances of getting the best rewards and reaching the top difficulty levels.

    For the lost stars of endgamers, I propose everyone 20+ starting at the same difficulty and having round passes built in for each upgrade (lvl21, lvl22, lvl23 survivors) so that the double stars earned will equal the lost star count. @Shteevie @Kaz @Teeceezy
    tabernacWeekOneJayZ
  • SleeperyJeemSleeperyJeem Member Posts: 102
    Kaz said:

    Great news! Looking forward to it.



    @Kaz no timer lock confirmed? That's VERY important as it allows us to manage our time.

    Oh, yeah, sorry about that. No timer also! I've added it in the main post and the game article tomorrow will have this information as well. Thanks again! :)
    Can we please not have quests to do challenge levels on Saturday and Sunday? Most of us are going to be at the brick wall before then, with this setup.

    No fattie rampage and properly scaled round passes were my must haves for fixing things. This is much like UC1, which I liked a lot, so hopefully this goes off without any more surprise bugs. Good luck!

    Kaz
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