Ultimate Challenge response - Thanks for all the feedback!

124

Comments

  • CaliCaliforniaCaliCalifornia Member Posts: 24
    Um, remember when challenges started on Tuesdays? It worked better for my schedule. Yes on 3 round passes and yes on no timers. Super dislike timers!
    Troublemaker
  • lyts1985lyts1985 Member Posts: 56
    Happy with this format, aside from the ridiculous handicap placed on 21s, 22s, and 23s.

    I think 3 rounds per pass may be a little too much as a permanent setting too. I think 4 could be the sweet spot :-)
  • berg280berg280 Member Posts: 146
    it seems a lot of people are stuck on the decrease in stars from the UC. if you find a way to increase the stars and keep a similar format to the UC I think most players will love it. I know stars don't matter and everyone gets less but it would sure be fun to challenge out PB in challenges. hope you figure it out NG :)
  • JayZJayZ Member Posts: 3,236
    berg280 said:

    the way I see it is. you only have to spend 2 bucks to get you further in the game. forget the 13 bucks it's only 2. if you can't afford that. well sorry to hear about that. other games I've played you would be paying a hell of a lot more. it's pretty cheap here. less grind will be better and I'm sure they will make it better. but to max out your stars I'm sure you will have to spend that 2 bucks. game needs to make something.

    It's not the $2 that bothers me. It's the fact that it takes the regular challenge requires about 2 more hours of low-level grinding than the Ultimate Challenge, and I value 2 hours of my time at way more than $2. (It's apparently worth $400 an hour to my company's clients)
    Elder in Legacy Eh, a top 10 global Challenge and Guild Wars guild
    PM me or visit this link to join the Eh family!
    Visit this link for my Distance and Challenge strategy videos
    JadenMystiqueDBones
  • warlordfwarlordf Member Posts: 220
    @crambert_nec sorry for only answering now but its just a different point of view, good game :)
  • TJSTJS Member Posts: 4,501
    FORUM POLL RESULTS FOR ALL THREE UC VERSIONS


    UC VER. 1


    UC VER. 2


    UC VER. 3



    -
    TJS  -  Member of W-S
    Nation Wars 🇦🇺 Australian Team Captain
    MystiqueConan1976anthony172Putchuco
  • JayZJayZ Member Posts: 3,236
    Mystique said:

    @Kaz Since you’ve already crushed the spirit of many of us, by announcing we are back to the dreaded, life sucking regular challenge system.. Can ya be a doll and throw us a bone, at least say you took the timer away for this week?! :grimace:

    orrrrrrrrrr 3 rounds per pass!
    Elder in Legacy Eh, a top 10 global Challenge and Guild Wars guild
    PM me or visit this link to join the Eh family!
    Visit this link for my Distance and Challenge strategy videos
    MystiqueJadenKazCaptainslayer
  • MystiqueMystique Content Creator ❤️ Posts: 1,454
    Thought I’d be pushing my luck with that @JayZ lol
    But wholeheartedly agree of course!
    ⚔️ Leader/Elder TheHerdReborn/TheHerdReturned⚔️
    🌟IGN: Rene 🌟 Line ID: Mystique_01
    JayZCaptainslayer
  • nadecirnadecir Member Posts: 242
    Kaz said:

    EVERYONE!

    Thanks once again for all the feedback, it seems this is the right way to go but we did receive some complaints as well, so we might not implement this model right away and we are probably going with very close one.

    Also now we are going to take the time to analyze the data we have so we can implement a definitive one as soon as possible. We really want to make it happen, but we can't run it for another week or decrease the number of round passes in the meantime.

    This week we will return to the default settings as I've previously announced and I KNOW, this means that grinding all the way to the top will be back, BUT we can't really run this UC again or running it with less round passes for now.

    HOWEVER, we will have some cool, different and requested event this weekend that you guys might enjoy! :)

    @Kaz Take this as constructive criticism, but this messaging here could use some improvement.

    First of all, you say "We can't run it for..". However, you've already proven that you can run the challenge this way, and you can do it again if you so desire. You are electing not to run this challenge again for your own reasons that you have decided not to share.

    You also say you are "probably going with a very close one". If this is true, why not continue to run this challenge again if it's closer to the long-term model? Going backward makes little sense. You did mention that you did receive some complaints. You are always going to have complaints about any change. It's much too easy to rely on these complaints to abdicate responsibility for your decision making.

    Finally, you try to deflect your difficult message by mentioning the new events. That's great, but it really has nothing to do with the issue here.

    The players here would appreciate more transparency by NG. This seems counter to the NG corporate culture, unfortunately. In your interview with @Pain_Walker it was very evident that you were afraid to give away too much information. That's too bad and we can only assume that's the way you been instructed to communicate.

    Customers will assume that companies are treating them poorly when information is obviously being withheld. The first question that comes to a customer's mind with an obvious lack of openness in communication is this: What are they hiding? What don't they really want me to know? On the other hand, customers appreciate and value transparency, even with communication they don't necessarily agree with or like. Transparency in your communication is free and it generates untold amounts of customer goodwill in the long run.

    To my knowledge, we have never seen NG executive management engage here at all with the players. This game is NG's only revenue-generating product. Other companies elect to have top level management regularly participate in open customer forums. For example, Elon Musk regularly publically responds to customer tweets. Why can't your executive management participate in some capacity here at least in some limited fashion? It is too bad they have elected not to do this.

    It's unfortunate, but the two most transparent sources of information we get from NG are your financial quarterly reports and your job postings on your website. I know you can do better here in being more open in this forum in the future.

    Take this with all due respect, but NG would have more satisfied customers, and their bottom line would be healthier if they just practiced the simple, golden rule in dealing with customers. Treat customers exactly the way you would want to be treated as a customer.
    TroublemakerPutchuco
  • GeirGeir Member Posts: 39
    @kaz I hope you and your team will find a fast solution on this.
    What ever the choice NG will do will make you lose players.
    I most tired of waiting for the solution.
    I have around 40000 gold left and after the gold used I stop play.
    Before I got weapon , gold and phones from shop and happy to use because I love play.

    Now the situation I sit wait and wait for the final decision.
    I hope it will come fast.
    I don't like UC but please do something fast so players can make up there mind to stay or go .

    Maybe the solution is to have a challenge for players tired of play and players love to play with separate score .
    Kaz
  • CaliCaliforniaCaliCalifornia Member Posts: 24
    Wait? Where do I vote? I didn’t see the poll! Dang it. Oh well.
  • Japes87Japes87 Member Posts: 1,399
    @Jaden I completely agree and well said . I think allowing people to hold on to their round passes to use when they want , along with passes every 3 rounds and no cool down timer is a great solution that bypasses the need for any kind of ultimate challenge . It allows the grinders to grind , endgamers to grind less, and even allows for personal preference where someone may enjoy grinding a little more in a challenge they enjoy . I'm surprised this isn't suggested more often
    berg280
  • WellyLugaWellyLuga Member Posts: 1,823
    It's also worth pointing out that the raised min/max of tokens in crates was very much appreciated, it would nice for this to be a permanent feature. It wouldn't be game breaking, on average you got somewhere in the range of 20-30 tokens rather than the often seen 9-10!

    I actually managed to get a crate with 40 Abraham tokens in one but deleted the screenshot.
    lyts1985Kazmack22
  • KazKaz Member Posts: 1,423
    edited February 2018
    nadecir said:

    Kaz said:

    EVERYONE!

    Thanks once again for all the feedback, it seems this is the right way to go but we did receive some complaints as well, so we might not implement this model right away and we are probably going with very close one.

    Also now we are going to take the time to analyze the data we have so we can implement a definitive one as soon as possible. We really want to make it happen, but we can't run it for another week or decrease the number of round passes in the meantime.

    This week we will return to the default settings as I've previously announced and I KNOW, this means that grinding all the way to the top will be back, BUT we can't really run this UC again or running it with less round passes for now.

    HOWEVER, we will have some cool, different and requested event this weekend that you guys might enjoy! :)

    @Kaz Take this as constructive criticism, but this messaging here could use some improvement.
    Awesome! I always appreciate that!

    First of all, you say "We can't run it for..". However, you've already proven that you can run the challenge this way, and you can do it again if you so desire. You are electing not to run this challenge again for your own reasons that you have decided not to share.
    Oh, it was more in a sense that "we can't" because we don't know yet the consequences of running it straight without the proper analysis. But not that we have no power to do it or something like that. Run it for a test and communicate it beforehand, yeah, we can totally go for it since it's a great way to collect feedback. But deciding something without checking how it really affects our game, then it's something we need to put some more thinking before making a decision. So that was the reason and sorry if it was not clear in the first place!

    You also say you are "probably going with a very close one". If this is true, why not continue to run this challenge again if it's closer to the long-term model? Going backward makes little sense. You did mention that you did receive some complaints. You are always going to have complaints about any change. It's much too easy to rely on these complaints to abdicate responsibility for your decision making.
    I see... The reason is pretty much the same as the one above. I've said "probably going with a very close one" as this is my perception so far as I'm looking at written feedback and not server numbers/data. Comparing the 3 UC's, this one was far the best (at least from player's perspective). However, not even 5% of our players are vocal. So even knowing that you guys in the forum/SoMe/Tickets represent the voice of our community, the only way to understand the feelings of our non-vocal players about this event is by checking data from what happened inside the game.
    I do understand that changes always generates complaints, but if we somehow could take those complaints, understand it and take it into account to improve this challenge model even more, then we should take this opportunity. Running it again without knowing how it affects our game could be a very risky a bad move.

    Finally, you try to deflect your difficult message by mentioning the new events. That's great, but it really has nothing to do with the issue here.

    The players here would appreciate more transparency by NG. This seems counter to the NG corporate culture, unfortunately. In your interview with Pain_Walker it was very evident that you were afraid to give away too much information. That's too bad and we can only assume that's the way you been instructed to communicate.
    Haha, but it's a cool event! And it was more like to show something like: "Ah, we know that you guys want the UC, but hey, since we are analyzing stuff, we are running another event that you guys requested previously!" So was trying to make sure that we are still listening and attending players' requests. :)
    In my interview, I also said why I'm not giving away too much information. If somehow something changes along the way, even if properly communicated, the whole company pays the price. So we need to be really careful about what we make public. We try to be as much transparent as we can. Here in the community or through annual report releases, but some things must be kept as a secret as, again, it could cause the exact opposite effect. :(

    Customers will assume that companies are treating them poorly when information is obviously being withheld. The first question that comes to a customer's mind with an obvious lack of openness in communication is this: What are they hiding? What don't they really want me to know? On the other hand, customers appreciate and value transparency, even with communication they don't necessarily agree with or like. Transparency in your communication is free and it generates untold amounts of customer goodwill in the long run.
    I guess my previous answer also addressed that! So yeah, we want to be transparent, but it can go the other way around. We are working on improve that though!

    To my knowledge, we have never seen NG executive management engage here at all with the players. This game is NG's only revenue-generating product. Other companies elect to have top level management regularly participate in open customer forums. For example, Elon Musk regularly publically responds to customer tweets. Why can't your executive management participate in some capacity here at least in some limited fashion? It is too bad they have elected not to do this.

    It's unfortunate, but the two most transparent sources of information we get from NG are your financial quarterly reports and your job postings on your website. I know you can do better here in being more open in this forum in the future.
    Hmmmmmm, that's interesting, but then it's up to the company way of working. I'm now responsible for the player-facing communication, so my role is basically being your voice inside the company. A lot of things are being done because of player's feedback and I'm also trying to improve our communication. But I THINK this suggestion won't happen but feel free to always speak your mind (as you've just done) because if the executive management has an information that can go public, I can certainly share it as well.

    Take this with all due respect, but NG would have more satisfied customers, and their bottom line would be healthier if they just practiced the simple, golden rule in dealing with customers. Treat customers exactly the way you would want to be treated as a customer.
    For sure! Thanks a lot for the constructive feedback! Your main concern is also ones of mine and I do want to improve our communication and actions. It won't change for tomorrow, but I'm sure they will in the long run! And again, keep speaking your mind and I'll do my best to answer and hopefully make you a satisfied customer again!
    Japes87KyrusGeneral_PainJaden
  • ShteevieShteevie Staff Posts: 1,335
    nadecir said:


    Take this as constructive criticism, but this messaging here could use some improvement.

    I know Kaz has already replied, and I respect his answers a representative of his position and the community liaison for the team. However, I wanted to give some answers of my own here to share my opinion. I have been on the end of similarly pointed questions before, and they aren't always a pleasure to deal with.
    nadecir said:


    First of all, you say "We can't run it for..". However, you've already proven that you can run the challenge this way, and you can do it again if you so desire. You are electing not to run this challenge again for your own reasons that you have decided not to share.

    We have shared them: we need the time to analyze player behavior, support ticket feedback, have meetings to determine what the next move will be, plan the messaging and announcements, work it into the event schedule, coordinate with Social Media to educate the entire playerbase that this is a permanent change, check the game's economy to ensure we're not doing something that will see as detrimental in the long run, etc. etc. etc. We've done some planning for how these events will be structured up to now, and this step for "review and make a decision" has always been there.

    I think that, in all transparency, our players appreciate a company that makes the most well-considered choices possible, doesn't "shoot from the hip", and cares about the outcomes of the choices we make and how they affect our players. Frankly, running the event for an extra week to filter out the conflation of feedback between the difficulty format and the Hilltop difficulty bug pushed back the release of the new normal system by a week. However, I and many others here on the forums will be happy for data and feedback that focus on the changes we planned to make, rather than the ones that we didn't.
    nadecir said:


    You also say you are "probably going with a very close one". If this is true, why not continue to run this challenge again if it's closer to the long-term model? Going backward makes little sense. You did mention that you did receive some complaints. You are always going to have complaints about any change. It's much too easy to rely on these complaints to abdicate responsibility for your decision making.

    And by your staement that "we'll always have complaints", are you suggesting that we ignore those complaints? If so, do we ignore those complaints because they came from players that are not in your same cohort?

    To be perfectly transparent, I think our players would prefer that we consider the play experiences of all of our players - new, old, paid, free, and in between - rather than only focusing on the loudest, highest-spending, English-speaking, or other dividing cohort. This is a game for everyone, and everyone deserves to have the best experience we can bring. Not just in the next 5 days, but for the next several years.
    nadecir said:


    Finally, you try to deflect your difficult message by mentioning the new events. That's great, but it really has nothing to do with the issue here.

    Other events are absolutely relevant. Isn't the whole discussion about monotony and lack of variety? Why, then, should all of the effort put into game development focus on only one game mode, when we can help lead players to a wider variety of experiences in the Challenge and in other game modes?

    In the spirit of transparency, I'd like to state that we have every intention of continuing to support all of our game modes as best we can, and we invite players to play all of them, seeking out the rewards and playing in the events that they like most. With time and effort, we'd like to continue to improve all of them in turn, and give players the freedome to do what they like in No Man's Land.
    nadecir said:


    The players here would appreciate more transparency by NG. This seems counter to the NG corporate culture, unfortunately. In your interview with @Pain_Walker it was very evident that you were afraid to give away too much information. That's too bad and we can only assume that's the way you been instructed to communicate.

    We don't make promises we don't know we can keep. We can't control the rumor mill. If Kaz had said "I'd love to see a pinball table in the Camp that the players can play to win XP", some portion of the community would expect that in the game tomorrow, and the lack of a pinball table would haunt us for months. We are constantly planning for features that take months to develop, and we are also reevaluating those plans to give the best version of them that we can in the time that we have. To say anything more specific would lead to confusion, disappointment, and claims of broken promises down the road. This is why those plans are not given in more detail than they are.

    To be perfectly transparent, there is no plan to add a pinball machine to the camp at this time.
    nadecir said:


    Customers will assume that companies are treating them poorly when information is obviously being withheld. The first question that comes to a customer's mind with an obvious lack of openness in communication is this: What are they hiding? What don't they really want me to know? On the other hand, customers appreciate and value transparency, even with communication they don't necessarily agree with or like. Transparency in your communication is free and it generates untold amounts of customer goodwill in the long run.

    What's the next specialty milkshake flavor that McDonalds will launch? What players will be traded to the Red Sox in the offseason? Will the next iPhone have a new chip in it, and how fast will it run? If you have the answers to questions like these from other companies, I'd like to know the sources of your information, because there is a lot of stock price movement that could happen based on the data you apparently have.

    To be absolutely transparent, since Next Games is a publicly traded company, news of products, features, business partnerships in development will have an immediate and possibly massive impact on the valuation of the business. This means that the leaking of this developmental and confidential information run the risks of causing serious financial harm to the company, which would hamper our ability to continue to operate the game get a person fired for making claims that the market received poorly, or possibly land someone in jail if stock trades could be seen to be made in ways that violate information security laws.

    Please don't ask me to risk my job or freedom for the sake of you buying a gas booster this week instead of next week. Surely the human rights of the development of the team are worth a modicum of respect.

    Development Team Member - The Walking Dead: No Man's Land
    Please note: Development is a fluid process, and suggestions and implementation take time and iteration. Any discussion of future features, deadlines, updates, balance changes, and such should be considered prospective and subject to change.
    RealClareBTroublemakerkkatsuKyrus
  • ShteevieShteevie Staff Posts: 1,335
    nadecir said:


    To my knowledge, we have never seen NG executive management engage here at all with the players. This game is NG's only revenue-generating product. Other companies elect to have top level management regularly participate in open customer forums. For example, Elon Musk regularly publically responds to customer tweets. Why can't your executive management participate in some capacity here at least in some limited fashion? It is too bad they have elected not to do this.

    Please send a hand-written letter, in gold ink on sheepskin, from the CEO of your company to me, and I will hand deliver it to my CEO. We will then be able to set up a personal meeting between them, and the first question we'll ask is what the CEO has to do with the challenge difficulty progression rules.

    To show transparency, I will state for the record that the paragraph above is not the position of Next Games or the No Man's Land development team, but mine alone. The No Mans Land team is entrusted to do the research, put in the effort, and deliver the best game we can to our players. Any questions you might ask a member of management about the game would be referred to us anyways. Any questions you might have about resource allocation, company plans for the far future, or business strategy would be unanswerable for the same reasons I can't tell you who the next Hero or game mode will be.

    To the Musk example, I'll remind you that SpaceX is a private firm, that everyone has the right to run their business as they see fit, and that no one on this forums has held you to standards set by Shakespeare, Hank Aaron, or Abe Lincoln.
    nadecir said:


    It's unfortunate, but the two most transparent sources of information we get from NG are your financial quarterly reports and your job postings on your website. I know you can do better here in being more open in this forum in the future.

    I wonder what kinds of questions you think we can answer that would not be seen as implicit promises, divulging confidential information, or potentially damaging to the company? Try asking these sorts of questions to an author, TV show runner, or musician, and you will receive exactly the same kinds of answers we give you: "We're still working on it, so we can't say for sure how it will come out. But we're very eager to show you what we are working on as soon as it's ready."

    Creative endeavors, like game development, are always happening in a state of flux. Transparency into our goals, aspirations, and the kinds of experiences we desire our players to have is far more revealing and reliable than asking for specifics on work that hasn't been completed yet. Games-as-a-servince are perhaps the most tentative of all mediums except perhaps live television. Every decision is made in the context of the situation at hand, and in the direction of the current goal. Both change as the market changes. The market changes constantly.
    nadecir said:


    Take this with all due respect, but NG would have more satisfied customers, and their bottom line would be healthier if they just practiced the simple, golden rule in dealing with customers. Treat customers exactly the way you would want to be treated as a customer.

    Take my replies above with all due respect, and then some. Every player reading this is near and dear to me personally, and extremely valuable to the development team as a whole. To put it simply, we work 40 or more hours a week for years to give you a few hours of fun on the weekends and when you have free time. To imply that we somehow don't wish for the game to be fun, or rewarding, or a worthwhile use of our players' time is to imply that we, as creators, have no hopes or desires to be successful in our careers. I hope that you can see, from me to you, how that is not an implication that can be taken lightly.

    As a final statement on transparency, I'll remind you that these answers are from my personal point of view. The development team is happy to have a few different means of communication with our players, and there are a number of ways in which that communication has improved the game. But in all due respect, the information we provide is not flippantly given, and promises mean a lot to us. It's important that the answers we give are respected as the best answers that can be given. We do respect the comments of each of our players with precisely the amount of respect with which those comments are given.
    Development Team Member - The Walking Dead: No Man's Land
    Please note: Development is a fluid process, and suggestions and implementation take time and iteration. Any discussion of future features, deadlines, updates, balance changes, and such should be considered prospective and subject to change.
    RealClareBGeneral_Pain
  • General_PainGeneral_Pain Content Creator Posts: 2,462
  • nadecirnadecir Member Posts: 242
    @Kaz @Shteevie

    Thanks for responding to me in this thread. I did want to clarify one item. Yes, Musk is CEO of SpaceX a private company. He's also CEO of Tesla, Inc. a public company (NASDAQ: TSLA). He often personally responds to Tesla customer issues and suggestions publically, and he sometimes even announces Telsa future plans via Twitter. That said, every company can decide at what level executive management communicates with its most valued resource, its customers, and what management are willing to discuss publically with them.

    I would be careful about making assumptions about any players here. I don't know about gold ink on sheepskin (LOL), but producing a hand-written letter from the CEO of my company would not be difficult at all for me. And I know I am not the only player here in that position.

    I would not expect NG to divulge trade secrets, or to provide details of business arrangments with partners, or to provide detailed information on future product releases, or to provide any selective disclosure of market-sensitive information here. And yes, I have served in executive management positions in public companies, albeit not in Finland but in the U.S. So I well aware of what this means. By the way, there is more regulatory latitude than you are alluding to in revealing product information. I can't think of anything you could reveal "to risk job or freedom for the sake of you buying a gas booster this week instead of next week" in terms of violating security regulations. For example, if you told us "there's an increased radio drop event coming on Thursday, so we should buy a gas booster this week, and there's an unlimited gas event next week so don't worry about buying one then", it would not violate any laws that I am aware.

    If that is what you are really concerned about, I suggest some training for all your companies' employees about what the disclosure of market-sensitive information really means is in order.

    I do believe answers to some questions about NML would enhance player satisfaction with it.

    With this in mind, I will try to get this conversation back from the "waste of time" to a more productive discussion now. Shteevie was wondering about specific questions that I might have that would not be seen as implicit promises. Many player questions here deal with current game behavior, not future game enhancements or direction.

    Here are two questions that players have asked that NG has elected not to answer in the past. These are just examples of where I believe NG transparency is lacking:

    1. What is the base chance of a body shot, normal hit, or a critical hit on an opponent by one of your survivors? The players assume these chances vary by the difference in level between the survivor and enemy. Is this true, or is there a variance in the hit chances by the difference in levels?
    2. What effects does the combination of different components have in the crafting of badges? Are there specific recipes that change the resulting outcome of crafted badges in any way?

    There are more questions about this game like this that the player base here has asked previously. If NG would be more willing to be transparent and answered these questions about this current game openly, the player experience would be enhanced for all.

    I have also suggested that NG be more open with the status of bugs in this game. I suggested a specific way to do so using this forum in another thread. Players here don't expect commitments on when bugs will be fixed. We just want to know if issues in the game are planned to be fixed, or have been marked as "working as intended" or "we don't have any plans to fix this one" or "we are working on this one for the next release - no promises though". We all realize that these categorizations can change at any time, so there are no implicit promises with any issues. Plans are subject to change at any moment.

    Thanks once again for listening.
    Troublemakerpaintbeast
  • FirekidFirekid Member Posts: 1,853
    I love the new @Shteevie since he's been leaving! More brutal and less towing the party line! You must have been sick to the back teeth with some of these repetitive whinging comments about the game that we all love. Why on earth would you let us know if and when we need to buy a booster, or when radio events are coming up? They want people to buy these things all the time they aren't ever gonna say don't bother buying one till next week! Love the questions asked and the answers given. Now let's hope for a phone event Wednesday or Thursday to make the grind worthwhile!
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