Do Defensive Stance and Iron Skin/Damage Reduction stack or multiply?

BoukephalosBoukephalos Member Posts: 263
edited March 2018 in Strategy Discussion
I've heard two different stories about the interaction between DS and IS/DR.

The first is that they stack, so that damage reduction is calculated something like this:

(100 - (Iron Skin + Defensive Stance + Damage Reduction badges))% * Damage


The other is that they apply sequentially, something like this:

Damage * (100 - (IS + DR badges))% * (100 - DS)%


The How Badges Affect Survivors thread claims the first forumula is correct but the author admits that's an untested assumption.

Does anybody have data/evidence to back either one? Or a different one?

It'd be very useful to know for sure; with some toons (e.g. Morgan, who has both DS and IS), it could sometimes free up a badge slot for another use.

(Yes, I know there's an 80% cap on damage reduction and that DS has to be triggered while IS always works. These things were left out of the equations to keep them simple).
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Comments

  • CBgaming1969CBgaming1969 Member Posts: 1,359
    @Boukephalos the best to answer your question is @jimmorrison369 or @DLich
    ekimhclew
  • bladgierbladgier Member Posts: 2,001
    edited May 2018
    Edit and delete this comment because I was wrong*
    TJS
  • JackBauerJackBauer Member Posts: 1,550
    Someone ran some tests and convinced me that this is the formula to calculate the 80%

    Example:
    50% DS
    28% badges + 32% iron skin = 60% damage reduction.

    100-60= 40
    40 * 50%= 20
    20+60=80% max
    -----------------
    Remember to use your charge abilities
  • BoukephalosBoukephalos Member Posts: 263
    So that's a vote for the second version from @JackBauer and the first version from @bladgier. JackBauer has seen evidence but hasn't shown it here.

    (bladgier, I did put a note at the end saying that I know all those extra details but they aren't relevant to the "which of these two is the correct basic mechanism?" question. I know those details, I don't need them spoon fed and they aren't relevant here unless they play a special role in the calculations that makes them different yet again to the two alternatives)
  • JackBauerJackBauer Member Posts: 1,550
    “The survivor takes xx% less damage from attacks.”

    “Increase Damage resistance by xx%”

    After reading it now for a couple times it is even more clear for me that it is multiplicative. It’s like with luck when it says “improves chances that .... by xx%” and we all know how luck is “added”.

    First your initial damage is calculated and then defensive stance is factored in.
    -----------------
    Remember to use your charge abilities
  • bladgierbladgier Member Posts: 2,001
    I'd never think that such a simple thing could be made so difficult :D


    All you need to do is add every single damage reduction you have, such as survivor trait, gear trait, badge, then add them all together.

    Then if you're in d stance add it to. If you're not in d stance then don't add it. If its over 80%, you get 80% damage reduction, if it's less, that's what you get.

    That's it.
    PR0DJ
  • PutchucoPutchuco Member Posts: 1,289
    Apparently, @pro_dj has run some tests and says it is:

    100 - ( 100- sum( all IS + Dmg Reduc)) * ( 100- sum( all DS))
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    contact us via email at [email protected]
    sbfJackBauerPR0DJ
  • TroublemakerTroublemaker Member Posts: 1,255
    I agree with @pro_dj tests in my gameplay experience. Can't confirm anything though.
    ::
    Mavericks Guild Family
    PR0DJ
  • bladgierbladgier Member Posts: 2,001
    Let's not mix 2 things here.

    1.Damage reduction is one thing.

    2. damage reduction towards damage received calculation regards to rsl and walker damage this is 2nd thing.


    This thread question was about damage reduction only. At least that's how I've seen it.
    PR0DJ
  • BoukephalosBoukephalos Member Posts: 263
    edited March 2018
    bladgier said:

    I'd never think that such a simple thing could be made so difficult :D

    You seem to be inhabiting a different universe to the rest of the people in the thread.

    All you need to do is add every single damage reduction you have, such as survivor trait, gear trait, badge, then add them all together.



    Then if you're in d stance add it to. If you're not in d stance then don't add it.
    If (iron skin plus DR badges) and DS are multiplied rather than added then no, you don't add it, no. Is your argument for them being added just that you want it to be simple and refuse to deal with a more complex answer?

    Let's not mix 2 things here.

    1.Damage reduction is one thing.

    2. damage reduction towards damage received calculation regards to rsl and walker damage this is 2nd thing.

    This thread question was about damage reduction only. At least that's how I've seen it.
    I have no idea what you're going on about now, and it was my damn question.

    My question was about how Iron Skin, Damage Reduction Badges and Defensive Stance combine to reduce damage. What is the algorithm when all three are in play. I really don't understand where you have gone with this or who you are arguing with or about what.

    I posted two simple alternative algorithms. You think it's the first one, everybody else (so far) thinks it's the other. The others at least are clear about what they are talking about and why. You're just insisting it's the first, not saying why, and having some other argument I can't follow, quite possibly one that nobody else is having with you.
    bigbeanobladgierromeo
  • sbfsbf Member Posts: 466
    I did some tests with the formula from @PR0DJ of how much damage reduction DS gives when a guildmate shared it and the numbers all fit into the allowable range. It was a small sample set (10 missions that I let my Abe get beat down hard), but the equation suggested 70% damage reduction in overwatch instead of normal stacking which had me believe I was at the 80% cap, and the data I collected was all in the 70% damage reduction area, so my money is on @PR0DJ's formula.
    PR0DJ
  • bladgierbladgier Member Posts: 2,001
    edited March 2018
    @Boukephalos you have cracked my wide open.


    @tabernac nothing has changed in that regard since damage reduction (iron skin) was introduced.

    Which is like looooooong time ago.

    Only thing that has changed is more ways to add up damage reduction and the cap.


    All you need to do guys is sum up, that's it. And not go over 80%.

    No need to get fancy pants wise about it. Like I said, it's simple.
    antPR0DJ
  • bladgierbladgier Member Posts: 2,001
    @Jenng can I get a meme on that 1 please
    Jenng
  • JackBauerJackBauer Member Posts: 1,550
    edited March 2018
    One could also make a table showing how much IS+DRB is necessary with a given DS to achieve the cap limit of 80%
    -----------------
    Remember to use your charge abilities
    Putchucosbftabernacbigbeano
  • OneLessTitanOneLessTitan Member Posts: 1,273
    edited April 2018
    and just when you think this game can't get any more fucked up...

    EDIT: **game's MATH
    tabernacbigbeanoJackBauerromeo
  • ShadowaceAzShadowaceAz Member Posts: 3,402

    Here's a little something I found while making a new section for the site...maybe this can help provide a little insight into why they don't just add up...and maybe not...

    From 2.2 Update Notes in October 2016

    Several sources of Damage Reduction now combine in such a way that total immunity to damage is no longer possible. This includes Damage Reduction from Cover, Traits, and buffs.

    For example, a character taking 100 damage from an incoming attack who has Iron Skin at 10% and is benefitting from cover will now take 45 damage.

    In this example, 100 times .9 [-10% for Iron Skin] times .5 [-50% for cover] = 45. 

    Doesn't it say Maximum damage reduction is 80%?
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    Concordia

  • jimmorrison369jimmorrison369 Member Posts: 1,931
    @OneLessTitan

    Not sure they changed defensive stance there. It was more about cover being potentially a loophole to get zero damage.
  • jimmorrison369jimmorrison369 Member Posts: 1,931
    Uh, maybe they did. Who knows. Nvm
  • BoukephalosBoukephalos Member Posts: 263
    So the consensus seems to be for a multiplicative algorithm and DR badges stacking with IS. Now, where does Jerry's
    Scowley said:

    All this makes we wish harder for a survivors stats page that shows me the percentage rather than guess or visit one of you maths wizards.

    Given the state of the game's codebase, the data on such a page would be unreliable. Have you ever noticed that the stats on the survivor details pages can vary depending on which hero you last used in a team (e.g. Jesus or Abraham)? I think the only time the game is even close to definitively knowing what's happening to a toon is when a mission starts.

  • mik81mik81 Member Posts: 360
    @Kaz

    This is the stuff that really pisses me off... We have two Survivor Traits that are related to Damage Resistance but they don't get add, they get multiplied, making both traits less effective... Can we get some clarification here? Why can we get real good info on things that matter? The in game explanation of traits are so random, vague and inaccurate that you could just delete them. Why has to be so hard to make an informed decision in this game? Oh yes, because we don't have any info and we live in the darkness...
    I'm not asking for a formula... we should know what is our total damage reduction, total damage, total critic chances.... you know basic stuff.

    A lvl 26 fatty should do 1063 (according to other posts here) so I'm thinking that maybe if @tabernac increases the damage resistance on his badges he may even drop a bit the damage received and therefore the formula may need some tweaks.

  • OneLessTitanOneLessTitan Member Posts: 1,273

    Here's a little something I found while making a new section for the site...maybe this can help provide a little insight into why they don't just add up...and maybe not...

    From 2.2 Update Notes in October 2016

    Several sources of Damage Reduction now combine in such a way that total immunity to damage is no longer possible. This includes Damage Reduction from Cover, Traits, and buffs.

    For example, a character taking 100 damage from an incoming attack who has Iron Skin at 10% and is benefitting from cover will now take 45 damage.

    In this example, 100 times .9 [-10% for Iron Skin] times .5 [-50% for cover] = 45. 

    Doesn't it say Maximum damage reduction is 80%?
    The notes from the update was from long ago (October 2016), but eventually they did announce the damage res. cap.
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