Michonne + badges + math = head explode

ShadowaceAzShadowaceAz Member Posts: 3,402
Hoping @OneLessTitan or @jimmorrison369 or @AnyOtherMathGuru could assist in my quandary.


Using; I'm trying to max Michonne's potential for this particular Challenge as I am hitting a wall too early with the respawn as they are.

First, I have an Epic Michonne. She has a +12% damage with her Strong trait (This is part of the question)

I know in the long run that % damage badge will outlast a flat damage badge. However at this moment, I'm trying to figure out if a +11% damage, or +110 damage would for the time being assist more.
     the +110 would be part of a set so it gets the +20% boost making it +132

A level 20 Epic warrior damage is 912. Michonne as a hero gets a 0.30 multiplier on damage, so now it's 1185 damage.

If I understand correctly, I am guessing the +11% is better simply by the image from OLT's post:


However, I don't know if strong bonus would be added to the +% damage and/or +# damage badge.

Would someone be kind enough to tell me if I am correct that +% in this example is still better than the + damage badge?
Descensus in cuniculi cavum
Vir prudens non contra ventum mingit
Concordia

Comments

  • WellyLugaWellyLuga Member Posts: 2,213
    I'm not an expert like the others but fairly sure it's been documented that strong is added first directly to base damage. Then damage% badges come after that. It depends on your level but I think from 23/24 on % is always better
  • ShadowaceAzShadowaceAz Member Posts: 3,402
    She be baby still, only level 20, if I didn't point that out.
    Descensus in cuniculi cavum
    Vir prudens non contra ventum mingit
    Concordia

  • ShadowaceAzShadowaceAz Member Posts: 3,402
    No other advice before next challenge begins?
    Descensus in cuniculi cavum
    Vir prudens non contra ventum mingit
    Concordia

  • CBgaming1969CBgaming1969 Member Posts: 1,359
    I just got Michonne @ShadowaceAz so the only advice badge wise is that the numbered badge that goes to 132 with the multiplier is slightly better for her, but that won't remain that way as you promote her. Having luck and threat reduction weaponized scouts to back her up helps. The last challenge, even though I'm a ranged team user, used 24 Michonne with a 90% angle and luck, 24 Glenn with a threat reduction and luck lvl 22 weapon and Carol with 27 spear got 3stars on 30.2 Sunday...

    Wish on of the mathematical players would have answered you.

    But to recap...the 132 badge is slightly better at lvl 20 than the 11% badge is...but you will want to swap them out as you lvl her up...my opinion only...
    Boukephalos
  • BoukephalosBoukephalos Member Posts: 263
    edited May 2018


    A level 20 Epic warrior damage is 912. Michonne as a hero gets a 0.30 multiplier on damage, so now it's 1185 damage.

    Michonne's base damage as a level 20 epic is 1123, in fact. You're making the same misunderstanding I did about @OneLessTitan's percentages I did - to be fair, that's a very easy mistake to make and the actual base numbers you need to perform hero trait calculations aren't easy to find - you have to work backwards and then forwards again from OLT's survivor base health/damage graphs. I will try to explain...

    Michonne has a boost of 0.3 - but you don't multiply an ordinary level 20 epic warrior's damage by 1.3. You add that 0.3 to the 1.2 boost of a level 20 epic warrior to get 1.5 and that is the figure by which you multiply the base damage of a common (1-star) level 20 warrior. I don't know of anywhere the mutilpliers for ordinary survivors are listed (maybe @CBgaming1969 does). It is possible to work them out by analysing and working backwards from the final figures on OLT's page.

    A simpler way do do it: if you scroll further down the forum thread you linked to, you'll the post where OneLessTitan gives a fuller explanation of how those percentage multipliers work. If you look at the full graph he provides there, you'll see he shows the effective prestige (stars) that each hero gets at each level and prestige. Then look up OLT's ordinary survivor base traits page using that.

    This graph:

    image

    (Visible again for the first time since the 2.9 update, although where it can be found other than that thread I don't know. Ask @CBgaming1969)

    To answer your question...

    Based on that base damage and assuming you have a decent weapon (e.g. legendary level 19 or level 20 weapon upgraded to level 22/23), then the 11% badge is better now, at her current level 20/epic status with Strong upgraded to 4, even if the 11% badge isn't part of a set (you didn't specify). She could get something between 100 and 300 extra damage from the %damage badge compared to the flat damage badge, depending on her weapon It's true even if she currently has no badges and still true if you have other %damage badges on her (the comparison in that case is more complicated because %damage badges apply after flat damage badges).

    So give her the %damage badge. It's better now and will be much better when you level her.







  • CBgaming1969CBgaming1969 Member Posts: 1,359
    It is my understanding that damage badges deal with a survivor/hero base damage. Am I somehow wrong about that @Boukephalos?

    Little help here someone...
  • CBgaming1969CBgaming1969 Member Posts: 1,359
    Base damage of 1000 and 11% damage badge = 110+1000=1110.

    Base damage 1000 and 132 flat damage badge = 132+1000=1132.

    1132 is still higher than 1110...correct???
    Boukephalos
  • CBgaming1969CBgaming1969 Member Posts: 1,359
    I don't believe the damage badge has an effect on the strong trait outside of any part of it calculating the base damage of a particular survivor/hero @ShadowaceAz
  • CBgaming1969CBgaming1969 Member Posts: 1,359
    Now the strong trait may be off of the new base damage including the badge, but the 11% won't stack on the strong trait...to say this survivor/hero strong trait will deal 6% more damage and you add 11% damage badge the strong trait will not deal 17% more damage...
  • BoukephalosBoukephalos Member Posts: 263
    edited May 2018

    It is my understanding that damage badges deal with a survivor/hero base damage. Am I somehow wrong about that ?

    You are wrong about that, yes. The calculation is described here and matches the results of OneLessTitans calculator. Check the fields in the calculator, if you don't believe me. %damage badges are applied last, to the total damage calculated at that point. Which means that flat badges have a cascade effect on percent badges.

    I'm really not sure where you're going with the rest of that.

    CBgaming1969
  • CBgaming1969CBgaming1969 Member Posts: 1,359
    @Boukephalos The base damage is calculated before the badge is applied. All of the traits, weapons, armor, etc. that go into making up the base damage are not magically amplified or increased by a badge that that is solely calculated off of the base damage.

    Help me out here @jimmorrison369, @DLich, @OneLessTitan
  • CBgaming1969CBgaming1969 Member Posts: 1,359
    edited May 2018
    @Boukephalos nobody is talking about badges stacking on badges in this thread. I'm fairly sure that is not what @ShadowaceAz is asking.

    So I'm not sure where the cascade effect answer is coming from...
  • DLichDLich Member Posts: 5,530
    I hate math!!

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  • BoukephalosBoukephalos Member Posts: 263
    edited May 2018


    @Boukephalos The base damage is calculated before the badge is applied

    I know, And Michonne's base damage at level 20, prestige 4 (epic) is 1123. That's the result of my own calculations and OLTs. OLT himself verified that my calculations were correct. I feel I have to emphasise that since you accused me of being a self-glorifying liar. Accuracy is important.

    . All of the traits, weapons, armor, etc. that go into making up the base damage are not magically amplified or increased by a badge that that is solely calculated off of the base damage.

    Flat badges are added after strength multiplications. Percentage badges are applied after flat badges and weapon damage and Strong/Marksman and Lethal and the hero boost. Neither flat badges or percentage badges are calculated solely on the basis of base damage. Flat badges aren't affected by base damage at all. Percentage badges are effected by all the other calculations, because they don't apply just to base damage but to all the other calculations applied to base damage. Are you following me?

    If a survivor has two %damage badges and I add a third, the first two %damage badges have no impact on how much damage the third badge adds, because their percentages are added together and then applied to the previous calculations. But if they have two %damage badges and then I add a flat damage, both %damage badges now have a bigger effect, because they both magnify the value of the flat damage badge.

    With me so far?

    CBgaming1969
  • CBgaming1969CBgaming1969 Member Posts: 1,359
    edited May 2018
    Excuse me @Boukephalos ????
    When did I acuse you of anything???
  • CBgaming1969CBgaming1969 Member Posts: 1,359
    Nope you lost me, I believe we are having 2 completely different conversations...and I know I never called you anything @Boukephalos
  • BoukephalosBoukephalos Member Posts: 263
    edited May 2018
    In my heroes base damage thread, where I was trying to find out how the algorithm for hero base damage works and you were shocked that I'd even ask OLT a question about it. So I'm being extra careful to cite sources and the working involved.

    Now, @CBgaming1969, Michonne's base damage at epic level 20 is 1123 (don't have the patience to argue that, calculations are available in the other thread). Strong 4 gives a 12% bonus raising that 1258. If there are no other relevant traits, then the best weapon a level 20 hero can have (legendary level 20 upgraded to 23) is 1265, raising the total to 2523.

    So, if the other damage badges are all %damage badges or if there are no other damage badges, then an 11% damage badge adds 278 damage if it isn't part of a set and 338 if it is. Clearly a win over the flat damage badge.

    If there are no other damage badges, then the 110 damage, being part of a set, adds 132 damage.

    But if there are existing percentage damage badges, then they apply after the flat damage badge. So if there were already two 11% damage badges, adding up to 22%, then adding a 110 damage badge would actually add 181 damage, because the existing %damage badges would magnify it. That's what I mean by the cascade effect. It's still lower than the 11% badge, of course.

    Clear?
    CBgaming1969ShadowaceAz
  • CBgaming1969CBgaming1969 Member Posts: 1,359
    Not clear at all, that was not the question that @ShadowaceAz asked.

    In that I simple wondered why you would ask a question and answer it yourself while arguing with a person who was trying to help you @Boukephalos. That is a valid question and by no means is accusing you of being a "self-glorifying liar" you are out of bounds...
    bigbeano
  • BoukephalosBoukephalos Member Posts: 263

    Not clear at all, that was not the question that @ShadowaceAz asked.

    I answered his question accurately. I even added extra information where he didn't specify all the factors (e.g. other damage badges) in case they were relevant. You seemed to have some difficulty with that. Are you still questioning the results?

    In that I simple wondered why you would ask a question and answer it yourself while arguing with a person who was trying to help you
    https://forums.nextgames.com/walkingdead/discussion/34218/hero-base-traits-how-much-bigger-than-regular-toons#latest
    CBgaming1969
  • BoukephalosBoukephalos Member Posts: 263
    edited May 2018
    Are you still questioning the results, @CBgaming1969, or did I just pick up 4 disagrees because of a snit? I'm happy to take up the snit elsewhere, all I'm trying to do here is answer the question accurately.
  • ShadowaceAzShadowaceAz Member Posts: 3,402
    Thanks all. I think my tiny brain is seeing a glimpse of a shine up ahead.
    Descensus in cuniculi cavum
    Vir prudens non contra ventum mingit
    Concordia

  • WellyLugaWellyLuga Member Posts: 2,213
    I try to fight the urge to crawl into a ball in the corner, add the damage% badge and tell myself everything is going to be okay... :lol:

    From my understanding, universally damage% badges will work out better in the long run and contribute more to crit damage than +badges.
    Boukephalos
  • ShadowaceAzShadowaceAz Member Posts: 3,402
    WellyLuga said:

    I try to fight the urge to crawl into a ball in the corner, add the damage% badge and tell myself everything is going to be okay... :lol:

    From my understanding, universally damage% badges will work out better in the long run and contribute more to crit damage than +badges.

    Correct. Unless you are talking about low damage attacks like from an assault. I usually find +# badge in the long run adds more. (ymmv)
    Descensus in cuniculi cavum
    Vir prudens non contra ventum mingit
    Concordia

  • BoukephalosBoukephalos Member Posts: 263
    @WellyLuga True in the long term. That said, many of us are in the short to medium term where we don't have three %damage badges for every toon. I only have two survivors that fortunate; the other badged toons have a combination of +damage and %damage badges. Also, I'm a few levels away from the endgame stats which will make my few epic +damage badges trivial. Of course, if the random number generator is happy to throw some legendary %damage badges my way...
    WellyLuga
  • WellyLugaWellyLuga Member Posts: 2,213
    edited May 2018
    @Boukephalos Yeah I suppose it's easy for me to say but it comes with time. For a long, long time I got nothing but damage+ badges - it was odd I had dozens of damage badges but not one was %. Eventually I reached end game and have been able to get the epic frags in the distance twice a week which gives you a lot of throws of the dice :smile:
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