@Drhoo most refer to grind as the low easy boring levels
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yep, leave restaurant like quit playing but guess this post is exactly to avoid that... lets see if anything changes for better which is not the option @Danski_46 suggested :P
I don't think anyone has mentioned this yet, and I'm honestly shocked that it hasn't been said yet, but this is very important @Kaz . This week's challenge is going to result in some INSANE scores. That means that people will get a LOT of round passes. That means that next week will be BRUTAL with fewer rounds because people will WASTE round passes.
I am 100% in favor of shortening the challenge, especially with Guild Wars starting soon. However, you will NOT get a good response from anyone, end-gamers or mid-level players, because of the timing of the changes.
Please reconsider shortening next week's challenge. Implement one of your other solutions OR run a standard challenge where people can't get as far. There's nothing worse than the feeling of wasting a lot of accumulated RPs.
This has happened for every test of the UC: it runs after a no body shots event, or it runs after a challenge with exploding walkers. People get too many round passes, they skip too many levels, and they hate the UC when I think in reality it could be a really good thing.
PLEASE don't set yourself up for failure again this time.
Yeah someone mentioned it earlier, but it warrants repeating @JayZ
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There is a simple, elegant solution that has been suggested before that should be considered again. This solution is the best one I've seen, relative to the development resources that would be required. This solution is 100% future proofed, meeting once it's made, no further iterations would be needed. We don't ever have to have this conversation again with future council upgrades. This solution eliminates 'star loss' and it completely removes players having to guess or calculate when they should level up their survivors (no more leveling up 3 survivors to the new max impacting starting RSL).
I also believe that this solution is the one that will make the most people happy. @TransmuteJun has more time than me and she wants all the rewards possible? Problem solved. For me, if my TIME is more important than end of mission rewards? That problem is solved too.
The Suggestion: Essentially, a player chooses their starting level, with certain limitations. When a player starts a challenge, their 'recommended' starting level is presented to them. For the sake of this discussion, lets say that the suggested starting level is the level they achieved last challenge -10. So if I made it to round 32 last challenge, the default/recommended starting level would be 22. I could override that all the way down to the minimum starting level for any player all the way up to a maximum (for the sake of this discussion, let's say that the maximum is the level achieved last challenge - 5 or 27 in this case). Let me be the first to say that these minimums/maximums aren't written in stone at all... some thought would have to be given here, but the values presented are a good starting point for a discussion.
When a player chooses a starting level, they earn stars from all prior levels as if they had completed each challenge round perfectly. A player who plays from the minimum level all the way up to level 27 earns the same exact number of stars as someone who starts at level 27 (although the person starting at the lower level earns all the post mission crates).
One of the major advantages to this model is that I can plan accordingly based on my schedule as it changes. The week of Thanksgiving is approaching and I host and so won't have much time? I want to start that challenge at the maximum level I can start at. A few weeks later, I took the week off for Christmas, so I choose to start at a much lower level because I have the time.
The User Interface when staring a challenge with be similar to the round pass popup box. Instead of clicking on that 'Accept' button (or whatever that button is labeled) a player sees their default starting level and they can simply hit accept like they do today if they want to take the system generated recommendation. If they want to change it, they can... then hit the Accept button. Easy peasy lemon squeezy.
This solution eliminates:
Star loss (players getting to a certain RSL earn the exact same number of stars regardless of how they got there)
Players worrying about upgrading leading to a higher starting RSL for challenges
Future dev resources to address 'the grind'
This solution allows:
Players with less time to start at a higher RSL. They sacrifice end of mission reward crates to do this.
Players with more time or who want more rewards can start at a lower level.
A meaningful change with minimal development resources
Ok, NML forum community, go ahead... tear it apart.
Everyone’s got two wolves inside them. One is anger, envy, pride. The other…truth, kindness. Every day they tear each other apart. But it’s not the better wolf that wins. It’s the one you feed.
Really, anything but this roller coaster going back and forth. Be careful, don’t get many round passes, or watch people pass you by that normally finish well behind you, all because you start at a higher level...and oh by the way, that means fewer rewards for you and your Guild.
Hopefully something constructive can come from this, that will be middle ground for end gamers and beginners alike.
@Kaz Thank you for taking more time to address the issue of challenge grind. Right now, the amount of time it takes for some players to max out is ridiculous. I've never truly maxed out because time is always an issue. Anything to lessen the lower level grind and get to the good stuff faster is great in my book. So many legendary players have quit this game solely because of the challenge grind, and that is a damn shame. I love all the changes you've stated except for the special walker spawns. End gamers don't want a harder challenge, per se. The existing challenge maps are excellent how they are now. We just want to get to the challenging stuff faster. No need to artificially make the levels harder with special walker spawns.
My favorite answer to this problem is exactly what @Bill_ZRT suggested. It makes it a level playing field for all players. If you hate the grind, start higher! If you love it, then start lower! All star counts will be consistent if a certain difficulty level is completed perfectly, no matter if that was the first round someone played or the 20th.
I know NG is not a fan of rewarding "free stars" (though I disagree with calling it that, especially because double rounds with round passes is exactly that anyway), so here's a few more suggestions I have to further lessen the grind:
-Make round passes optional: I know NG also hates this, but this allows some players to not use any passes or just some of them in order to play more levels -Make earning round passes exponential: After a certain number of rounds played in the challenge, start rewarding round passes after 2 rounds instead of 3
I'm glad you're testing these changes over a period of weeks instead of with just one challenge. It gives more realistic results and doesn't screw with round passes. However, this current challenge with a bruiser event is an endless one if you know how to play it correctly. None of the maps require you to kill anything, so with the free stun charges you can just high-tail it to the finish line with 3 bruisers. Scores will be insane this week. I've already seen pictures of players getting to RSL 40 without losing any stars. This will surely screw with the changes happening next week.
Now I want to address some of the common concerns that players frequently state in opposition to lessening the grind
-"The game only caters to end gamers!" - The current challenge structure as it stands only caters to lower and mid level players, so that assumption by itself is a disingenuous and ill-informed one. As others have pointed out, I'd wager that the elite end gamers account for a majority of NML revenue, which means they're deserving of a little something in return.
-"My star counts will be lower!" - Star counts across the board, from the lowest level player to the most elite one, will be lower. This kind of change affects all players, so it's also not a very valid complaint.
-"TG rewards need to be adjusted!" - This is a valid complaint. NG, every time you've adjusted the challenge structure, you've screwed us out of TG. You've eliminated some of the grind, but the TG amounts need to be adjusted evenly.
-"I'm going to lose out on post mission rewards because I'll finish the challenge earlier!" - Think about it, NG is not changing the amount of time you personally have in the week, nor are they changing the amount of gas you have in the game. You can still receive the same amount of post-mission rewards by playing other game modes once you reach your challenge limit. You can even play some outpost to make up for lost TG too!
-"I'm going to miss out on XP from farming the lower level challenge missions!" - Again, the amount of gas you have is still the same, so you're free to XP farm other game modes to make up for this.
-"Adjusting the star counts make the leaderboards even more unbalanced!" - 100% agree. Keep the legacy total star boards as is, but add a weekly challenge leaderboard showing the top players each week. NG is really missing out not having a weekly board like that.
So once again, the best way to please ALL players is with @Bill_ZRT's structure. It lessens the grind for end gamers while still alowing low and mid level players to play as many rounds as they want.
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Interesting idea @Bill_ZRT I could live with that. I might be missing something though.
Why would a player start at the minimum available rsl for after mission crates alone?
Wouldn't one find higher rewards in scavenge missions than low lvl challenge missions?
Also if you are able to advance to the maximum possible start level & get all previous possible stars and rewards, wouldn't many low/mid lvl players just be able to do nothing in challenges and claim rewards?
Again, maybe I have misunderstood something but it's an interesting suggestion.
Some great ideas being put forward here. One that I've thought of is making round passes available in the shop, purchasable with either gold or tg in 5 or 10 bundles.
Why would a player start at the minimum available rsl for after mission crates alone?
Wouldn't one find higher rewards in scavenge missions than low lvl challenge missions?
I agree that I would personally rather spend my gas on scavange missions for better rewards, but time and time again I hear some players say they don’t want to lose or miss out on rewards. I have also heard players say that they like lower level missions as it lets them plan out strategies for the higher RSLs. This addresses both of those concerns.
Also if you are able to advance to the maximum possible start level & get all previous possible stars and rewards, wouldn't many low/mid lvl players just be able to do nothing in challenges and claim rewards?
Again, maybe I have misunderstood something but it's an interesting suggestion.
This is why I would have the maximum starting RSL based on the max level achieved. In my example I suggested that maybe this would be your last RSL - 5. So if a low/mid level player made it to RSL 20 last week, the max they could start at this week would be RSL 15. If they did nothing beyond that this week, next week their max starting RSL would be 10 and so on. If this isn’t enough of a deterrent, there could be a rule in place that you can only ‘skip’ as many levels as you complete. So with the example I just used above, if a player made it to RSL 20 last week, the max they could start at this week would be RSL 15. If they did nothing beyond that this week, next week their max starting RSL would be the minimum starting RSL because they didn’t actually play any levels. I think this makes the situation a bit more complicated than it has to be and would try it to implement without this and see how it goes.
Everyone’s got two wolves inside them. One is anger, envy, pride. The other…truth, kindness. Every day they tear each other apart. But it’s not the better wolf that wins. It’s the one you feed.
i will gladly start at rsl 1 each week i enjoy the game, breaks up boredom of work, give me the option.....
next week starting rsl is going to suck with crazy scores/round passes.
@Bill_ZRT Some tweaks to your suggestions 1) Remove round passes; they will no longer be needed with this new method. 2) You start at any level you want with no limit based on number of rounds you completed the week before. 3) Only when you get 18 stars on the level you start at do you receive all stars for the levels you skipped. If you cannot get 18 stars on the level you chose then you made a bad choice and you only get the stars you earned for that level. In other words don't start at level 32 if you can't get 18 stars at level 32. 4) Once you get all 18 stars for your start level and earn stars for previous levels you didn't run you get all rewards associated with those stars plus the stars contribute to the guild total. So if everyone in the guild starts at a high level it will be raining rewards on the first day once everyone gets their 18 stars for the level.
You miss out on after mission crate rewards but you don't spend gas for the missions; in my way of thinking this is a break even. Note, I am end gamer who occasionally spends money on boosters. I can currently complete level 31.2 with six starts and lots of healing.
I am not a fan of giving people unearned stars but it is my experience that if you can get through a level with all 18 stars you can most likely get through all the previous levels with 18 stars too.
@Kaz This method should reduce the grind for end gamers and those who can reach high levels since they can start where the challenge gets interesting. It should also require limited developer time since the only thing changed is allowing the user to pick their starting level and then accumulating stars once they get 18 on the current level. Eliminating round passes will also require developer time but could simplify the overall challenge code.
@Bill_ZRT Some tweaks to your suggestions 1) Remove round passes; they will no longer be needed with this new method. 2) You start at any level you want with no limit based on number of rounds you completed the week before. 3) Only when you get 18 stars on the level you start at do you receive all stars for the levels you skipped. If you cannot get 18 stars on the level you chose then you made a bad choice and you only get the stars you earned for that level. In other words don't start at level 32 if you can't get 18 stars at level 32. 4) Once you get all 18 stars for your start level and earn stars for previous levels you didn't run you get all rewards associated with those stars plus the stars contribute to the guild total. So if everyone in the guild starts at a high level it will be raining rewards on the first day once everyone gets their 18 stars for the level.
1) Yes, in this model round passes go away. The ability to choose your starting round and get the stars for the skipped rounds replaces round passes. 2) I like enforcing a minimum and maximum starting level because NG has repeatedly voiced that getting rewards for free isn't something they are willing to do. This ensures that a player must play each week if they want to start at the same RSL as last week. 3) I don't mind this at all. You could certainly impose a minimum number of rounds/maps to play in order to claim the stars for the rounds that were skipped.
Everyone’s got two wolves inside them. One is anger, envy, pride. The other…truth, kindness. Every day they tear each other apart. But it’s not the better wolf that wins. It’s the one you feed.
anything being done with starting rsl for next week? some of us will have 25 or more round passes, dont want to start at rsl 40. just food for thought
If only someone proposed a solution that would allow you to choose your own starting level...
Wait a minute!!!
Everyone’s got two wolves inside them. One is anger, envy, pride. The other…truth, kindness. Every day they tear each other apart. But it’s not the better wolf that wins. It’s the one you feed.
Don't change anything, just stop changing rules every few weeks Get a better reward-balance And introduce new contents, chapters now and then (More than 170 episodes to choose from)
Due to the many Round Passes players are getting this week (because of the Challenge Set + Class Events) we are postponing removing one of the changes for next week.
So on November 21st, the only change we are going to have during the challenges is going to be: - More Gas in the Trade Goods Shop after every restock.
After next I'll again ask your opinion about the change and propose something new with you guys. It's a pretty small change, but my goal is exactly that, trying small tweaks little by little until we find a better setup.
I understand that this proposal is definitely not the definitive solution, but it's something we can try right now to ease the grind a bit before Guild Wars arrive. After implementing Guild Wars and polishing it after it gets released, we can rediscuss different solutions for the challenges like the ones you'be been presenting here.
Amazing news and another good move by NG! Once again listening to the players! my suggestion to the round pass issue was to do something like fight it out with charged assaults next week but this is much better.
Comments
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you go to a very nice restaurant and you pay a fix price and have 2 options:
1 until you get to the best meat you are forced to eat the ones you dont want too ( challenge we have)
2 you can choose where to start and reject the ones you dont like (challenge some of us want)
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I am 100% in favor of shortening the challenge, especially with Guild Wars starting soon. However, you will NOT get a good response from anyone, end-gamers or mid-level players, because of the timing of the changes.
Please reconsider shortening next week's challenge. Implement one of your other solutions OR run a standard challenge where people can't get as far. There's nothing worse than the feeling of wasting a lot of accumulated RPs.
This has happened for every test of the UC: it runs after a no body shots event, or it runs after a challenge with exploding walkers. People get too many round passes, they skip too many levels, and they hate the UC when I think in reality it could be a really good thing.
PLEASE don't set yourself up for failure again this time.
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I also believe that this solution is the one that will make the most people happy. @TransmuteJun has more time than me and she wants all the rewards possible? Problem solved. For me, if my TIME is more important than end of mission rewards? That problem is solved too.
The Suggestion: Essentially, a player chooses their starting level, with certain limitations. When a player starts a challenge, their 'recommended' starting level is presented to them. For the sake of this discussion, lets say that the suggested starting level is the level they achieved last challenge -10. So if I made it to round 32 last challenge, the default/recommended starting level would be 22. I could override that all the way down to the minimum starting level for any player all the way up to a maximum (for the sake of this discussion, let's say that the maximum is the level achieved last challenge - 5 or 27 in this case). Let me be the first to say that these minimums/maximums aren't written in stone at all... some thought would have to be given here, but the values presented are a good starting point for a discussion.
When a player chooses a starting level, they earn stars from all prior levels as if they had completed each challenge round perfectly. A player who plays from the minimum level all the way up to level 27 earns the same exact number of stars as someone who starts at level 27 (although the person starting at the lower level earns all the post mission crates).
One of the major advantages to this model is that I can plan accordingly based on my schedule as it changes. The week of Thanksgiving is approaching and I host and so won't have much time? I want to start that challenge at the maximum level I can start at. A few weeks later, I took the week off for Christmas, so I choose to start at a much lower level because I have the time.
The User Interface when staring a challenge with be similar to the round pass popup box. Instead of clicking on that 'Accept' button (or whatever that button is labeled) a player sees their default starting level and they can simply hit accept like they do today if they want to take the system generated recommendation. If they want to change it, they can... then hit the Accept button. Easy peasy lemon squeezy.
This solution eliminates:
- Star loss (players getting to a certain RSL earn the exact same number of stars regardless of how they got there)
- Players worrying about upgrading leading to a higher starting RSL for challenges
- Future dev resources to address 'the grind'
This solution allows:- Players with less time to start at a higher RSL. They sacrifice end of mission reward crates to do this.
- Players with more time or who want more rewards can start at a lower level.
- A meaningful change with minimal development resources
Ok, NML forum community, go ahead... tear it apart.But it’s not the better wolf that wins. It’s the one you feed.
Contact [email protected] or send @Bill_ZRT a message to join DTP today!
Really, anything but this roller coaster going back and forth. Be careful, don’t get many round passes, or watch people pass you by that normally finish well behind you, all because you start at a higher level...and oh by the way, that means fewer rewards for you and your Guild.
Hopefully something constructive can come from this, that will be middle ground for end gamers and beginners alike.
My favorite answer to this problem is exactly what @Bill_ZRT suggested. It makes it a level playing field for all players. If you hate the grind, start higher! If you love it, then start lower! All star counts will be consistent if a certain difficulty level is completed perfectly, no matter if that was the first round someone played or the 20th.
I know NG is not a fan of rewarding "free stars" (though I disagree with calling it that, especially because double rounds with round passes is exactly that anyway), so here's a few more suggestions I have to further lessen the grind:
-Make round passes optional: I know NG also hates this, but this allows some players to not use any passes or just some of them in order to play more levels
-Make earning round passes exponential: After a certain number of rounds played in the challenge, start rewarding round passes after 2 rounds instead of 3
I'm glad you're testing these changes over a period of weeks instead of with just one challenge. It gives more realistic results and doesn't screw with round passes. However, this current challenge with a bruiser event is an endless one if you know how to play it correctly. None of the maps require you to kill anything, so with the free stun charges you can just high-tail it to the finish line with 3 bruisers. Scores will be insane this week. I've already seen pictures of players getting to RSL 40 without losing any stars. This will surely screw with the changes happening next week.
Now I want to address some of the common concerns that players frequently state in opposition to lessening the grind
-"The game only caters to end gamers!" - The current challenge structure as it stands only caters to lower and mid level players, so that assumption by itself is a disingenuous and ill-informed one. As others have pointed out, I'd wager that the elite end gamers account for a majority of NML revenue, which means they're deserving of a little something in return.
-"My star counts will be lower!" - Star counts across the board, from the lowest level player to the most elite one, will be lower. This kind of change affects all players, so it's also not a very valid complaint.
-"TG rewards need to be adjusted!" - This is a valid complaint. NG, every time you've adjusted the challenge structure, you've screwed us out of TG. You've eliminated some of the grind, but the TG amounts need to be adjusted evenly.
-"I'm going to lose out on post mission rewards because I'll finish the challenge earlier!" - Think about it, NG is not changing the amount of time you personally have in the week, nor are they changing the amount of gas you have in the game. You can still receive the same amount of post-mission rewards by playing other game modes once you reach your challenge limit. You can even play some outpost to make up for lost TG too!
-"I'm going to miss out on XP from farming the lower level challenge missions!" - Again, the amount of gas you have is still the same, so you're free to XP farm other game modes to make up for this.
-"Adjusting the star counts make the leaderboards even more unbalanced!" - 100% agree. Keep the legacy total star boards as is, but add a weekly challenge leaderboard showing the top players each week. NG is really missing out not having a weekly board like that.
So once again, the best way to please ALL players is with @Bill_ZRT's structure. It lessens the grind for end gamers while still alowing low and mid level players to play as many rounds as they want.
And I kinda love ya @Bill_ZRT. When do we start this shit?
...So let it be done.
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Join ZOMBREX! We have a tiered guild structure so players of every level and ambition can find a home they fit in.
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Why would a player start at the minimum available rsl for after mission crates alone?
Wouldn't one find higher rewards in scavenge missions than low lvl challenge missions?
Also if you are able to advance to the maximum possible start level & get all previous possible stars and rewards, wouldn't many low/mid lvl players just be able to do nothing in challenges and claim rewards?
Again, maybe I have misunderstood something but it's an interesting suggestion.
But it’s not the better wolf that wins. It’s the one you feed.
Contact [email protected] or send @Bill_ZRT a message to join DTP today!
I will hold tongue and provide feedback as tests are run, I simply wish to remind you of a gentleman's famous words:
Vir prudens non contra ventum mingit
Concordia
next week starting rsl is going to suck with crazy scores/round passes.
1) Remove round passes; they will no longer be needed with this new method.
2) You start at any level you want with no limit based on number of rounds you completed the week before.
3) Only when you get 18 stars on the level you start at do you receive all stars for the levels you skipped. If you cannot get 18 stars on the level you chose then you made a bad choice and you only get the stars you earned for that level. In other words don't start at level 32 if you can't get 18 stars at level 32.
4) Once you get all 18 stars for your start level and earn stars for previous levels you didn't run you get all rewards associated with those stars plus the stars contribute to the guild total. So if everyone in the guild starts at a high level it will be raining rewards on the first day once everyone gets their 18 stars for the level.
You miss out on after mission crate rewards but you don't spend gas for the missions; in my way of thinking this is a break even. Note, I am end gamer who occasionally spends money on boosters. I can currently complete level 31.2 with six starts and lots of healing.
I am not a fan of giving people unearned stars but it is my experience that if you can get through a level with all 18 stars you can most likely get through all the previous levels with 18 stars too.
@Kaz
This method should reduce the grind for end gamers and those who can reach high levels since they can start where the challenge gets interesting. It should also require limited developer time since the only thing changed is allowing the user to pick their starting level and then accumulating stars once they get 18 on the current level. Eliminating round passes will also require developer time but could simplify the overall challenge code.
1) Yes, in this model round passes go away. The ability to choose your starting round and get the stars for the skipped rounds replaces round passes.
2) I like enforcing a minimum and maximum starting level because NG has repeatedly voiced that getting rewards for free isn't something they are willing to do. This ensures that a player must play each week if they want to start at the same RSL as last week.
3) I don't mind this at all. You could certainly impose a minimum number of rounds/maps to play in order to claim the stars for the rounds that were skipped.
But it’s not the better wolf that wins. It’s the one you feed.
Contact [email protected] or send @Bill_ZRT a message to join DTP today!
Wait a minute!!!
But it’s not the better wolf that wins. It’s the one you feed.
Contact [email protected] or send @Bill_ZRT a message to join DTP today!
Get a better reward-balance
And introduce new contents, chapters now and then (More than 170 episodes to choose from)
Due to the many Round Passes players are getting this week (because of the Challenge Set + Class Events) we are postponing removing one of the changes for next week.
So on November 21st, the only change we are going to have during the challenges is going to be:
- More Gas in the Trade Goods Shop after every restock.
After next I'll again ask your opinion about the change and propose something new with you guys. It's a pretty small change, but my goal is exactly that, trying small tweaks little by little until we find a better setup.
I understand that this proposal is definitely not the definitive solution, but it's something we can try right now to ease the grind a bit before Guild Wars arrive. After implementing Guild Wars and polishing it after it gets released, we can rediscuss different solutions for the challenges like the ones you'be been presenting here.
Thanks for all the feedback so far!
As usual, you are a voice of sanity!
Really good suggestions in this thread regarding the “grind”
Are NG looking at anything like these?
You rock bud! Now I can limber up the mace and bow staff!