In Game Math and Theory Crafting Complications



  • iSkyiiSkyi Member Posts: 21
    @Burmeliinis I can definitely see what I can dig up on that topic. I admit, I have not been able to give as much of my attention towards it as I would have wanted since it isn't something I can implement into anything I'm working on until I've got the foundation math built in first. You're definitely right about the obstacles, however. I don't expect data collection will be the way to figure that problem out.

    @javajnkie You may be surprised by just how useful it is for you to take the time to say that : )

    @jimmorrison369 Sorry to keep you waiting, but it was for a good reason. I found more information. I figured I should break it down and understand it before I shared.
  • iSkyiiSkyi Member Posts: 21
    Well everyone... I can't believe I'm saying this but I think I've found (almost) everything. At this point, I know the facts are right in front of my face. I just have to get the structure down correctly.
  • aquilaaquila Member Posts: 250
    edited July 11
    I've noticed a pattern. I doubt it will help but:
    With every level increase, walker health and weapon damage and maybe all other numbers too, i couldn't check yet) are multiplied by ~1.19

    Level 29 normal walker has 5921, while 30 has 7040(1.189*5921) etc.

    A new information at least for me :)
  • FirekidFirekid Member Posts: 1,712
    Amazing, however the bit about crit hits on stunned enemies is wrong. It works that way when enemies hit us when we are stunned but not vis versa. If that was the case then after our bruisers stunned the walker the first time we would stun every time after that but we don’t.
  • aquilaaquila Member Posts: 250
    I'm very surprised about lucky being a multiplier for CC, instead of directly added.
    NG staff(Shteevie?) had declared that it is added.
  • jimmorrison369jimmorrison369 Member Posts: 1,922
    Firekid said:

    Amazing, however the bit about crit hits on stunned enemies is wrong. It works that way when enemies hit us when we are stunned but not vis versa. If that was the case then after our bruisers stunned the walker the first time we would stun every time after that but we don’t.

    That's only because of body-shots.
    There is 100% critical chance, but body-shot prevents the critical hit.
  • FirekidFirekid Member Posts: 1,712
    Oh interesting, thanks Jim! I’ve always been a bit peeved that walkers get yet another advantage via that. Don’t suppose you know if that’s the case for us with hazard suit too! I don’t think I’ve ever seen one of my survivors receive a bodyshot whilst stunned?
  • iSkyiiSkyi Member Posts: 21
    @aquila Exactly! I'm also very confused by it all. The information I used is guaranteed to be in the game, but it's hard to say if its conditional. This raises questions for me.
  • iSkyiiSkyi Member Posts: 21
    @Firekid as for hazard suit... hmm... hey I think you just made me realize how that works. It's on a flag system, so it should he trackable. Haz suit is incorporated directly during the boolean calculation for body shot, though... so it would surprise me.
  • iSkyiiSkyi Member Posts: 21
    Also, quick fun fact, I'm actually relatively new to the game. I've been playing for several months, but the game has been out for much longer. I mention this bc I have a question: Can anyone think of an ability, perhaps a special weapon, maybe something walkers could do, anything... where the effect would be to forcefully move something from its position? Has this ever existed in the game? Almost like a knock-back mechanic maybe?
  • jimmorrison369jimmorrison369 Member Posts: 1,922
    No knock-back stuff
  • iSkyiiSkyi Member Posts: 21
    Eh.. fair enough.. I'm gonna take a break. It is starting to hurt my head. Body shot chances look like they take the max value b/w the one provided via level diff and the base values for the various classes (prior to reduction/increases to the chance from other modifiers). This makes a lot of sense when compared to my data since Assaults seem to have ~10x the chance to body shot (no pen, ASL diff <=2) than hunters, yet once ASL Diff >= 2, their chances to body shot become the same. Just throwing another piece of the puzzle out there.
  • aquilaaquila Member Posts: 250

    @iSkyi , Fluxx verified that luck doesn't directly add to cc but works as a multiplier as you said before. Thanks for revealing this.
  • rchaprchap Member Posts: 81
    @iSkyi -

    I just stumbled on this thread. Never knew what I was doing had a cool name like Theory Casting. I been playing three years and did a lot of testing of mechanics and values early on. @jimmorrison369 and others that no longer play were very helpful. I created a calculator in Excel for combat values and tested it extensively, to where I felt confident about the values I was getting. Sounds like you are already there. If you are getting values that don't make sense, it could be from a flaw in NG programming. Unfortunately, we can't dismiss that and maybe it is a reason for the lack of transparency.
  • aquilaaquila Member Posts: 250
    @rchap , can i see the calculator you've created? I have some doubts about the formulas i'm currently using. Tested older calculations may help me.
  • rchaprchap Member Posts: 81

    Here it is. The one caveat is that the Hero base value modifiers are not correct. Well, they are for my heroes, but the calculation is a bit more complex. I figured it out, but didn't have time to update the modifier for each hero. It's hard to explain the calculation, but easy enough to show.

    Also, I didn't account for class bonus or star hero in these formulas.
  • intendointendo Member Posts: 6
    I have a Calculator for tracking badges. You can run a Perl script on the badges.csv data to find the "best" types of badges for a survivor. So for Stabby Rick, I look for the 3 best Damage and 3 best Critical Damage that fill all 6 slots and are the same shape. The biggest problem is maintaining a list of almost 700 badges. Deleting one from the game is painful because you have to delete it from the spreadsheet. Same thing for adding. I like the Damage and Health calculator. It would be great to have some calculations to figure out which traits could be replaced if you have the right badges. For instance if Damage Reduction is over 80%, can you remove Iron Skin from Morgan? Trying a re-roll on a hunch seems like a huge risk.
  • iSkyiiSkyi Member Posts: 21
    edited August 9
    @aquila You are so freaking nice for taking the time to bring this back to my attention. You just made my night!!! I was super stressed over making that claim. I thought for sure I was just failing at my work (and I literally spent ~4-5 days of doing nothing but working all of that out without breaks). This is amazing to have confirmed.

    ...but it unfortunately provides further evidence to something I've been suspecting for quite some time. I hate to speak ill of those I know so little about, especially on their own forum, but I have serious suspicions about what is going on surrounding this game's development.

    The replies I read from the forum post you linked fit too well with my suspicions.

    I don't believe anyone who serves as a human interface b/w the game's community and the developer's has anymore access to vital in-game information than we do besides permission to dig through the code to try and figure it out. This may seem like a pointless accusation by me, but there is a really important reason I bring it up.

    Nearly 100% of numerical data is incorporated server side or in an encrypted localvalues.dat file in the root of the game's APK (I haven't checked for one, but that is common for mobile games). The point is that it isn't in the code/libraries. The questions that were addressed and given an answer to were available in the code... but the questions that were denied answers are not (I know this to be a fact).

    I don't think its a refusal to give an answer. They don't know the answer.

    @rchap Hey thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts! I'm really glad to know you are into theory crafting as well! As for the confusing results, I should clarify: It wasn't that the math wasn't working properly... it was that the 'guarantees' that I'd uncovered were contradictory to explanations provided by staff in the past. It made me really hesitant to try and bring it all together because the information felt very askew.

    Also, would you like the various star considerations incorporated into your calculator? I bet we could easily integrate my set-up into yours if I still have it and you can just make it a part of it!

    @intendo Hey! Crazy coincidence that you brought those specific points up... because it just so happens that...

    1) I'm literally in the middle of making an application for automating the recording of all *badges (its actually for a different game but the concept would be identical).

    2) I actually already have a few programs I've written for managing badges... for example: Given available badges (you can choose what counts as available if you'd like), how many unique sets of 4 badges from a set can you get out of that total? AKA: Maximizes the number of people w/ set bonuses, that is all.

    3) With Defensive Stance Active: DMG Reduction = (1 - ((1 - (IronSkin/100 + BadgeDR/100))(1 - Defensive Stance/100))) * 100
    Note how when any of the 3 variables are 0 they are mitigated without any issue, its important to remember that the max is = 80... so...

    1 - (1 - (IS + BDR)) * (1 - DS) = 80
    In your specific use case, you mention investigating whether the removal of Iron Skin would be too punishing, so set it to 0:
    1 - (1 - BDR) * (1 - DS) = 80
    Now if you have a known Defensive Stance value, even if it is 0, or if you have a known badge damage reduction value, you can calculate at what value of the remaining stat is the 80% Threshold crossed.
  • iSkyiiSkyi Member Posts: 21
    Oh wow I can't believe I didn't bring this up. I've paused my work on that huge project I was working on for TWD because it has become clear to me that certain required values are not accessible. I have to use statistics to determine them. While I have built a program to take logs of frequencies from my in game experience (without breaking any TOS, I promise).. I am only one player, and the required sample size was too large to be feasible.

    With that said, I dooo still have a database of every single possible trait combination in the game. It is one heck of a database I built over the course of weeks and it was intended to be the ultimate stage of my big optimizer program (you can imagine my disappointment). If you guys do want it to work with it, I don't mind handing it your way, but keep in mind there'd be 198 files of data and a lot of work to be done before you could create metric outputs for them.
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