Remove the all armoured spawn from nightmare mode

WellyLuga

Whilst I am a fairly frequent spender on the whole it is rare I push to these crazy levels. The further along you get the more the balance shifts from skill in favour of luck and at a certain point it becomes 10% skill/90% luck and that's where I lose interest. This week was the final of the Wild Cup so I was motivated and had a reasonable gold supply so I pushed my team to the limit. Most challenges there is a map that becomes impassable but when all of the maps are KAZ, crazy spawns can't stop you. I got 5093* and that wasn't my limit, my gold supply was the limiting factor.


Virtually impassable right?


Wrong. The worst possible spawn for this map has 4 tanks to the right, another spawning to the left on turn 2 and then another a few turns later. But with enough luck/gold/retries you can get all armoured, doable... you say you don't want the challenge to be endless yet there are things like this in the game. The other 5 maps were all the same, impossible with extra tanks but if you got enough armoured it was basically endless depending on your gold supply. Add a progressive increase rather than this RNG bullshit so that eventually you can't roll the dice and get a lucky spawn. At some point this should become a fixed spawn @Fluxxx

Fluxxx

I've actually talked about exactly this with some players recently, but a counter argument was brought up that it makes Nightmare mode (unnecessarily) too difficult. Just to get some more context from the community, what's the general opinion on nightmare mode around here?  

Keennuts

I do like the idea of a harder difficulty but some of the maps are impossible or just rely so much on luck and spending so much gold.  Would it be better to have levels higher than 50?  Keep the same spawns etc but the levels will be increased?

Shezza10

Not that I reach nightmare mode very often but personally I think there should be a stopper of some kind. The Bar Challenge we had a few weeks back was an example of this, it levels the playing field and becomes a case of having to maximise your collection of stars each round to be top of the leaderboard.
This week’s KAZ challenge felt a lot like you could go a lot further with a nice collection of tools and gold - it shouldn’t be like that.

WellyLuga

Fluxxx said:

I've actually talked about exactly this with some players recently, but a counter argument was brought up that it makes Nightmare mode (unnecessarily) too difficult. Just to get some more context from the community, what's the general opinion on nightmare mode around here?  

I wouldn't want nightmare mode to instantly become a tank fest, I've always said that adding heavies to a map is a lazy way to increase the map difficulty. Think BBQ, it's not tough because it's cleverly designed. It's just a small-ish map loaded with tanks. Normally it's not a problem because in each set there is almost always a map that becomes impossible even with an armoured spawn. Nightly visitors last week, good neighbours the week before for instance. I understand the current setup is from round 62 the spawn rates on counters are increase and there is a chance for an extra tank or armoured, then from round 68 it becomes like this - 4 aggro tanks/armoured. Maybe make it so that there are more levels to it until it gets to this point and have it fixed with tank spawns, I think I played 4 rounds of this ultra nightmare mode before running out of gold/time.

Burmeliinis

Fully agree with @WellyLuga, it's BS that it randomly gives you either tanks or armored. I don't play nightmare often so won't comment on which is better, but in any case you need to make it so it's not random. We had the similar issue before that on the .2 rounds you might get a random extra tank and everybody hated that.

Adding higher levels than 50 could be an idea, but it really does little to change the end game, which anyway is based on the premise that the walkers have too high health to kill normally. The strategies for 50+ are anyway one of these, and they work equally well on lvl 50 as on lvl 100:
- herd or use RGG to get some initial stuns, and run to the exit or keep herding and kill everything
- use Sasha and bruisers & assaults to stun everything
- build a stun wall and light everything on fire and wait 10 rounds

Karajoca

If it's possible to code this "nigtmare" rounds carefully and after lvl 50.2 (round 62) progressively increase difficulty for ~10 rounds until making it completely impossible and filled with tanks it would be the best.

Let's say after 50.2 make 2 rounds with armoured-only spawning
then next two with fast walkers
next two with metalheads, etc, etc. 
until finally only tanks come and that's it. Stopping point. 

Or just make challenge end or not going anymore after certain round - why not, people will still repeat missions and use gold to try to maximaze stars earlier

i understand that maybe leaving it random is good for business - people use gold to re-try until get a good spawn. But for me and many other players this randomness have opposite effect and make me stop trying 

Another positive note if people know in forward when challenge is becoming impossible, they can plan and balance better between GW and this mode. It's literally a small change that affects only people on top - but those are exactly people who play this game the most and can burnout if keep going like this. 

JayZ

Keennuts said:

I do like the idea of a harder difficulty but some of the maps are impossible or just rely so much on luck and spending so much gold.  Would it be better to have levels higher than 50?  Keep the same spawns etc but the levels will be increased?

Please don’t add levels. As someone said, the strategies don’t change after 50. 51-55 would all be the same. They’d just take a bit longer because the walkers have more health. All this would do is extend the grind; not distinguish player skill.

Nightmare mode isn’t an issue 48 out of 52 weeks of the year because only a handful of people get there during non-competition weeks. We’re trying to solve a non-problem IMO...

ATLAS-Z

If extra special walkers are going to spawn , it's fine, just don't make it random

If armored spawn, fine , make armored spawn always for everyone

If tanks spawn, fine, make tanks spawn always for everyone. 

Is the randomness that's the problem

ATLAS-Z

Also @Fluxxx I think our starting level has increased by +1 do to upgrade to 28? Giving upgraded folks one less round before nightmare?

So it would make sense to start nightmare and super nightmare at 63 & 69 respectively?

Otherwise folks deciding to stay camped at level 27 would actually have an advantage?

We need this and other validations for leveling our troops and we need it soon. Right now people are realizing there is no reason to level up. 

JayZ

ATLAS-Z said:

Also @Fluxxx I think our starting level has increased by +1 do to upgrade to 28? Giving upgraded folks one less round before nightmare?

So it would make sense to start nightmare and super nightmare at 63 & 69 respectively?

Otherwise folks deciding to stay camped at level 27 would actually have an advantage?

We need this and other validations for leveling our troops and we need it soon. Right now people are realizing there is no reason to level up. 

I mean, there is some validation. Getting +5k health on your Bruisers and being able to one-shot level 50 walkers with a level 28 Scout Rick is quite nice. I thought nightmare mode starts at the same level for everyone, and that's how it should be.

Karajoca

JayZ said:

We’re trying to solve a non-problem IMO...

But man, that approach is exactly why we ended up here. "small" problem, most people don't care, let's leave it. 

And how time passes problem become bigger. I mean, is it not better to just know end is on round 70 or so, and try your best to reach it. When i see 5000 stars made by someone on Friday, i just leave the phone to rest over weekend   
Now, will this things happen only few times per year, possibly, but why, when it's very easy to stop it.

JayZ

Karajoca said:

JayZ said:

We’re trying to solve a non-problem IMO...

But man, that approach is exactly why we ended up here. "small" problem, most people don't care, let's leave it. 

And how time passes problem become bigger. I mean, is it not better to just know end is on round 70 or so, and try your best to reach it. When i see 5000 stars made by someone on Friday, i just leave the phone to rest over weekend   
Now, will this things happen only few times per year, possibly, but why, when it's very easy to stop it.

What is your solution? Add more levels? That just extends the problem. Okay, now you get 10 more levels of grind from 51-55 (counting the .1 and .2 rounds). More gold drain to find the perfect spawn, hope for lucky movements, try to build a good stun wall, etc. And then the same nightmare problem occurs anyways...

I advocated heavily for BBQ instead of Road Runner for this week's challenge. BBQ would have made this challenge reasonable. But no, everyone wanted the easy map and look where it got us.

EDIT: BTW, I am in favor of a fix that has some more predictable effects like what was described above. 2 armors, 1 tank in nightmare mode. 2 tanks, 1 armor in super nightmare mode. 3 tanks after that. Spikes after that. Remove the randomness.

ThanosOfTitan

There should be a block at some point where you cannot move on it should not be random though 
like the others said if there are armoured guys let it be like that all the time and fatties etc.

the game should be skill based not gold spend based as well though. 

Mario_Romero

I do support adding a couple of levels to the challenge, two or possibly three.

Why? because it does make it easier still when you can kill the highest level normal walker with one power strike hit from Rick, HD or Jesus (with Rick in lead). This wouldnt be possible anymore if max level was 52/53.

This should be done without increasing the grind however. I think it would be easiest achieved by increasing challenge starting level to 20 or 21 from survivor level 25-26.

Of course people will still get to 52/53 but it will make it a bit harder.

Then from + max levels on you could increase difficulty by adding different walkers each round, maybe starting with fast walkers and ending with spikes. That would really put an end to the challenge.

Another thing to consider is to remove the weekly "starts charged" bonuses. Not a very popular suggestion probably but i feel it would contribute to making challenges end at some point.

Why not try it for a few weeks and see how it goes?

WellyLuga

JayZ said:

Keennuts said:

I do like the idea of a harder difficulty but some of the maps are impossible or just rely so much on luck and spending so much gold.  Would it be better to have levels higher than 50?  Keep the same spawns etc but the levels will be increased?

Please don’t add levels. As someone said, the strategies don’t change after 50. 51-55 would all be the same. They’d just take a bit longer because the walkers have more health. All this would do is extend the grind; not distinguish player skill.

Nightmare mode isn’t an issue 48 out of 52 weeks of the year because only a handful of people get there during non-competition weeks. We’re trying to solve a non-problem IMO...

I get what you're saying about 48/52 but I just find it ridiculous that you can get such polarising spawns based on luck and it's just an unpleasant side of the interactive slot machine argument. It was only heightened this week as they were all possible with an armoured spawn but it still applies on many other weeks where nightmare mode is reached but it isn't necessarily endless. I just think it should be more fixed, whether it goes up a few levels, whether it is always 2 tanks and 2 armoured, I don't know. But when these challenges roll around it just reminds me that it is a bit of a broken system.

ATLAS-Z

The idea of adding spikey to ultra nightmare has me wanting to reach for some popcorn... 

  

ATLAS-Z

Also you should listen to @JayZ and not me cuz I rarely push up that high

@Fluxxx

Maybe start a poll with these options

#1) please add more level before nightmare mode begins (round 62)

#2) please don't add more missions before nightmare (round 62), it's too much grind 

#3) i can't /don't usually reach nightmare mode (@ round 62)

Karajoca

I actually suggested progressive nightmare mode @JayZ, when you finish level 50 they should start adding more and more special walkers ( like now) just to be less random and to know that in round 63 you get extra spawns of armoured, then on 65 spawns of something else, until you finally get 100% tanks,goo,spikes which is surely - the end.
I think this doesn't add any more rounds then we currently have just want to remove ridiculous randomness like we can see on Wes 1st post. Enter mission over and over until you avoid tanks... very wrong designed and only frustrates people. 

JayZ

Karajoca said:

I actually suggested progressive nightmare mode @JayZ, when you finish level 50 they should start adding more and more special walkers ( like now) just to be less random and to know that in round 63 you get extra spawns of armoured, then on 65 spawns of something else, until you finally get 100% tanks,goo,spikes which is surely - the end.
I think this doesn't add any more rounds then we currently have just want to remove ridiculous randomness like we can see on Wes 1st post. Enter mission over and over until you avoid tanks... very wrong designed and only frustrates people. 

100% agreed. I just don’t want to grind up to 55 😂

Firekid

I was one who wanted road runner instead of BBQ and I’m still glad I did. It was a nice relief after 4 gruelling tough maps. Just because then 1% of  could throw 10000 gold at this challenge doesn’t mean that the rest off the 99% of players had to be penalised. Ask the majority of players and Herschel’s farm and backyard arena were enough to stop them without BBQ being thrown in. 
I do however agree that the randomness of nightmare mode needs to be removed. There should be a point where only tanks spawn where that is I’m not sure if it is round 68 then so be it. 
However if there is a definitive stopping point then something needs to be done about round pass star boosts. As otherwise the leaderboard will be based on who did better the week before rather than who did best this week. 

WellyLuga

Firekid said:

I was one who wanted road runner instead of BBQ and I’m still glad I did. It was a nice relief after 4 gruelling tough maps. Just because then 1% of  could throw 10000 gold at this challenge doesn’t mean that the rest off the 99% of players had to be penalised. Ask the majority of players and Herschel’s farm and backyard arena were enough to stop them without BBQ being thrown in. 
I do however agree that the randomness of nightmare mode needs to be removed. There should be a point where only tanks spawn where that is I’m not sure if it is round 68 then so be it. 
However if there is a definitive stopping point then something needs to be done about round pass star boosts. As otherwise the leaderboard will be based on who did better the week before rather than who did best this week. 

Absolutely agreed, I cannot stand BBQ. If more of the tanks were unaware then it wouldn't be so bad but sometimes you can stand at the start and overwatch and find yourself mobbed by tanks, others they kindly wander over 1 at a time. It's pretty much a slog fest of a map hoping enough razor triggers and the walkers behave until you can get the map down to 2-3. I'd have saved myself 10k gold but it's a challenge ruining map for me.

I think there should be some advantage with round passes though, maybe it could be tweeked down a little but I believe if one player pushes further one week they should be rewarded in some way. I got an epic scout armour with garbage traits for reaching 4k*... at least the extra round passes give me an advantage the next week. Maybe not this week as I have 29 of them so doubles until RSL50

Firekid

Ouch! Be interesting too see how the community maps play out! 

WellyLuga

Firekid said:

Ouch! Be interesting too see how the community maps play out! 

Koolo has 35 which will take him deep into nightmare

Busta

@WellyLuga , i was very disappointed that rewards stop at 4k and it was a crappy reward to begin with. So i agree with you something should change with RP. I have said this before i believe there should be a banking system with RP. Nothing worse than getting all those and you can't even reach the end of your doubles before you are dropping stars. Same for the person that end up with a RL issue or vacation and can't use them all. We should be able to bank and use however many we want per week.

As for the randomness it sucks and its a complete gold suck/slot machine and it shouldn't be.
If you are going to end the walker levels at 50 then i agree take the randomness out and start with automatic spawns at 63 with armored , 65 something else , 67 something else... leading to a pretty much end game.

However my counter to that is , if your going to add levels say up to rd 63 ( listen the spawns already happen with higher level walkers with increased health anyways) then as a counter maxed level toons shouldn't stop at 10*  make them so they can continue to go up in levels... no i DO NOT HAVE ANY FULLY MAXED OR EVEN CLOSE TO IT WES!!! LOL 

I do feel every map set should have a good balance of hard and easy maps, its for us to be like ok if i can get past this map i can do the next 2 with ease and gain another RP but knowing that at some point a map is not passible because you know what is exactly the spawn coming is an important thing in this game that needs to happen.