PumpkinStar Push acting wierd

FuriousMoldovanFuriousMoldovan Member Posts: 1,406
So problem is that new PumpkinSpice MS acting wierd when hitting 2 walkers in a line against an object (wall, etc):

It's supposed to stun both even when 1 of them is killed. But instead it pushes the walker closer to survivor and doesn't stun it, if walker closer to wall is killed. Happened on several occasions in The Breach, had to Flee @Lexia

From screenshot:
this lvl 45 walker was next to Jesus and the second walker was right behind him. Hit killed the second walker and pushed this lvl 45 1 space back.


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  • FuriousMoldovanFuriousMoldovan Member Posts: 1,406
    edited November 8
    That's not how MS (or Pumpkin Star) is supposed to work.
    It should not push the first walker if second is killed (when 2 are lined up against an obstacle). @Lexia

    This looks like a bug to me ↓


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  • PP1990PP1990 Member Posts: 63
    I think if you kill the walker behind the one that is getting pushed, the one on the front doesn’t get stunned because he doesn’t have an obstacle behind anymore.
  • FuriousMoldovanFuriousMoldovan Member Posts: 1,406
    @PP1990
    That's not how MS works in my experience. Both of them are hit simultaneously, so neither should be pushed, even if one of them dies.
    See the difference ↓

    Regular MS:

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  • ghost_pepperghost_pepper Member Posts: 844
    The 2nd walker in the top screenshot had low health and was hit by a non-razor MS shot? Even if the 2nd walker dies, the first is supposed to be stunned and not supposed to be moved from knock back.

    I wonder if they moved the order of the coding around because someone did a sloppy job of copy and paste? 

    @Lexia he's right and this is not correct for a MS without razor, which he clearly shows us the purpose of the purchase made and the play with the item. We talk a lot about the advantage of a MS without razor leveled on discord.

    An MS without razor has to perform as expected to do stuff like this


  • LexiaLexia Community Manager Posts: 234
    Hello,

    My apologies for the very late reply on this one. The topic was discussed quite a bit with the team.

    On the matter of these two weapons, Morning Star and the Pumpkin Spikes - they are both working correctly. Why it might in certain situations be different, is due to the order of the damage getting applied to multiple enemies. It is currently not pre-determined, so either the “first hit” happens to the main target or to another secondary target. Depending on which one takes the first hit and the ones after that, the push-mechanic and possible stun takes place accordingly.
    RohlikzauchemFuriousMoldovanghost_pepperShezza10Carl_Tyreese999
  • FuriousMoldovanFuriousMoldovan Member Posts: 1,406
    edited November 18
    @Lexia I have to disagree.
    Both targets (or more if in range) should be hit simultaneously.
    According to weapon description, main target in always non-bodyshot and is stunned if pushed against an obstacle.
    In this case it's clearly pushed against another walker and both should be stunned, regardless of whether one of them is killed. Because if the first one that's closer is killed, the second walker is still stunned, correct? Should be the same when vice versa.

    Even if it has Razor upgraded and razor kicks in on the second walker closer to obstacle, it still should be stunned if not killed, since second walker is being pushed against another obstacle. We call it triple stun or deep stun when 3 walkers are lined up in a straight line (3rd gif in my previous post).

    We can discuss it more in-depth but I can't recall this type of random MS behavior. And it definitely needs to be fixed. Otherwise it kills the purpose of this weapon and makes its description misleading as well.
    We pay money for it and expect precision.
    Thank you.
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  • ghost_pepperghost_pepper Member Posts: 844
    I'm really glad to hear you and the team have been discussing this. Thank you for placing this topic on your discussion agenda. Unfortunately, this conclusion is 100% wrong. Perhaps your wording was twisted up? 

    The target of the MS hit always happens first which then knocks that main target into the target behind if it's still there. That walker behind will be there 100% of the time if 5 levels above and no razor trait is present because then a bodyshot is guaranteed on the walker behind. The targeted walker stuns because it hits an object (the bodyshot walker behind). The bodyshot walker stuns because it is struck by a knockback walker (the targeted walker). This is 100% guaranteed.

    In this video, firekid narrates how a MS without razor leveled works. Please note the date. This is how MS has worked since then for me. I just used a MS without razor in this week's challenge map Bloody Barn 20 minutes ago. The advantage of having a guaranteed 100% stun pattern is one of the few reasons to play mele against walkers 20+ levels higher than you.


    We know what we're talking about. The stun pattern in my screenshot above. This video.

    It's drama like this that makes me not want to buy a rediculously cool looking pumpkin skin. If you make a giant candy cane MS, I'm not gonna buy it because there will probably be some bug with it so it doesn't work the way it's supposed to.
    Shezza10Rohlikzauchem
  • Shezza10Shezza10 Member Posts: 40
    @Lexia I won’t put this as eloquently as @FuriousMoldovan or @ghost_pepper did, but I’m afraid the conclusions from your discussions are simply wrong. Either none of you have used the Morning Star before or you haven’t played the game at all. I’d suggest you look again!
    Rohlikzauchem
  • echonapechonap Member Posts: 66
    I’m curious why you would not upgrade razor on the MS. What advantage does that have, besides getting charge points w Sasha in the lead?
  • FuriousMoldovanFuriousMoldovan Member Posts: 1,406
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  • BurmeliinisBurmeliinis Member Posts: 1,012
    Lexia said:
    Hello,

    My apologies for the very late reply on this one. The topic was discussed quite a bit with the team.

    On the matter of these two weapons, Morning Star and the Pumpkin Spikes - they are both working correctly. Why it might in certain situations be different, is due to the order of the damage getting applied to multiple enemies. It is currently not pre-determined, so either the “first hit” happens to the main target or to another secondary target. Depending on which one takes the first hit and the ones after that, the push-mechanic and possible stun takes place accordingly.
    While this might make sense from a coding point of view, the issue here is that the Pumpkin works differently from the Morning Start - and as the Pumpkin is marketed as a MS with a different skin, they both should work in the same way. That seems to not be the case, and therefore is a bug, which warrants fixing. 
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  • ATLAS-ZATLAS-Z Member Posts: 5,329
    Do we want a Morningstar in the shop without razor?

    If so, what goes there? Lucky?

    @FuriousMoldovan
    @ghost_pepper
    @brucewayne007


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  • echonapechonap Member Posts: 66
    Is this theory or does it actually work? Does someone have an unupgraded MS? Not the pumpkin one since it’s clearly behaving differently.

    sorry for derailing thread
  • FuriousMoldovanFuriousMoldovan Member Posts: 1,406
    echonap said:
    Is this theory or does it actually work? Does someone have an unupgraded MS? Not the pumpkin one since it’s clearly behaving differently.

    sorry for derailing thread

    That's how it actually works.
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  • FuriousMoldovanFuriousMoldovan Member Posts: 1,406
    ATLAS-Z said:
    Do we want a Morningstar in the shop without razor?

    If so, what goes there? Lucky?

    @FuriousMoldovan
    @ghost_pepper
    @brucewayne007
    More Lucky is always good! :)

    MS with silver Tactical, golden Destructive/Lucky would be great.

    Silver Tactical, golden Destructive/TR should be very practical 👍
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  • ghost_pepperghost_pepper Member Posts: 844
    What he said.

    More lucky helps charging with herding or with Michonne getting more extra hits. And that gets interesting with Michonne and perserverance, charging like a beast and getting extra strikes which then charges her again like a beast.

    You'd think this would be a mele money maker, right?

    I wouldn't buy it though. There will be some bug and it won't work as advertised. And then NG won't understand it or fix it. Like now. There always is some bug. 
    Shezza10
  • ghost_pepperghost_pepper Member Posts: 844
    echonap said:
    Is this theory or does it actually work? Does someone have an unupgraded MS? Not the pumpkin one since it’s clearly behaving differently.

    sorry for derailing thread
    The thread speaks for itself. This is not theory.

    Watch firekids video. He explains it.

    Look at the screenshot I posted from the challenge the other week. There's no way anyone can play mele at that level without absolute control over stuns and damage and movement. My MS -razor stuns the walkers 2 deep. My scout spears them for damage to speed up the process. My shooter cripples the new incoming walker interrupting it and then the warrior whallops it. Doesn't work with unstunables (tanks, spikes good) but then that's a fair trade off since we recently learned Hazard Suit doesn't either....
  • brucewayne007brucewayne007 Member Posts: 643
    ATLAS-Z said:
    Do we want a Morningstar in the shop without razor?

    If so, what goes there? Lucky?

    @FuriousMoldovan
    @ghost_pepper
    @brucewayne007
    Yea I think it would be great. NG has many opportunities with some of these weapons. Hopefully they get it right. 
    I do like the fact they have implemented a Threat Reduction weapon in the GW shop. 
    It’s a start. 
    But weapons with Razor they have to get it right. This is definitely an option with the morning star. And Lucky would be cool. 
    But off the top of my head I can’t think of any other weapons it could work without Razor. 
    FuriousMoldovan
  • ghost_pepperghost_pepper Member Posts: 844
    If they made a new item similar to  kingdom shield work like a morning star, with guaranteed knockback and then optional no razor, then we could have the same double stun guarantee from bruisers. The only issue is the meta.

    Bruisers have unique and usable LTs and fit into the new meta with perserverance remarkably well in a variety of forms/teams where as warriors have herding and morning star and perserverance only puts emphasis on those two. Warriors still have turdzekiel and jerry, whose only use at higher levels remains cycling for a better spawn while holding a 2nd morning star. (The Jesus screenshot of me on Supply Run a few weeks ago above in the thread is the exception to this rule.) 

    Basically, it seems kind of pointless to make a new item bruisers can guarantee stun with and then take away that monopoly from warriors. This makes warriors useful. Don't make warriors less useful. They're already bottom of the barrel.
  • LexiaLexia Community Manager Posts: 234
    Thank you for keeping the discussion going. I've forwarded the additional details earlier to the team for further investigation and I'll aim to share more info as soon as I can :smile:
    Firekidghost_pepperShezza10FuriousMoldovan
  • ghost_pepperghost_pepper Member Posts: 844
    Ty for the update! Much appreciated! We will remain patient. 

    I seriously wonder if this was a copy/paste issue and one little bracket wasn't included. Some tiny little difference which has become noticed. 
  • ATLAS-ZATLAS-Z Member Posts: 5,329
    Meanwhile... 





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  • FuriousMoldovanFuriousMoldovan Member Posts: 1,406
    ↑ as long as NG makes MS performance consistent first (fixed bugs described above).
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  • ShadowWalkerShadowWalker Member Posts: 922
    ATLAS-Z said:
    Meanwhile... 



    How about one with Concussion?
  • ATLAS-ZATLAS-Z Member Posts: 5,329
    ATLAS-Z said:
    Meanwhile... 



    How about one with Concussion?

    That wouldn't work because it's not actually the Morningstar that is causing the stun it is the push


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  • ghost_pepperghost_pepper Member Posts: 844
    The more I think about flaming morning star, the more I think they need a new item trait. They can start with it infused and then eventually introduce it to the item pool.

    Fireproof

    All fire damage recieved is reduced to zero. When targeted by an attacking enemy with fire, you cannot catch on fire.

    There is huge precedent in the tv show for this. They used fire axes. There were even fireproof jackets worn. And if this trait is infused on the hand item, you don't need it on the body item. If it's on the body item, you don't need it on the hand item. 

    Having something with fireproof on it in the gw shop each season would really help the gw shop suck a whole lot less. Everyone laughed about it on Line and discord when we saw it the other week. There is more apathy now specific to not caring about wins or losses because everyone in the top several hundred guilds can see very clearly they'll buy everything they want without effort. At some point that has to be addressed and this will help to address that, at least in part.
  • ShadowWalkerShadowWalker Member Posts: 922
    ATLAS-Z said:
    ATLAS-Z said:
    Meanwhile... 



    How about one with Concussion?

    That wouldn't work because it's not actually the Morningstar that is causing the stun it is the push
    Hmm... It works with Kingdom Shield though...


    The Bulldoze Shotgun wasn't working though, I was only getting one turn of stun.

  • ATLAS-ZATLAS-Z Member Posts: 5,329
    ATLAS-Z said:
    ATLAS-Z said:
    Meanwhile... 



    How about one with Concussion?

    That wouldn't work because it's not actually the Morningstar that is causing the stun it is the push
    Hmm... It works with Kingdom Shield though...


    The Bulldoze Shotgun wasn't working though, I was only getting one turn of stun.


    Yeah I don't think that is working as intended, you may have inadvertently aired something they will fix AKA Nerf


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  • ghost_pepperghost_pepper Member Posts: 844
    Don't you need razor unleveled with shield?
  • ShadowWalkerShadowWalker Member Posts: 922
    @ATLAS-Z or hear me out, maybe they should just make Concussion work with Push. We can already stun every damn thing for 2 turns guaranteed with SMY. 

    Don't you need razor unleveled with shield?

    No. The shield doesn't have a guaranteed non body shot, so it needs Razor in order to push. 

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