A proposal to make challenge competitive interesting again

13

Comments

  • MuirnaMuirna Member Posts: 181
    Anjelos said:
    Muirna said:
    I think you guys need to be honest with us and yourselves that this doesn't have to do with being bored. It has to do with ego and needing something to whine about. When I proposed a simple solution for those of you tying every week on the leaderboard -- to start competing in your own league with a standardized set of rules to make it harder for all of you and screenrecordings to prove compliance -- there have been exactly 0 sign ups. Yet, this could be implemented immediately and with zero additional bugs. You would all know who ranked and scored where and could be tortured playing with a team of Merle, hunter Morgan, hunter Maggie to your hearts content, for example, without forcing it on the rest of us. But, sob, then you wouldn't be as high on the leaderboard and would miss out on a few rewards you don't even need.
    Actually we already did that as intra for many weeks and is quite exciting .had a channel firecheese casino making bets on it every week .And surely it would be more fun with more people .
    Yes , it is freaky boring having 40heroes and only need to use 2+sh.
    Some people actually like to compete and find ways for maps that are hard .:) It is how the game was for 4 years and the reason it growed as much ....the fact that missions was like small riddles .
    People also liked wild cup a lot ,people also liked national wars and many other small competition that makes a game exciting .

    Sports and games usually have a target in case you never notice , they don't say thank you for participation you are all winners 🏆.
    That happens only in kindergartens , and if I judge from your following silly comment, that is how far your brain can go to troll on a proposal to make the ge a little be like it used to .
    Be sure , if there wasn't line and discord app and people didn't bond that much after so many years , game would be probably dead , cause yes it is hell boring at the moment . 

    What is the reason no one is interested then in banding together to implement an idea like this without NG permanently and marketing it as open to anyone who wants to participate? I played in Wild Cup. It is a lot of fun. It is competitive. It had weird requirements to earn points that made things more difficult. And things like that don't rely on waiting on NG to see if they will ever implement it.

    I will make my own thread about my Hardcore permadeath mode idea.
  • BloodyChainsawBloodyChainsaw Member Posts: 396

    😆🤪🤐
    BenjaminTRohlikzauchemRiotZappa
  • BloodyChainsawBloodyChainsaw Member Posts: 396
    Adeline said:
    Am I the only one who doesn't feel bored so far? LOL
    I downloaded this game on the 2nd day after it launched - thanks to NG for answering my question, now my signature can be completed :)
    And have never stopped playing or took a break.

    The only thing that made me feel bored and feel like quitting was to even try playing an alternate account. So you have to ask yourself if you are playing a second account that makes you have to do everything twice.

    I do have a life too, I have work, household chores to do, and to settle my child to sleep before I can even start playing the challenge every Wednesday. So it doesn't feel right if the leaderboard is based on who finished the fastest like what ATLAS has mentioned.
    🙄🙄🙄
  • AdelineAdeline Member Posts: 87
    I don't know what's that supposed to mean by posting this LS screenshot.

    I made that score out of my spare time in between taking care of my family, work and other matters. I also sacrificed a bit of sleep. Since it's just my personal achievement which I am happy about, I never go around posting it. What's the problem now?
    # Playing since 11 October 2015 #
    YouTube Channel: http://www.youtube.com/channel/UCgKutvR0DOUBKYx13GWm88w
    < Co-Managing Deadly Alliance - We Strive for Perfection >
  • AdelineAdeline Member Posts: 87
    Anjelos said:
    Adeline said:
    Am I the only one who doesn't feel bored so far? LOL
    I downloaded this game on the 2nd day after it launched - thanks to NG for answering my question, now my signature can be completed :)
    And have never stopped playing or took a break.

    The only thing that made me feel bored and feel like quitting was to even try playing an alternate account. So you have to ask yourself if you are playing a second account that makes you have to do everything twice.

    I do have a life too, I have work, household chores to do, and to settle my child to sleep before I can even start playing the challenge every Wednesday. So it doesn't feel right if the leaderboard is based on who finished the fastest like what ATLAS has mentioned.
    Sweet Adeline , you know how polite I am usually - so I will answer the following without stating the obvious reasons of why and how - yes probably you are one of the very few :))))


    Thank you handsome Anjelos :)
    I have never said that your idea is not good, it's really nice to see new suggestions. No matter what the future brings, or what NG is going to implement, I will still continue to enjoy my game as per normal.
    # Playing since 11 October 2015 #
    YouTube Channel: http://www.youtube.com/channel/UCgKutvR0DOUBKYx13GWm88w
    < Co-Managing Deadly Alliance - We Strive for Perfection >
  • MondlichtMondlicht Member Posts: 6
    To all elite players out there who want to prove that they're better than the rest, we have a saying in my country : "Eat a big bite but don’t say a big statement". I guess it's similar to the english one : "Don't bite off more than you can chew".
    Cause you never know 🙂🙂🙂

    As for the boredom of the challenge, I do hope that NG is a business and won't sabotage their own game for the sake of a handful players.

    I do understand though their need to stand out, so maybe the solution can be simplier than adding 40 more rounds!

    There can be two Challenge modes - Normal challenge and Expert one, yes.
    But, same missions, same star hero, same gas cost, same level difficulty, same rewards, same bugs 😅 , one final 81 round can honorably be added in Expert though and max stars can reach up to 5432.
    However, in Expert Challenge you just can't use the "apples of discord" team combinations (SHPY, SHMY, SPY, SMY). No other hero restrictions apart this.
    Also a player can only play one of the modes each week. Not both
    It doesn't even have to be two different leaderboards, one is enough.

    So maybe this way, bored players can find an interest again trying to see who is the best of the best and let us, commoners, enjoy our game! 
    Muirna
  • MondlichtMondlicht Member Posts: 6
    With all the respect Firekid (By the way I'm a big fan of your style of playing and I thank you for your tips and videos!), but speaking for myself, I don't find my post "a bit stupid"!!

    There is a LOT of whining all across the forum for "everyone using Mercer, Yumico, Princess and Sasha". There are post suggestions to exclude them from Guild wars, from Challenge, from everywhere ... isn't that so?
    An Expert Challenge where the expert player can use a SPY, SMY, PMY etc combination will not solve any boredom problems nor will bring out the best of the best players! It will just end a SHMY team again!
    This thread is NOT "simply asking NG to make a change to what was their flagship game mode" like you said.
    This thread is VERY specific to what is asking from NG : "Only use a specific pool of heroes and non-heroes characters", is what Anjelos proposed.
    My comment was based on this suggestion. Instead of making it SO hard and use a specific pool of heroes, the expert player can use every hero but not a specific combination of them. Simple as that.
    This way no hero is really excluded and those who have spent real money to upgrade Mercer for example, will can still use him, just not together with Yumico 🙂
    If you still find my comment a "bit stupid" it's ok. Would love though to hear specific suggestions from you on how an Expert mode Challenge could run.
    Muirna
  • MuirnaMuirna Member Posts: 181
    Firekid said:
    As long as the change they make has no effect on players who play casually, enjoy how it is or are still striving to go perfect all the time then I can’t see the harm. 
    Out of all the suggests so far I feel that an expert mode that runs alongside regular challenge would work best, it would need a separate leaderboard though. 
    I agree with all of this, and this is what I think some of us have been reacting to about what has been overlooked in all the recent threads asking for the ban, nerfing, or removal of this that or the other hero, or the forced restrictions on all suggestions, or demands for more or unlimited rounds when there are already too many rounds of the same missions over and over anyway and what we need is a faster path to Nightmare, not more rounds. I think there needs to be an alternate Challenge mode.

    I'd actually be interested in your feedback on my post about Level Playing Field -- an idea for a hardcore Challenge mode as well.
  • MuirnaMuirna Member Posts: 181
    edited August 17
    @Anjelos I also want to apologize in that I did start to confuse this thread you made with all the others I've been reading recently and lost sight of the fact that you were proposing an alternative mode, versus all the ones that want to impose restrictive changes or bans on all players and that have been coming off as elitist and entitled. I'm sorry that I came off as rude. I have felt frustrated that the players I mentor, who are just starting to learn SPY and were feeling really excited by a personal best they had just made in the Challenge, or players I know who just finished all the rounds of the Challenge for the first or second time, but not with a perfect score, who were feeling proud of that accomplishment, then read all the posts in the ban Mercer thread with people moaning about how bored they are, how everything is so easy, how it takes no skill or strategy -- and they felt crushed. The title of this thread has also made players I know feel some type of way, which is how I think I lost track of the content in it.
    Anjelos
  • TroublemakerTroublemaker Member Posts: 1,471
    Damn! Everything is so peaceful.

    Should I come out of retirement?

    👀
    RohlikzauchemRiotZappaShadowWalkerFuriousMoldovan
  • FirekidFirekid Member Posts: 3,213
    @Mondlicht yours wasn’t the post I was referring to! Yours is a great idea and if that was implemented I would be love it. 
    It’s the “no one is forcing you to use mercer yumiko/ if you find it to easy just don’t use them” brigade who tend to miss the point of what people are asking for when it comes to making the challenge more challenging/interesting. As you know I do this most of the time anyway but it usually takes me more gold and time (ok I enjoy it more but that’s the not the point.) for the same rewards/score. 
    An expert mode that runs side by side with challenge with a separate leaderboard helps everyone and punishes no one. 
    MondlichtRiotZappaStalker20
  • MondlichtMondlicht Member Posts: 6
    Thanks for taking the time to clear this up @Firekid .
    I'm not a new player, neither a weak one,  but I'm not playing this game on a SUPER competitive way. I'm just enjoying it and compete with myself and only. It's my hobby and my everyday "dope" 🤣 so I don't feel the need to make it extremely difficult just for the sake of a leaderboard. Real life itself is hard enough, I just wanna fun. And I'm sure the majority of players are feeling the same.
    So as long as any future changes are done like you said : "As long as the change they make has no effect on players who play casually, enjoy how it is or are still striving to go perfect all the time then I can’t see the harm." it will be ok!
    But let's say, a x35 the expert Challenge rewards though (like they did in Last Stand) would be disastrous!!
    That's why I think we all should be very careful in what we're asking from NG. One wrong decision from them and the game will👎
    That's just my personal opinion of course 🙂

    RiotZappaMuirna
  • VirtusVirtus Member Posts: 56
    Why not eliminate mission replays? That will certainly reduce some perfect scores, knowing missions can't be replayed if you lose or get one or two stars. You could also make it Distance style, where injuries or deaths carryover to the next mission and stay that way until the Challenge is ended. I would imagine these changes wouldn't be hard to implement by NG, and would actually put the "challenge" back in the Challenge mode. Some would probably not risk a master mission and instead take the long way playing each regular mission, so the time commitment might also knock a few others from the perfect ranks.
    Implement these changes and then reasses whether more radical ones are needed.
    Anjelos
  • BenjaminTBenjaminT Member Posts: 428
    Virtus said:
    Why not eliminate mission replays? That will certainly reduce some perfect scores, knowing missions can't be replayed if you lose or get one or two stars. You could also make it Distance style, where injuries or deaths carryover to the next mission and stay that way until the Challenge is ended. I would imagine these changes wouldn't be hard to implement by NG, and would actually put the "challenge" back in the Challenge mode. Some would probably not risk a master mission and instead take the long way playing each regular mission, so the time commitment might also knock a few others from the perfect ranks.
    Implement these changes and then reasses whether more radical ones are needed.
    This post makes me feel very anxious  :#
    ShadowWalkerRohlikzauchemAnjelosMuirna
  • BurmeliinisBurmeliinis Member Posts: 1,195
    edited August 18
    Virtus said:
    Why not eliminate mission replays? That will certainly reduce some perfect scores, knowing missions can't be replayed if you lose or get one or two stars. You could also make it Distance style, where injuries or deaths carryover to the next mission and stay that way until the Challenge is ended. I would imagine these changes wouldn't be hard to implement by NG, and would actually put the "challenge" back in the Challenge mode. Some would probably not risk a master mission and instead take the long way playing each regular mission, so the time commitment might also knock a few others from the perfect ranks.
    Implement these changes and then reasses whether more radical ones are needed.
    Your idea is similar to @zbot's, and it would definitely result in less ties on the leaderboard.

    BUT

    We already have 3 game modes where retries are not allowed: Distance, Last Stand and Guild Wars (yes, you can retry but in each of them it either can cost you the victory or it costs a LOT of gold). Challenge is the only game mode which allows retries, so getting rid of that is really eliminating one of its main features. 

    Also, since we already know that hundreds of players can score max points, it would mean that if you are going for a top leaderboard position (which I think a lot of people will), it would mean that instead of actually playing, you would spend your time at looking at Youtube videos to get ideas and tips about best team setups, best weapons, best tactics etc etc. Now it's ok to use team you think might work, and if it doesn't or you forgot to equip the right weapons and tools, you just try again. I'm totally sure we would have an endless stream of rants from angry players, that lost their chance of a good ranking because they forgot to change weapons or supports between missions.

    I still think the Level Playing Field as suggested by @Muirna . That would really keep the spirit of the challenge best alive, would not interfere with the players that don't want anything changed, and introduce a really hard but fair playing mode for all of us that feel that the game has become too easy.


    Ingame username: Jubjab
    RiotZappaMuirna
  • AnjelosAnjelos Member Posts: 69
    Muirna said:
    @Anjelos I also want to apologize in that I did start to confuse this thread you made with all the others I've been reading recently and lost sight of the fact that you were proposing an alternative mode, versus all the ones that want to impose restrictive changes or bans on all players and that have been coming off as elitist and entitled. I'm sorry that I came off as rude. I have felt frustrated that the players I mentor, who are just starting to learn SPY and were feeling really excited by a personal best they had just made in the Challenge, or players I know who just finished all the rounds of the Challenge for the first or second time, but not with a perfect score, who were feeling proud of that accomplishment, then read all the posts in the ban Mercer thread with people moaning about how bored they are, how everything is so easy, how it takes no skill or strategy -- and they felt crushed. The title of this thread has also made players I know feel some type of way, which is how I think I lost track of the content in it.
    No worries .
    And no , no matter how I dislike smy/spy cause I feel they ruined the game, my proposal had no intention of make them obsolete.
    Mainly cause there is no way people accept something like that , they will get mad and I understand it tottaly .
    But somehow we need a change to something more competitive I think , without ruining the fun for all
    Muirna
  • AnjelosAnjelos Member Posts: 69
    Virtus said:
    Why not eliminate mission replays? That will certainly reduce some perfect scores, knowing missions can't be replayed if you lose or get one or two stars. You could also make it Distance style, where injuries or deaths carryover to the next mission and stay that way until the Challenge is ended. I would imagine these changes wouldn't be hard to implement by NG, and would actually put the "challenge" back in the Challenge mode. Some would probably not risk a master mission and instead take the long way playing each regular mission, so the time commitment might also knock a few others from the perfect ranks.
    Implement these changes and then reasses whether more radical ones are needed.
    Fails + retrying = learning . 
    How did the top players learn the game and mechanics ? By failing 4638836663838 times .
    FuriousMoldovan
  • AnjelosAnjelos Member Posts: 69
    zbot said:
    A simpler fix would be, if a player gets perfect stars (including Star Hero), it opens up one more round, and this keeps repeating, until the player can't get perfect stars.  So technically there is a cap of 80 rounds but for those that are die hards get additional round(s).  That way the change is only for those that finish the challenge perfectly.  (I had the idea when I was bowling)
    I will argue that as long as to have a good mercer , know how to play and maybe have some tools , there will be no stop on that even if you spawn elite spikes every turn 😂
    ADPaq
  • ATLAS-ZATLAS-Z Member Posts: 6,601
    Anjelos said:
    zbot said:
    A simpler fix would be, if a player gets perfect stars (including Star Hero), it opens up one more round, and this keeps repeating, until the player can't get perfect stars.  So technically there is a cap of 80 rounds but for those that are die hards get additional round(s).  That way the change is only for those that finish the challenge perfectly.  (I had the idea when I was bowling)
    I will argue that as long as to have a good mercer , know how to play and maybe have some tools , there will be no stop on that even if you spawn elite spikes every turn 😂

    Probably not if star hero is still required? That would get pretty hard pretty quick.


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    Anjelos
  • VirtusVirtus Member Posts: 56
    Virtus said:
    Why not eliminate mission replays? That will certainly reduce some perfect scores, knowing missions can't be replayed if you lose or get one or two stars. You could also make it Distance style, where injuries or deaths carryover to the next mission and stay that way until the Challenge is ended. I would imagine these changes wouldn't be hard to implement by NG, and would actually put the "challenge" back in the Challenge mode. Some would probably not risk a master mission and instead take the long way playing each regular mission, so the time commitment might also knock a few others from the perfect ranks.
    Implement these changes and then reasses whether more radical ones are needed.
    This post makes me feel very anxious  :#
    Perfect.  Then that means the idea puts the "challenge" back into the Challenge. No one should feel like the Challenge game mode is a gimme.

    Anjelos
  • VirtusVirtus Member Posts: 56
    Virtus said:
    Why not eliminate mission replays? That will certainly reduce some perfect scores, knowing missions can't be replayed if you lose or get one or two stars. You could also make it Distance style, where injuries or deaths carryover to the next mission and stay that way until the Challenge is ended. I would imagine these changes wouldn't be hard to implement by NG, and would actually put the "challenge" back in the Challenge mode. Some would probably not risk a master mission and instead take the long way playing each regular mission, so the time commitment might also knock a few others from the perfect ranks.
    Implement these changes and then reasses whether more radical ones are needed.
    Your idea is similar to @zbot's, and it would definitely result in less ties on the leaderboard.

    BUT

    We already have 3 game modes where retries are not allowed: Distance, Last Stand and Guild Wars (yes, you can retry but in each of them it either can cost you the victory or it costs a LOT of gold). Challenge is the only game mode which allows retries, so getting rid of that is really eliminating one of its main features. 

    Also, since we already know that hundreds of players can score max points, it would mean that if you are going for a top leaderboard position (which I think a lot of people will), it would mean that instead of actually playing, you would spend your time at looking at Youtube videos to get ideas and tips about best team setups, best weapons, best tactics etc etc. Now it's ok to use team you think might work, and if it doesn't or you forgot to equip the right weapons and tools, you just try again. I'm totally sure we would have an endless stream of rants from angry players, that lost their chance of a good ranking because they forgot to change weapons or supports between missions.

    I still think the Level Playing Field as suggested by @Muirna . That would really keep the spirit of the challenge best alive, would not interfere with the players that don't want anything changed, and introduce a really hard but fair playing mode for all of us that feel that the game has become too easy.



    I went back and read @zbots post.  Hat Tip.
    Scavenge allows retries. Outpost isn't a retry, but you can play again right away.  Your argument here is unpersuasive and doesn't make sense logically.  In fact, logically, you could argue that Challenge mode allowing replays is the outlier and should be changed to disallow replays.
    Many people already watch videos for tips on the challenge.  Look at all the You Tubers and their subscribers (small plug for @Firekid, who has the best vids imo).  So, the changes I suggested won't change the reliance on videos.  Maybe it gives them more subscribers!  Plus, it takes time to do that, so already, that lengthens the challenge.  And if you forgot to change weapons or take the wrong team (we've all done it), so what?  This is a Challenge, not a layup!  You should be penalized for such carelessness and inattentiveness.  For example, if I take the wrong team and weapons in Guild Wars...too bad.  I have to make it work or I cost my guild.  Is it a sign of the times that we wish to disassociate actions and consequences?  We should reward players that don't make careless mistakes and who do pay attention to detail.  Am I wrong, or is that unfair?  If players know upfront that retries are not possible, they can direct anger for failure at themselves.  They'll get over it if everyone plays by the same rules.
    I'm not familiar with Level Playing field suggestion, but will read up on it.  My point with my post was to propose the easiest changes that NG could make to toughen the challenge, reduce ties, and limit new bugs.  You can't have it both ways - Challenge is no harder for you, but knocks down everyone else.  Doesn't work that way.  If you are an elite player (and I think you are), my suggestions shouldn't scare you.

  • VirtusVirtus Member Posts: 56
    Anjelos said:
    Virtus said:
    Why not eliminate mission replays? That will certainly reduce some perfect scores, knowing missions can't be replayed if you lose or get one or two stars. You could also make it Distance style, where injuries or deaths carryover to the next mission and stay that way until the Challenge is ended. I would imagine these changes wouldn't be hard to implement by NG, and would actually put the "challenge" back in the Challenge mode. Some would probably not risk a master mission and instead take the long way playing each regular mission, so the time commitment might also knock a few others from the perfect ranks.
    Implement these changes and then reasses whether more radical ones are needed.
    Fails + retrying = learning . 
    How did the top players learn the game and mechanics ? By failing 4638836663838 times .
    They can learn and apply that knowledge to the next week's Challenge.  Yes, maps may be different, but as frequently as NG recycles Challenge maps, the same maps will probably show up in the next 6 weeks.  Anyway, they will mostly be using the same heroes anyway, so they can apply their knowledge in the next week.

    Anyway, isn't Scavenge where you test, fail and learn?  What about the other modes?  First few rounds of Distance offer a very good learning opportunity with your heroes and teams too.

  • VirtusVirtus Member Posts: 56
    Anjelos said:
    zbot said:
    A simpler fix would be, if a player gets perfect stars (including Star Hero), it opens up one more round, and this keeps repeating, until the player can't get perfect stars.  So technically there is a cap of 80 rounds but for those that are die hards get additional round(s).  That way the change is only for those that finish the challenge perfectly.  (I had the idea when I was bowling)
    I will argue that as long as to have a good mercer , know how to play and maybe have some tools , there will be no stop on that even if you spawn elite spikes every turn 😂

    Totally agree with this.  My proposal will reduce the number of ties, but there will still be lots of ties.  That's why this would be a first step.  Then, reassess after a few Challenges and then go to more changes based on evaluation.
  • AnjelosAnjelos Member Posts: 69
    Virtus said:
    Virtus said:
    Why not eliminate mission replays? That will certainly reduce some perfect scores, knowing missions can't be replayed if you lose or get one or two stars. You could also make it Distance style, where injuries or deaths carryover to the next mission and stay that way until the Challenge is ended. I would imagine these changes wouldn't be hard to implement by NG, and would actually put the "challenge" back in the Challenge mode. Some would probably not risk a master mission and instead take the long way playing each regular mission, so the time commitment might also knock a few others from the perfect ranks.
    Implement these changes and then reasses whether more radical ones are needed.
    Your idea is similar to @zbot's, and it would definitely result in less ties on the leaderboard.

    BUT

    We already have 3 game modes where retries are not allowed: Distance, Last Stand and Guild Wars (yes, you can retry but in each of them it either can cost you the victory or it costs a LOT of gold). Challenge is the only game mode which allows retries, so getting rid of that is really eliminating one of its main features. 

    Also, since we already know that hundreds of players can score max points, it would mean that if you are going for a top leaderboard position (which I think a lot of people will), it would mean that instead of actually playing, you would spend your time at looking at Youtube videos to get ideas and tips about best team setups, best weapons, best tactics etc etc. Now it's ok to use team you think might work, and if it doesn't or you forgot to equip the right weapons and tools, you just try again. I'm totally sure we would have an endless stream of rants from angry players, that lost their chance of a good ranking because they forgot to change weapons or supports between missions.

    I still think the Level Playing Field as suggested by @Muirna . That would really keep the spirit of the challenge best alive, would not interfere with the players that don't want anything changed, and introduce a really hard but fair playing mode for all of us that feel that the game has become too easy.



    I went back and read @zbots post.  Hat Tip.
    Scavenge allows retries. Outpost isn't a retry, but you can play again right away.  Your argument here is unpersuasive and doesn't make sense logically.  In fact, logically, you could argue that Challenge mode allowing replays is the outlier and should be changed to disallow replays.
    Many people already watch videos for tips on the challenge.  Look at all the You Tubers and their subscribers (small plug for @Firekid, who has the best vids imo).  So, the changes I suggested won't change the reliance on videos.  Maybe it gives them more subscribers!  Plus, it takes time to do that, so already, that lengthens the challenge.  And if you forgot to change weapons or take the wrong team (we've all done it), so what?  This is a Challenge, not a layup!  You should be penalized for such carelessness and inattentiveness.  For example, if I take the wrong team and weapons in Guild Wars...too bad.  I have to make it work or I cost my guild.  Is it a sign of the times that we wish to disassociate actions and consequences?  We should reward players that don't make careless mistakes and who do pay attention to detail.  Am I wrong, or is that unfair?  If players know upfront that retries are not possible, they can direct anger for failure at themselves.  They'll get over it if everyone plays by the same rules.
    I'm not familiar with Level Playing field suggestion, but will read up on it.  My point with my post was to propose the easiest changes that NG could make to toughen the challenge, reduce ties, and limit new bugs.  You can't have it both ways - Challenge is no harder for you, but knocks down everyone else.  Doesn't work that way.  If you are an elite player (and I think you are), my suggestions shouldn't scare you.

    Personally I would have zero problem with that since I hardly need to use tools or gold to finish challenge 🙂
    But I think you fail to see how this is gonna affect the majority .
    Also I think the possibility NG makes the game that hard for mid-lvl players is zero to none if you ask me . Nobody will buy gold 🪙.

  • AnjelosAnjelos Member Posts: 69
    Virtus said:
    Anjelos said:
    Virtus said:
    Why not eliminate mission replays? That will certainly reduce some perfect scores, knowing missions can't be replayed if you lose or get one or two stars. You could also make it Distance style, where injuries or deaths carryover to the next mission and stay that way until the Challenge is ended. I would imagine these changes wouldn't be hard to implement by NG, and would actually put the "challenge" back in the Challenge mode. Some would probably not risk a master mission and instead take the long way playing each regular mission, so the time commitment might also knock a few others from the perfect ranks.
    Implement these changes and then reasses whether more radical ones are needed.
    Fails + retrying = learning . 
    How did the top players learn the game and mechanics ? By failing 4638836663838 times .
    They can learn and apply that knowledge to the next week's Challenge.  Yes, maps may be different, but as frequently as NG recycles Challenge maps, the same maps will probably show up in the next 6 weeks.  Anyway, they will mostly be using the same heroes anyway, so they can apply their knowledge in the next week.

    Anyway, isn't Scavenge where you test, fail and learn?  What about the other modes?  First few rounds of Distance offer a very good learning opportunity with your heroes and teams too.

    Scavenge you just test weapons and damage ,gives you nothing on tactical game ...  
    All this videos 99% of people in this game learned the game , is made through bazillion retries over the years . 
    No , it is not the same , especially for people that is not in the "elite" as you call them . :)
  • AnjelosAnjelos Member Posts: 69
    Hey @Virtus quick question. If mission replays were eliminated, would that mean this week’s challenge is over for you as soon as you fail a mission? 

    Currently I go as far as I can manage with some of my favourite melee heroes, and I keep going like that until I’m failing more missions than I’m winning. Then I accept their (my :) ) limitations and revert to ShPY for the missions I can’t manage with HD, T-Dog, Ezekiel, etc. if I get really stuck I might do a few missions with SPY/SMY/PMY and accept it’s not a max score week for me.

    But if I knew a failed mission would end the challenge for me then I think I’d be far less willing to take any team other than SPY, etc.

    Is there a risk this kind of approach results in a far greater reliance on the handful of match winner heroes, because each mission is far too great a risk to play around around the others?
    100% 
  • AnjelosAnjelos Member Posts: 69
    Virtus said:
    Virtus said:
    Why not eliminate mission replays? That will certainly reduce some perfect scores, knowing missions can't be replayed if you lose or get one or two stars. You could also make it Distance style, where injuries or deaths carryover to the next mission and stay that way until the Challenge is ended. I would imagine these changes wouldn't be hard to implement by NG, and would actually put the "challenge" back in the Challenge mode. Some would probably not risk a master mission and instead take the long way playing each regular mission, so the time commitment might also knock a few others from the perfect ranks.
    Implement these changes and then reasses whether more radical ones are needed.
    Your idea is similar to @zbot's, and it would definitely result in less ties on the leaderboard.

    BUT

    We already have 3 game modes where retries are not allowed: Distance, Last Stand and Guild Wars (yes, you can retry but in each of them it either can cost you the victory or it costs a LOT of gold). Challenge is the only game mode which allows retries, so getting rid of that is really eliminating one of its main features. 

    Also, since we already know that hundreds of players can score max points, it would mean that if you are going for a top leaderboard position (which I think a lot of people will), it would mean that instead of actually playing, you would spend your time at looking at Youtube videos to get ideas and tips about best team setups, best weapons, best tactics etc etc. Now it's ok to use team you think might work, and if it doesn't or you forgot to equip the right weapons and tools, you just try again. I'm totally sure we would have an endless stream of rants from angry players, that lost their chance of a good ranking because they forgot to change weapons or supports between missions.

    I still think the Level Playing Field as suggested by @Muirna . That would really keep the spirit of the challenge best alive, would not interfere with the players that don't want anything changed, and introduce a really hard but fair playing mode for all of us that feel that the game has become too easy.



    I went back and read @zbots post.  Hat Tip.
    Scavenge allows retries. Outpost isn't a retry, but you can play again right away.  Your argument here is unpersuasive and doesn't make sense logically.  In fact, logically, you could argue that Challenge mode allowing replays is the outlier and should be changed to disallow replays.
    Many people already watch videos for tips on the challenge.  Look at all the You Tubers and their subscribers (small plug for @Firekid, who has the best vids imo).  So, the changes I suggested won't change the reliance on videos.  Maybe it gives them more subscribers!  Plus, it takes time to do that, so already, that lengthens the challenge.  And if you forgot to change weapons or take the wrong team (we've all done it), so what?  This is a Challenge, not a layup!  You should be penalized for such carelessness and inattentiveness.  For example, if I take the wrong team and weapons in Guild Wars...too bad.  I have to make it work or I cost my guild.  Is it a sign of the times that we wish to disassociate actions and consequences?  We should reward players that don't make careless mistakes and who do pay attention to detail.  Am I wrong, or is that unfair?  If players know upfront that retries are not possible, they can direct anger for failure at themselves.  They'll get over it if everyone plays by the same rules.
    I'm not familiar with Level Playing field suggestion, but will read up on it.  My point with my post was to propose the easiest changes that NG could make to toughen the challenge, reduce ties, and limit new bugs.  You can't have it both ways - Challenge is no harder for you, but knocks down everyone else.  Doesn't work that way.  If you are an elite player (and I think you are), my suggestions shouldn't scare you.

    What you say in prons and cons :

    Elite players  :
    Prons
    somehow something off a challenge 
    Cons : 
    Keep on playing with boring spy/smy and star hero 

    Mid level players : 
    Prons : ?
    Cons :.
    Loosing all the nice rewards since they won't finish 
    Not get better in anyway and just try to smy/spy as much 

    Low level players : 
    Prons : they can spend their time in another game 
    Cons :
    no rewards 
    No learning 
    No money no game 😂 

    NG : significant reduce of earnings 


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