Why we no longer get 25% of token upgrades back when we retire a survivor?

I have asked this question on multiple threads and havent gotten a response. Maybe it requires it's own thread.

I want to start off by saying I apologize if I come off as a "negative Nancy" recently on the threads but changes that benefit the player in 1.10 seem to be "tweaked" in fixes yet tweaks benefitting the machine (NG) seem to stay intact.

The one in taking about is tokens.

On Tuesday and most of wednesday if you used a 1 radio call and received a common survivor you could reject it for 2 tokens. But if you accepted the survivor and spent 4 tokens to upgrade it to uncommon you could retire it for 9 tokens.

What appears to have happened is since uncommon rejected for 8 tokens you would get the tokens of an uncommon level (8) when retiring PLUS an additional 25% of what you invested into upgrading them (1 of 4 tokens)

Well we wake up Friday morning and now it's 6 tokens to upgrade a common to uncommon and when I retire it I only receive 8 tokens flat.

Why was this modified? Why were we able to receive a percentage of the tokens we invested back on Tuesday and by Friday the costs were increased and we now get nothing back that we invested?

When you retire an upgraded survivor you get some portion back of the XP spent upgrading them. But why not tokens?

If I look at the overall scheme of things, you are now selling 200 radios for $50. On tuesday I could have used 200 radios to get minumum 1000 tokens using the above mentioned strategy with single radio pulls. Now, since that was changed, it makes sense to go with 15 radio pulls earning 32 minumum each I can make 13 calls at 15 each netting me minumum 416 tokens.

You reduced it by almost 59% the number of tokens attainable with your $50 bundle. It boggles my mind.

Can I please get an answer why when we retire a survivor we don't get any percentage of tokens back (which we did day 1) nor why the cost of upgrades on common were adjusted from 4 to 6 (as they were day 1)?

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  • theRealBendertheRealBender Member Posts: 1,251
    edited July 2016
    On question 2)
    I assumed it was corrected to eliminate token profiteering. I was planning to do this myself but I waited too long as they fixed it pretty quickly. It's probably due to players with good intentions posting that info to the public forums and such.

    On question 1) we should get some tokens back if we have spent them upgrading traits and promoting
    Back from 2016 :p
  • Agreed with this except I still got my xp for retired survivor. He had been maxed out and I received 500k
  • DLichDLich Member Posts: 5,541
    edited July 2016
    Common survivors have no traits. So I understand why there it's not necessary to upgrade a trait AND THEN promote like on every other rarity.

    And this was something accessible to everyone in the game. So I can't see how "someone could have felt cheated" when anyone could have did it.

    The forum should be for sharing strategies and ideas of how to help eachother, not be used as a basis for data collection for the game on how to fix things they rolled out already.

    Weapons and armor not working properly is one thing, but token collection being used as intended (NG set the levels not me) and modifying them after is unfair.

    4/16/60/120/250 were the upgrade levels originally decided by NG

    2/8/32/128/256 were the rejecting/selling tokens originally decided by NG

    I assume extensive thoughts went into rolling out this major update yet why is it when we share things on this forum it's used against us regarding strategy?

    "Someone found a way to get more than 2 tokens... Let's fix that". I don't get paid to be a dev in this game and it discourages me from wanting to share input with others on here regarding things.

    From now on if I notice something that benefits us all I'll just keep it to myself. :disappointed:

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  • tembeltembel Member Posts: 132
    from my point of wiev looking from NG's side :
    "holy F#$½ !! we need a god damn good mathematician. these players r way smarter than we expected. they r now figured out our shiNy token systems deficiency and they r stopping us to have a lot more profit from it. how the hell we r going to Finnish that saunas ceeling without their money? we have to correct it right away and start selling radio bundles to make a point we r the biggest dog in this neighbourhood, u cant stop us to take ur money from ur pockets"


    maybe not but who knows? im just a paranoid accountant who is also studying at civil engineering and day by day learning every shit (ops everything) about sales menagement and how to make something more profitable.


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  • mongo911mongo911 Member Posts: 939
    @tembel...

    Be careful... Yer gonna hurt yer self, with your intelligent logic...
    I am easily confused by other people's, laziness and sloppiness and greed...

    Any guess who might " now " be on my list, ( in 2017 )





    tembelDLich
  • tembeltembel Member Posts: 132
    dont think so. as i mentioned earlier ; they need an employee who has a good logic like a mathematician. probably my thoughts looked like cybrish to them.

    or maybe not but who knows? in the end they r a well supported company by players and maybe they already have a logical guy and he is messing with us..


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  • DLichDLich Member Posts: 5,541
    edited July 2016
    Im not a programmer of coding but it's clear the original intention of tokens was to give players some type of percentage back from the beginning.

    I saw data collectors like myself discussing their findings on the forum as well as in guild chats on line. It was clear that at any rarity people were getting some type of percentage back on investments (again thank you to everyone who spent/wasted tokens in the process of finding out how it worked)

    I just feel like going forward what's the point in researching anything? @Mark creates these awesome data input collection regarding rarity types dependent upon radio pull types; others run tallies comparing silver and gold drops on "increase" drop events; we run data regarding silver and gold chests comparison while in unlimited gas; analyze all this data for discoveries that we could be told by the devs whats what.

    How difficult would it be for someone to confirm there's a 1% chance of a legendary in a 1 radio pull or the odds of getting a gold chest on a mission is 3% or the odds of getting a hunter on a radio pull is 15%?

    Why are words like "increased" and "reduced" consistently used to describe events? Increased or reduced from what? What's the starting point so I can figure what increased actually means?

    10x more walkers at your camp means if 10 is the max then you should expect to see "10x more" not a 30 Max at any given time.

    I feel the reason why stats aren't given because people would be discouraged from spending money. If you knew the odds of getting an epic survivor or higher on a radio pull was infact less than 4% would you be so willing to buy radios?

    I thank everyone whom has shared data to the community (it's what we are... A community) but I'm hanging up my statistical analysis. All we're doing is showing NG the stats that we discovered and they already know and then they can tweak it to make it harder for us.

    #endrant

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  • Scorpio_CROScorpio_CRO Member Posts: 73
    Sorry I told you. It probably wouldn't bothered you so much if you didn't know
    @DLich
  • DLichDLich Member Posts: 5,541
    @Scorpio_CRO your discovery was an awesome find and one that helped everyone playing the game.

    I can't help but feel sometimes that were all just beta testing interns reporting our findings back to our boss.

    It's like the code read -

    If (rarity is uncommon)
    Then (sell for 8 + invested cost prior)
    If (rarity is rare)
    Then (sell for 32 + invested cost prior)

    Then people are turning a 2 token common into an uncommon 9 after spending 4 to upgrade and then code is changed to -

    If (rarity is uncommon)
    Then (sell for 8)
    If (rarity is rare)
    Then (sell for 32)

    Where'd that extra piece of code go?

    And why at the same time was upgrade costs changed on a rarity 2 days after implementation and there's no notice as to why? This update wasn't written overnight. Why was it tweaked overnight (after us interns post our findings)? Just makes me not want to post anything :disappointed:

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  • Black_JackBlack_Jack Member Posts: 278
    I guess we can't have it both ways, if the moderators use the forums to report faults which we indeed want them to fix then they will report all whether favourable to the player or not.
  • @Black_Jack don't give the mods so much credit. I've tagged them, pm'd them, everything short of calling their house. The only do what they want without any care as to how we feel. After 3 weeks of asking the same question any type of answer would be appreciated.
    One of the devs wasn't smart enough to realize that we would get more tokens than we have until it was mentioned here.
    After every bug is found by us, then they reply that they're looking into it.
    We are just beta testing and they wait for use to post the results so they can adjust accordingly
    DLichAvengers
  • lmfgunnutlmfgunnut Member Posts: 1,636
    @dlich they still give very small refund when scrapping leg/epic after upgrade.

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  • HussarHussar Member Posts: 22
    tis the way of the world, a business must make money to stay in business. not all decisions are correct at the time they are born.
    no matter what you do for a living someone above you is looking at how they can get more for less.
    This will never change because it can never change.
  • EL34xyzEL34xyz Member Posts: 1,872
    It was done to correct the exploit that @Scorpio_CRO posted about

    I did a bunch of 1 radio calls,
    then upgraded the commons for 4 tokens to uncommon,
    then retired the uncommon for 9 tokens with a gain of 5 tokens
    I made around 75 tokens the first day

    The exploit was fixed that night

    It just one more thing the so called "testers" failed to find when they were "testing"
    Scorpio_CRO[Deleted User]
  • Scorpio_CROScorpio_CRO Member Posts: 73
    @EL34xyz Should they (testers) be punished and we rewarded?
    What I'd like is class tokens after upgrading player - we used to get (unlock) new traits on leveling, they should have similar mechanics when CTs were introduced.
    Not much, but some ct for leveling up would be nice.
  • DLichDLich Member Posts: 5,541
    @EL34xyz I have been quiet on this topic this weekend because I didn't want to seem too pushy and wanted to give the mods a chance to answer this question but it seems the ultimate goal is to ignore into oblivion hoping (I guess) that this will fall onto page 2 and then page 3 and then eventually will just go away.

    What I have concluded @EL34xyz is that the token selling wan't an exploit. There was no outside use of software to manipulate anything. The players were using the code written within the game by the devs in the intention it was written. Nobody exploited anything (and because nobody has been mod editied regarding this discussion) I'm fairly certain this was not an exploit.

    What it is however was a manipulation by NG to make it harder for us players to attain tokens, and thus a change was made as to decrease the number of tokens we can earn while at the same offering expensive radio bundles.

    Overall were hard pressed to find a greater formula of 2 tokens = 1 radio.

    1 radio minimum common = 2 tokens
    5 radio minimum uncommon = 8 tokens (1.6 tokens per radio)
    15 radio minimum rare = 32 tokens (2.13 tokens per radio)

    I guess i'll just chalk it up that we'll never receive an answer on this, but we should in my opinion.

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  • EL34xyzEL34xyz Member Posts: 1,872
    It was an exploit that was discovered by the players
    Then NG saw that we were taking advantage of it and fixed it
  • DLichDLich Member Posts: 5,541
    edited July 2016
    TK-421 said:

    The following topics are strictly off limits, including in external links:
    Cheating, hacking, game exploits. Talking or discussing cheating, hacking or game exploits. Just don't do it. We will remove any and all content regarding this. Persistent offenders will be removed from the forums.

    yet here we are for the last 3 days having an open discussion about this. It would be nice for a mod to say something regarding this rather then people just giving their opinions on what they think it is.

    I'd like to also note that since it has not officially been deemed an exploit by a mod it should not be assumed to be an off limit topic discussion.

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  • theRealBendertheRealBender Member Posts: 1,251


    Don't fault the players for YOUR mistakes, NextGames...


    Taking something out of the game is some sort of punishment? Removing an unintended exploit (use the dictionary if you don't know this term) is not allowed to be fixed but other issues are? This statement fails the logic test.

    Of course players didn't break any rules by taking advantage of "bad" design - which is why no players were suspended for it. But anyone, you or anybody else, reserves the right to correct mistakes. If you were lucky enough to see it and use it - good for you. Otherwise stop acting so entitled. Besides, they would have discovered this eventually even if players didn't post it publicly. They have an idea of how long it should take players to promote and level things. So they will tweak their models accordingly. You get to make the most of what they have designed.
    Back from 2016 :p
    Avengers
  • DLichDLich Member Posts: 5,541
    If it was a mistake to give 25% bonus xp when retiring an uncommon survivor then why was there no mention of it by NG as a fix.

    To be honest this topic is being swept under the rug by NG.

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  • DLichDLich Member Posts: 5,541
    I have looked up the term exploit and tried to connect it yo this game regarding this particular situation. It was intended for us to receive 9 tokens when retiring an upgraded common to uncommon survivor. They "fixed" it so we can't by increasing the costs for common upgrades and eliminating the bonus.

    We didn't exploit anything. We did as the code intended. The code was changed with the sole purpose of making it harder to attain tokens while also offering a $50 bundle to buy 200 radios. Whose trying to exploit who?

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  • theRealBendertheRealBender Member Posts: 1,251
    Yes, I agree they are trying to leave it alone. But they don't always make special notice of fixes. Lots of things go wrong and get fixed without notice I believe.
    Back from 2016 :p
    DLich
  • DLichDLich Member Posts: 5,541
    I agree but when a big change comes about a day after it's implemented via information shared on this forum and no answer as to why only makes me not want to share any discoveries on here with anyone since "big brother" sees everything.

    There's an xp issue with survivors costing too little to upgrade. It's in the players favor and has been going on for a week now. We're told to enjoy it while it lasts.

    Why does that take forever to fix yet tokens, the newest money grab for NG, get fixed overnight?

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  • theRealBendertheRealBender Member Posts: 1,251
    edited July 2016
    Maybe because it was easy to do by comparison to some other things? I'm guessing the fix to low XP costs for leveling survivors is/was more involved. But they handled it differently. A dev came out and said it was a mistake and that it would be fixed (eventually but not right away) and enjoy it while it lasts. Maybe they should have done the same thing with the token thing
    Back from 2016 :p
    DLich
  • DLichDLich Member Posts: 5,541
    My gripe involves knowing how NG attained the information regarding fixing this "issue" but not making a post anywhere explaining the reasoning for the fix.

    Ill say it again, openly and freely, if the players were exploiting the system then this thread would have been shut down a long time ago.

    If it was an exploit that was fixed by the devs then they are saying they never meant to give people 25% bonus tokens for upgrading the rarity of a common to uncommon survivor and they meant to charge 6 tokens to upgrade a common survivor (instead of 4).

    If it's not an exploit then the rules were changed because players were benefitting following the rules put in place by NG and they wanted to focus more on people buying radios and not getting free XP (selling the weapons/armor these upgrades uncommon survivors left behind being retired)

    I am not speaking on behalf of NG in these statements only looking at it from the perspective of a player trying to figure out why this non exploit change was made so rapidly in the midst of a 200 radio for $50 bundle.

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  • DLichDLich Member Posts: 5,541
    As @BadLuckChuck had mentioned Id like to point out a time when what is now considered an exploit was once the solution to a problem.

    The following link is applicable to this forum.

    http://forums.nextgames.com/walkingdead/discussion/comment/1156#Comment_1156

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  • DCBMETDCBMET Member Posts: 392
    Just wait until they call these maxed out players sandbagging their influence a bunch of cheaters and exploiters. That'll raise popcorn sales.
  • JVC_TWDJVC_TWD Member Posts: 496
    It wasn't an exploit imo. I noticed it myself as soon as the update came out and I told my guild about it. I even called it "Hustling 101." If you're telling me I can get 9 tokens back by just spending 4 then of course I'm going to do it. I didn't write the coding. I didn't change the coding. I just outsmarted the coding. Outsmarting the system is not the same as cheating the system.

    On another note, I think they changed the 25% refund on tokens spent to 15% refund.

    It takes 6 tokens to promote a 1 star survivor to 2 stars and now we get 8 tokens back. 15% of 6 is 0.9 which of course rounds down so we get no tokens back for the 6 tokens spent

    An epic survivor gives you 128 tokens. An epic survivor with 1 upgraded trait gives you 146 tokens back. It cost 120 tokens to upgrade a trait on an epic. That's an increase of 18 tokens. 18/120 = 15%

    A legendary survivor gives you 256 tokens back. A legendary survivor with 1 upgraded trait gives you 293 tokens back. Doing basic math we get 37/250 = 14.8%. Of course we don't get half tokens so if it's not a full token it gets rounded down or the system is set to truncate to the whole number
    DLich
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