I don't think Survivors were Nerfed

OneLessTitanOneLessTitan Member Posts: 1,273
At the risk of being wildly unpopular, I actually believe NG when they say Survivors weren't nerfed with this update. I do believe that it was just a "display error" that didn't influence combat.

Here's my reasoning.

I collect a lot of data (most of you already know that I'm a nerd), but actual damage points during attacks isn't something I collect (too much info pops up after an attack, and I've been tracking other things like critical attacks/lucky activation/body shots during attacks and can't get all the info that pops up). But, I can tell you that I've been killing the same level walkers, with the same Survivors, with the same Equipment, at the same regularity as before the 2.0 update. My sample sizes aren't huge, so it's not a perfect measure, but thus far, nothing is different.

Second, I've been able to get the same amount of Guild Challenge Stars after the update as before. Before, I was getting about 57 stars per map, and that's exactly what I'm getting this week.

Third, despite a contradictory user report, all of the Health Ratings for Walkers are exactly the same as before the 2.0 update. I can only comment on Normal Walkers up to Level 26, and Tank Walkers up to Level 22. I haven't checked Tank Walker Health Ratings (EDIT: haven't checked ARMORED Walkers). But from what I've tracked, the health ratings are EXACTLY the same so far.

You may say they nerfed our Survivors an update or two ago, but I also disagree with that statement. Sure, the ratings for Survivors may have been lowered, but so were the Walkers ratings. In fact, after they lowered the ratings for Survivors and Walkers, I started to get MORE challenge stars and kill higher level Walkers with more efficiency, even before I was able to level up my Survivors to 19. Say your paycheck was decreased by 10%. In a vacuum, that sucks big time. But if the cost of everything in the world was dropped by 10% to 12%, then your pay cut doesn't mean anything, and may actually help you out if the costs of all the items are dropped by more than 10% (not a perfect analogy, I know, but you get the picture.)

I also don't think it makes sense (financially) for NG to nerf Survivors. I'm guessing the majority of players participate in Guilds. The enormous gas prices of these missions force higher level players to spend gold on gas or buy a gas booster in order to maximize their star production. Nerfing Survivors would cause players to need less gas, and thus not be spending to maximize their Stars.


All that said, I don't like a lot of the decisions NG has made recently, and have voiced my opinions on those issues. But I think this is a non issue that many people are freaking out about, with no real validity behind their claims. I could be wrong, but so far my experiences are telling me that I'm not wrong about this.

Now, for people that bought the bundle with Rick's Silenced gun, I think you should be refunded your money, and you should put a refund request with Apple or Google (it's been a couple years since I've requested a refund for an App Purchase through Apple, so I can only comment that they refunded me with no hassle in that instance). If that Trait was nerfed (or even if there was a "display error" showing the wrong Trait %), then you bought something that was nerfed (or sold something with inaccurate information), and you have every right to getting your $ back, IMO.
Pain WalkerMizTyPigeetuBuckzzIllbrainerrgerkmanPapacaslmfgunnut

Comments

  • I haven't noticed it this update but I guarantee that the last update I couldn't one shot walkers that I could before. My warrior was breaking her sword hitting walkers at lower lvl's and my bullets were as effective as paintballs
    MizTySmittY
  • Pain WalkerPain Walker Content Creator Posts: 2,601
    Even if they were nerfed if you upgrade them to 10 star then the health and damage should be a lot more

    Probably making a video!

    My Youtube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/user/MultiPainproduction
    MizTyPapacas
  • SgtSalamiSgtSalami Member Posts: 578
    @painclasher upgrade to 10 star? How long and how much will that take...
    Pain Walkerkmr
  • Pain WalkerPain Walker Content Creator Posts: 2,601
    It depends on how fast you want to jump over the huge wall... oh wait there is a way! Take out your wallet :#

    Probably making a video!

    My Youtube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/user/MultiPainproduction
    [Deleted User]kmrPapacas
  • OneLessTitanOneLessTitan Member Posts: 1,273
    bgbelden said:

    I haven't noticed it this update but I guarantee that the last update I couldn't one shot walkers that I could before. My warrior was breaking her sword hitting walkers at lower lvl's and my bullets were as effective as paintballs

    I know @Japes87 was having Warrior issues a while back and was trying to get answers, not sure if he's still experiencing the same issues. I hadn't been using Warriors very much until a week or two ago, and I've found them to be pretty efficient, but I also have some solid Warrior weapons. I can only speak from my experiences, and I haven't noticed any real differences in what I've been able to kill. I was taking out Walkers 2-3 levels above my survivors most of the time, and after this update, I'm still taking out Level 22 Walkers with my 2 LEG Level 19 Hunters (with level 21 & 20 epic weapons) with one shot most of the time, and my Level 19 LEG Assault with level 22 LEG weapon is doing the same. Again, I'm not discounting anything every one else is experiencing, but that's what I've noticed and tracked.

    I think the way to measure any potential nerfing (for guild players) is whether or not you are still achieving the same Star Counts. My Stars will vary a bit based on how effective I am with maximizing my gas, and how many Stars I lose by sticking around and micro-farming levels too long and getting injured (thus costing me more gas in the long term, and causing me to play less levels because I don't have the time or the desire to spend gold/$$ for more gas).
  • DIblisDIblis Member Posts: 718
    Unfortunately as has happened in the past with other issues, you can't assume that because you haven't experience the issue it's not occuring to other players.
    If it is occuring, then those who believe they're effected will have a hard time convincing the devs it's occuring unless they were lucky enough to have video demonstrating the difference which is highly unlikely. If one of the content creators suffers this then it could possibly be proven.
    Also keep in mind that this issue has only occured after they apparently fixed an issue with the game incorrectly displaying details so it is possible that even though things look correct they might not actually be so.
    As people knowledgeable with stats you know that a sample of 1 is no proof of anything. In this case there are quite a few people crying foul and at this stage. While that's also not proof of anything but it should be considered possible.

    I've not suffered it either to date but members of my guild who i trust say they have and i've at this stage no reason to doubt what they're saying. Do i doubt ng? Well they seem to have issues with be able to communicate and their decision making has been thrown into doubt in recent time. Eg they can use Bitch Nuts as an ability name, but i can't say BLANK? And who thought we'd ever go for all these token types? That nerfing purchased items wouldn't cause an uproar?
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  • MelaniexMelaniex Member Posts: 21
    Here is a thought, after reading the job descriptions on the next game sites, could we have already been divided into players categories as a marketing test? I do spend money on this game between buying bundle packs, gold etc etc. My survivors are noticeably not as effective as prior to the update. Walkers I could take down with one shot , machete swing etc are no more. Maps I could complete with no injury to survivors now leave me with survivors injured. I play everyday I do not consider myself a casual player. It became very evident to me that something was amiss, when my lengendary level 19 fully upgraded survivors could not not survive a outpost attack against a player with level 16 survivors. (I was the one attacking)
    [Deleted User]PapacasInspTurbines
  • OneLessTitanOneLessTitan Member Posts: 1,273
    I haven't assumed anything, nor have I claimed to prove anything. I've stated my experiences based on my 1000's of attack SAMPLES, taken from my gameplay POPULATION. All the people I've heard crying foul over this issue are whining because a damage display value went down, with nothing being backed up by their actual gameplay results. The only person I've really seen that's tried to provide any evidence claimed they can no longer kill Level 24 walkers with one shot in Overwatch like he was before (lol, we know that's BS). Like I said, I'm not discounting anyones anecdotal accounts, but I'm also not taking their words for it. Nor should you take mine. I only ask if you are actually finding any real differences...

    Is anyone seeing their Star Counts diminish? Is anyone getting less XP from micro-farming explore missions because you can't get as far? If yes, is that because you are playing the exact same way? or are the results a self-fulfilling prophecy fueled by anger at NG....
    IllbrainerPapacas
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 47
    edited July 2016
    @OneLessTitan I actually had a screenshot but it has been deleted along with many other pics. It was a pic of my lvl 18 warrior causing half the damage of normal on a walker of a lower lvl. That's why I originally took the photo because I clicked to see how much damage was left and it was half. You don't have to believe me. I could care less

    Edit: this is pre 2.0 as I don't care enough to play post 2.0
    Melaniex
  • Japes87Japes87 Member Posts: 1,399
    Just on the warrior nerf Note, they did nerf warrior and they didn't like when I called them on it .. that was a while ago after the double damage warrior week though ND there are much more pressing problems now .. all of the conjecture and guesswork wouldn't even be happening if they didn't get rid of the base damage totals so they could nerf us at will then watch us argue about it for weeks lol
    MelaniexMizTy[Deleted User]
  • DLichDLich Member Posts: 5,541

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  • RorshackRorshack Member Posts: 103
    edited July 2016
    I disagree wholeheartedly on your statement @OneLessTitan . I have watched each number roll out on each hit and i have noticed a large decrease in damage. This has happened from 1.10 to 2.0. I have theories that it may not actually be the damage itself but an increase in body shots and a decrease in critical hits. I have a sample size of roughly 150 missions thus far (146 actual). I have tried to record numbers on each mission (generally tanks and armoured as they give me the most trouble) to get as accurate information as possible.

    What i know has changed is that i used to 2 hit level 18/19 tanks. Now i have to triple hit level 16 tanks and that still may not be enough. My assault team used to be able to handle most level 18-19-20 missions with out getting banged up. Now, they are in the hospital more than they get fielded at a 19 level mission. All of my A and B team are level 18(player level 46). A team have full legendary gear maxed out at level 20-21. B team has at least epic.

    In the end it may not be about damage reductions but it may be the increase in body shots or decrease in crits that may make it feel like a reduction, but something has obviously changed.
    Melaniex[Deleted User]PapacasInspTurbines
  • OneLessTitanOneLessTitan Member Posts: 1,273
    DLich said:
    I don't see any proof they were nerfed, I see great math showing the differences in display values between the two updates...
  • OneLessTitanOneLessTitan Member Posts: 1,273
    edited July 2016
    Rorshack said:

    I disagree wholeheartedly on your statement @OneLessTitan . I have watched each number roll out on each hit and i have noticed a large decrease in damage. This has happened from 1.10 to 2.0. I have theories that it may not actually be the damage itself but an increase in body shots and a decrease in critical hits. I have a sample size of roughly 150 missions thus far (146 actual). I have tried to record numbers on each mission (generally tanks and armoured as they give me the most trouble) to get as accurate information as possible.

    What i know has changed is that i used to 2 hit level 18/19 tanks. Now i have to triple hit level 16 tanks and that still may not be enough. My assault team used to be able to handle most level 18-19-20 missions with out getting banged up. Now, they are in the hospital more than they get fielded at a 19 level mission. All of my A and B team are level 18(player level 46). A team have full legendary gear maxed out at level 20-21. B team has at least epic.

    In the end it may not be about damage reductions but it may be the increase in body shots or decrease in crits that may make it feel like a reduction, but something has obviously changed.


    I do agree that Tanks and Armored Walkers got tougher during one of the previous updates, especially more body shots on lower leveled Armors when shot...but they are supposed to be bullet proof....but they are pretty easy for me to take out with Warriors (with 3 updates coming out so close together, I'm having trouble remembering what update it was.) Honestly, I think the community would love to see your data, or at least I would.

    (Edited to add: I was focused on Normal Walkers in my OP since those are mainly what we encounter, but yes, Tanks/Armored did get tougher at some point in the recent past.)
    rgerkmanPapacas
  • zbotzbot NML Legendary Moderator, OW Moderator Posts: 7,051
    Still catching up but as @theRealBender , mentioned, I think there are two things working, the incorrect display issues with traits and update 1.10 combat rebalancing . The users that are noticing are the high-end players from reading the forum.

    There are two separate issues that are overlapping which is why it's confusing, anyone know the poem Three Blind Mice? This is just my observations from playing and reading the forum, nothing official.

    Update 1.10: Combat Stats Rebalancing

    In update 1.10, there will be a rebalancing of combat stats, meaning damage, health, and armor. This balance change will be universal and affect survivors, raiders, walkers and equipment alike. The changes are subtle and won’t affect gameplay on a larger scale, but have to be made in order for level progression in-game to not become imbalanced in the long run.

    The way stats progression works at this time would mean that as the levels go higher (19, 20, 21…) the survivors, raiders, walkers and equipment with these levels will become largely overpowered, so we’ve decided to make these changes in update 1.10. Higher level equipment, survivors, raiders and walkers have been the most overpowered until now, and as such, high-end players will see these changes the most. That being said, these changes are not game-changing or -breaking for any player.

    This, and other balance tweaks we’ve made are in order to fine tune the game and make it more fun and fair for all players. They also ensure that No Man’s Land stays fresh and can be continue to updated long in to the future. Your feedback to all changes we make and features we release, as always, is very important to us so do let us know how the game feels once you’ve tried the newest update!
    rgerkmanMizTyT_12
  • theRealBendertheRealBender Member Posts: 1,251
    zbot said:

    The changes are subtle and won’t affect gameplay on a larger scale,


    This, and other balance tweaks we’ve made are in order to fine tune the game and make it more fun and fair for all players. They also ensure that No Man’s Land stays fresh and can be continue to updated long in to the future.


    I think this is really the crux of the OP's comment and I agree - I had to make minor adjustments and make a tiny bit of progress and I was accomplishing the same, if not more, in the game. But there were changes for sure.
    Back from 2016 :p
  • RorshackRorshack Member Posts: 103
    edited July 2016
    @OneLessTitan I understand bulletproof and tanks. I am not really talking about warriors because i haven't used melee survivors in a long time. Correction, i used them today A/B teams were in for wound treatment.

    What data would you like to see? the amount of criticals and their damage ranges with medians broken down by classes that i used? Let me know. Keep in mind I don't have max level characters or weapons.
    [Deleted User]
  • DoTakDoTak Member Posts: 1,964
    I know this isn't the main focus of the conversation, but thought it could have some use. Following table shows my own notes on walker health pre and post update 1.10



    My personal perception is it seems like body shots increased in frequency slightly, but obviously, noticeably, somewhere along the way (I'm thinking around 1.10?) I've noticed this with ranged survivors, not so much with melee. In fact, I've been using melee survivors a lot more because I feel they're more dependable/predictable when it comes to the chance of body shots.

    Other than the 1.10 balancing and taking into account the perceived changes I noted above (don't make record of combat figures so can't say for sure), I have to say that I'm not really feeling any huge setback in my survivor's combat capabilities. But as it's been stated, I only know what's happening in my game, not anyone else's.
    OneLessTitanDLich
  • OneLessTitanOneLessTitan Member Posts: 1,273
    Rorshack said:

    @OneLessTitan I understand bulletproof and tanks. I am not really talking about warriors because i haven't used melee survivors in a long time. Correction, i used them today A/B teams were in for wound treatment.

    What data would you like to see? the amount of criticals and their damage ranges with medians broken down by classes that i used? Let me know. Keep in mind I don't have max level characters or weapons.

    Here's the data that I track, and I would love to add yours to my collection if you don't mind sharing. For each individual attack, this is the data I have collected:

    Date
    Survivor Level, Class, & Prestige
    Survivor Trait Info: Lucky % & Marksman % (for ranged, Strong % for melee)
    Weapon Level & Prestige
    Weapon Trait info (Lucky %, Accurate %, Lethal %, Destructive %)
    Walker Level & Type
    Did the attack result in a kill?
    Was the Walker injured before the attack?
    Did the attack result in a critical?
    Did the attack result in Lucky being activated?
    Did the attack result in a Body Shot?

    And your Attack Damage Value - I have yet to track that yet since I'm usually shooting multiple walkers, and I can't read all the damage values when they pop up. Perhaps eventually I will do that, but it gets tedious tracking stuff, and not sure I have the patience to kill one walker at a time so I can get those damage numbers. To be honest, I don't have the motivation to keep tracking this info; I've really only been trying to isolate a few key numbers.
  • OneLessTitanOneLessTitan Member Posts: 1,273
    As I mentioned in another thread, I suppose I made a mistake in assuming everyone realized there are most likely two different formulas that are independent of each other:

    Formula 1: Combat Formula - this formula is used for combat mechanics within a mission...it utilizes variance along with all the Traits a Survivor/Equipment has to determine the actual damage done by a Survivor to a Walker.

    Formula 2: Damage/Health Display Formula in Survivor Profile - this formula has nothing to do with combat mechanics, and was introduced one or two updates ago. The Display Damage Formula only accounts for Base Survivor Damage, Marksman, and Lethal.

    Formula 2 was programmed incorrectly, thus the Survivor Damage Display value was higher than it was supposed to be. But that formula had nothing to do with the Combat Formula. My belief is that changing Formula 2 has no impact on Formula 1, but people see a change to Formula 2, and assume Formula has also been changed. Am I certain this is the case? Of course not, but that's what I believe to be true.

    Soon, there will probably be another shitstorm when they fix Formula 2 (again). As @DLich showed, Marksman is currently being applied to Survivor Base Damage, instead of Weapon Base Damage (as the Trait says it should.) So, if your weapon base damage is less than your Survivor's base damage, it will look like you've been nerfed again. But, if your Weapon Base Damage is higher than your Survivor's Base Damage, than it will look like you've been buffed (and I doubt anyone will thank NG for that..lol). The most likely case is that nothing will actually have been nerfed or buffed, for the same reasons I've just listed about the 2 independent formulas.
    DLichMizTy
  • RorshackRorshack Member Posts: 103
    edited July 2016
    @OneLessTitan thats a lot of data that i only marginally collect. I try to keep walker levels the same (or only take data when they are). The survivor traits never change for me as i use the same 3 for 99% of activity (less raiding). when i use my B team i note that and rarely take their numbers into consideration. When i have time i will begin taking data for other classes (hopefully a lot of melee class).

    I do however collect actual damage numbers. min/max/median for all shots including non critical shots (body and normal), critical and so on. I do try to pay attention to whether i moved the survivor or not (with the new traits) as well as watch for lucky shots opposed to normal.

    My goal is to track percentages. the frequency of critical strikes, critical strikes without lucky shot, the percentage of body shots, the percentage of damage increase for a critical strike (EG: hunter is roughly 2x while assault is about 10-17%...have to run the numbers still).

    I believe that percentages are what people respond most to. its easy and straightforward to understand and accept.

    Ill compile the info as much as i can and get some numbers off to you when i have some down time (i still pen and paper my stats so it may take a day or two).
    Japes87OneLessTitan
  • DanofthedeadDanofthedead Member Posts: 60
    edited July 2016
    It's nerf or nothing
    [¬O-o]¬
  • OneLessTitanOneLessTitan Member Posts: 1,273
    Rorshack said:

    @OneLessTitan thats a lot of data that i only marginally collect. I try to keep walker levels the same (or only take data when they are). The survivor traits never change for me as i use the same 3 for 99% of activity (less raiding). when i use my B team i note that and rarely take their numbers into consideration. When i have time i will begin taking data for other classes (hopefully a lot of melee class).

    I do however collect actual damage numbers. min/max/median for all shots including non critical shots (body and normal), critical and so on. I do try to pay attention to whether i moved the survivor or not (with the new traits) as well as watch for lucky shots opposed to normal.

    My goal is to track percentages. the frequency of critical strikes, critical strikes without lucky shot, the percentage of body shots, the percentage of damage increase for a critical strike (EG: hunter is roughly 2x while assault is about 10-17%...have to run the numbers still).

    I believe that percentages are what people respond most to. its easy and straightforward to understand and accept.

    Ill compile the info as much as i can and get some numbers off to you when i have some down time (i still pen and paper my stats so it may take a day or two).


    No need to send it my way. But please share with everyone when you're comfortable with your results. I'm basically trying to isolate critical shot %, and body shot %...and those vary with the Walker level. It's gonna be a while before I can sort through all the variables and (hopefully) isolate some %s. One distinction to look out for is that sometimes you'll get a Critical shot, and sometimes you'll get a Critical Shot with "Lucky" popping up afterwards. After a suggestion from a guild mate, I did some more searching and found a way to record my iPhone gameplay, so I may be able to add some Damage Values as well.
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