I don't think Survivors were Nerfed
OneLessTitan
Member Posts: 1,273
At the risk of being wildly unpopular, I actually believe NG when they say Survivors weren't nerfed with this update. I do believe that it was just a "display error" that didn't influence combat.
Here's my reasoning.
I collect a lot of data (most of you already know that I'm a nerd), but actual damage points during attacks isn't something I collect (too much info pops up after an attack, and I've been tracking other things like critical attacks/lucky activation/body shots during attacks and can't get all the info that pops up). But, I can tell you that I've been killing the same level walkers, with the same Survivors, with the same Equipment, at the same regularity as before the 2.0 update. My sample sizes aren't huge, so it's not a perfect measure, but thus far, nothing is different.
Second, I've been able to get the same amount of Guild Challenge Stars after the update as before. Before, I was getting about 57 stars per map, and that's exactly what I'm getting this week.
Third, despite a contradictory user report, all of the Health Ratings for Walkers are exactly the same as before the 2.0 update. I can only comment on Normal Walkers up to Level 26, and Tank Walkers up to Level 22. I haven't checked Tank Walker Health Ratings (EDIT: haven't checked ARMORED Walkers). But from what I've tracked, the health ratings are EXACTLY the same so far.
You may say they nerfed our Survivors an update or two ago, but I also disagree with that statement. Sure, the ratings for Survivors may have been lowered, but so were the Walkers ratings. In fact, after they lowered the ratings for Survivors and Walkers, I started to get MORE challenge stars and kill higher level Walkers with more efficiency, even before I was able to level up my Survivors to 19. Say your paycheck was decreased by 10%. In a vacuum, that sucks big time. But if the cost of everything in the world was dropped by 10% to 12%, then your pay cut doesn't mean anything, and may actually help you out if the costs of all the items are dropped by more than 10% (not a perfect analogy, I know, but you get the picture.)
I also don't think it makes sense (financially) for NG to nerf Survivors. I'm guessing the majority of players participate in Guilds. The enormous gas prices of these missions force higher level players to spend gold on gas or buy a gas booster in order to maximize their star production. Nerfing Survivors would cause players to need less gas, and thus not be spending to maximize their Stars.
All that said, I don't like a lot of the decisions NG has made recently, and have voiced my opinions on those issues. But I think this is a non issue that many people are freaking out about, with no real validity behind their claims. I could be wrong, but so far my experiences are telling me that I'm not wrong about this.
Now, for people that bought the bundle with Rick's Silenced gun, I think you should be refunded your money, and you should put a refund request with Apple or Google (it's been a couple years since I've requested a refund for an App Purchase through Apple, so I can only comment that they refunded me with no hassle in that instance). If that Trait was nerfed (or even if there was a "display error" showing the wrong Trait %), then you bought something that was nerfed (or sold something with inaccurate information), and you have every right to getting your $ back, IMO.
Here's my reasoning.
I collect a lot of data (most of you already know that I'm a nerd), but actual damage points during attacks isn't something I collect (too much info pops up after an attack, and I've been tracking other things like critical attacks/lucky activation/body shots during attacks and can't get all the info that pops up). But, I can tell you that I've been killing the same level walkers, with the same Survivors, with the same Equipment, at the same regularity as before the 2.0 update. My sample sizes aren't huge, so it's not a perfect measure, but thus far, nothing is different.
Second, I've been able to get the same amount of Guild Challenge Stars after the update as before. Before, I was getting about 57 stars per map, and that's exactly what I'm getting this week.
Third, despite a contradictory user report, all of the Health Ratings for Walkers are exactly the same as before the 2.0 update. I can only comment on Normal Walkers up to Level 26, and Tank Walkers up to Level 22. I haven't checked Tank Walker Health Ratings (EDIT: haven't checked ARMORED Walkers). But from what I've tracked, the health ratings are EXACTLY the same so far.
You may say they nerfed our Survivors an update or two ago, but I also disagree with that statement. Sure, the ratings for Survivors may have been lowered, but so were the Walkers ratings. In fact, after they lowered the ratings for Survivors and Walkers, I started to get MORE challenge stars and kill higher level Walkers with more efficiency, even before I was able to level up my Survivors to 19. Say your paycheck was decreased by 10%. In a vacuum, that sucks big time. But if the cost of everything in the world was dropped by 10% to 12%, then your pay cut doesn't mean anything, and may actually help you out if the costs of all the items are dropped by more than 10% (not a perfect analogy, I know, but you get the picture.)
I also don't think it makes sense (financially) for NG to nerf Survivors. I'm guessing the majority of players participate in Guilds. The enormous gas prices of these missions force higher level players to spend gold on gas or buy a gas booster in order to maximize their star production. Nerfing Survivors would cause players to need less gas, and thus not be spending to maximize their Stars.
All that said, I don't like a lot of the decisions NG has made recently, and have voiced my opinions on those issues. But I think this is a non issue that many people are freaking out about, with no real validity behind their claims. I could be wrong, but so far my experiences are telling me that I'm not wrong about this.
Now, for people that bought the bundle with Rick's Silenced gun, I think you should be refunded your money, and you should put a refund request with Apple or Google (it's been a couple years since I've requested a refund for an App Purchase through Apple, so I can only comment that they refunded me with no hassle in that instance). If that Trait was nerfed (or even if there was a "display error" showing the wrong Trait %), then you bought something that was nerfed (or sold something with inaccurate information), and you have every right to getting your $ back, IMO.
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Probably making a video!
My Youtube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/user/MultiPainproduction
Probably making a video!
My Youtube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/user/MultiPainproduction
I think the way to measure any potential nerfing (for guild players) is whether or not you are still achieving the same Star Counts. My Stars will vary a bit based on how effective I am with maximizing my gas, and how many Stars I lose by sticking around and micro-farming levels too long and getting injured (thus costing me more gas in the long term, and causing me to play less levels because I don't have the time or the desire to spend gold/$$ for more gas).
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If it is occuring, then those who believe they're effected will have a hard time convincing the devs it's occuring unless they were lucky enough to have video demonstrating the difference which is highly unlikely. If one of the content creators suffers this then it could possibly be proven.
Also keep in mind that this issue has only occured after they apparently fixed an issue with the game incorrectly displaying details so it is possible that even though things look correct they might not actually be so.
As people knowledgeable with stats you know that a sample of 1 is no proof of anything. In this case there are quite a few people crying foul and at this stage. While that's also not proof of anything but it should be considered possible.
I've not suffered it either to date but members of my guild who i trust say they have and i've at this stage no reason to doubt what they're saying. Do i doubt ng? Well they seem to have issues with be able to communicate and their decision making has been thrown into doubt in recent time. Eg they can use Bitch Nuts as an ability name, but i can't say BLANK? And who thought we'd ever go for all these token types? That nerfing purchased items wouldn't cause an uproar?
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Is anyone seeing their Star Counts diminish? Is anyone getting less XP from micro-farming explore missions because you can't get as far? If yes, is that because you are playing the exact same way? or are the results a self-fulfilling prophecy fueled by anger at NG....
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Edit: this is pre 2.0 as I don't care enough to play post 2.0
http://forums.nextgames.com/walkingdead/discussion/13218/i-feel-i-am-being-lied-to#latest
To see how survivors were infact nerfed.
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What i know has changed is that i used to 2 hit level 18/19 tanks. Now i have to triple hit level 16 tanks and that still may not be enough. My assault team used to be able to handle most level 18-19-20 missions with out getting banged up. Now, they are in the hospital more than they get fielded at a 19 level mission. All of my A and B team are level 18(player level 46). A team have full legendary gear maxed out at level 20-21. B team has at least epic.
In the end it may not be about damage reductions but it may be the increase in body shots or decrease in crits that may make it feel like a reduction, but something has obviously changed.
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I do agree that Tanks and Armored Walkers got tougher during one of the previous updates, especially more body shots on lower leveled Armors when shot...but they are supposed to be bullet proof....but they are pretty easy for me to take out with Warriors (with 3 updates coming out so close together, I'm having trouble remembering what update it was.) Honestly, I think the community would love to see your data, or at least I would.
(Edited to add: I was focused on Normal Walkers in my OP since those are mainly what we encounter, but yes, Tanks/Armored did get tougher at some point in the recent past.)
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However, they most definitely, in my game experience, nerfed combat.
I cannot kill walkers as quickly. I cannot kill the same walkers with the same equipment and same level survivors.
I am getting dodged more in Outposts. I am getting WAY MORE bodyshots from ranged survivors it's like night and day.
Again, I don't have a problem with all of this. But it has definitely happened. So maybe we are talking about specific aspects of combat and people are talking about the different minutiae of survivor changes, equipment changes and the nerfing ... And one last thing: it was announced by NG themselves that they nerfed things but they didn't use the word nerf
There are two separate issues that are overlapping which is why it's confusing, anyone know the poem Three Blind Mice? This is just my observations from playing and reading the forum, nothing official.
Update 1.10: Combat Stats Rebalancing
In update 1.10, there will be a rebalancing of combat stats, meaning damage, health, and armor. This balance change will be universal and affect survivors, raiders, walkers and equipment alike. The changes are subtle and won’t affect gameplay on a larger scale, but have to be made in order for level progression in-game to not become imbalanced in the long run.
The way stats progression works at this time would mean that as the levels go higher (19, 20, 21…) the survivors, raiders, walkers and equipment with these levels will become largely overpowered, so we’ve decided to make these changes in update 1.10. Higher level equipment, survivors, raiders and walkers have been the most overpowered until now, and as such, high-end players will see these changes the most. That being said, these changes are not game-changing or -breaking for any player.
This, and other balance tweaks we’ve made are in order to fine tune the game and make it more fun and fair for all players. They also ensure that No Man’s Land stays fresh and can be continue to updated long in to the future. Your feedback to all changes we make and features we release, as always, is very important to us so do let us know how the game feels once you’ve tried the newest update!
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I think this is really the crux of the OP's comment and I agree - I had to make minor adjustments and make a tiny bit of progress and I was accomplishing the same, if not more, in the game. But there were changes for sure.
What data would you like to see? the amount of criticals and their damage ranges with medians broken down by classes that i used? Let me know. Keep in mind I don't have max level characters or weapons.
My personal perception is it seems like body shots increased in frequency slightly, but obviously, noticeably, somewhere along the way (I'm thinking around 1.10?) I've noticed this with ranged survivors, not so much with melee. In fact, I've been using melee survivors a lot more because I feel they're more dependable/predictable when it comes to the chance of body shots.
Other than the 1.10 balancing and taking into account the perceived changes I noted above (don't make record of combat figures so can't say for sure), I have to say that I'm not really feeling any huge setback in my survivor's combat capabilities. But as it's been stated, I only know what's happening in my game, not anyone else's.
Date
Survivor Level, Class, & Prestige
Survivor Trait Info: Lucky % & Marksman % (for ranged, Strong % for melee)
Weapon Level & Prestige
Weapon Trait info (Lucky %, Accurate %, Lethal %, Destructive %)
Walker Level & Type
Did the attack result in a kill?
Was the Walker injured before the attack?
Did the attack result in a critical?
Did the attack result in Lucky being activated?
Did the attack result in a Body Shot?
And your Attack Damage Value - I have yet to track that yet since I'm usually shooting multiple walkers, and I can't read all the damage values when they pop up. Perhaps eventually I will do that, but it gets tedious tracking stuff, and not sure I have the patience to kill one walker at a time so I can get those damage numbers. To be honest, I don't have the motivation to keep tracking this info; I've really only been trying to isolate a few key numbers.
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Formula 1: Combat Formula - this formula is used for combat mechanics within a mission...it utilizes variance along with all the Traits a Survivor/Equipment has to determine the actual damage done by a Survivor to a Walker.
Formula 2: Damage/Health Display Formula in Survivor Profile - this formula has nothing to do with combat mechanics, and was introduced one or two updates ago. The Display Damage Formula only accounts for Base Survivor Damage, Marksman, and Lethal.
Formula 2 was programmed incorrectly, thus the Survivor Damage Display value was higher than it was supposed to be. But that formula had nothing to do with the Combat Formula. My belief is that changing Formula 2 has no impact on Formula 1, but people see a change to Formula 2, and assume Formula has also been changed. Am I certain this is the case? Of course not, but that's what I believe to be true.
Soon, there will probably be another shitstorm when they fix Formula 2 (again). As @DLich showed, Marksman is currently being applied to Survivor Base Damage, instead of Weapon Base Damage (as the Trait says it should.) So, if your weapon base damage is less than your Survivor's base damage, it will look like you've been nerfed again. But, if your Weapon Base Damage is higher than your Survivor's Base Damage, than it will look like you've been buffed (and I doubt anyone will thank NG for that..lol). The most likely case is that nothing will actually have been nerfed or buffed, for the same reasons I've just listed about the 2 independent formulas.
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I do however collect actual damage numbers. min/max/median for all shots including non critical shots (body and normal), critical and so on. I do try to pay attention to whether i moved the survivor or not (with the new traits) as well as watch for lucky shots opposed to normal.
My goal is to track percentages. the frequency of critical strikes, critical strikes without lucky shot, the percentage of body shots, the percentage of damage increase for a critical strike (EG: hunter is roughly 2x while assault is about 10-17%...have to run the numbers still).
I believe that percentages are what people respond most to. its easy and straightforward to understand and accept.
Ill compile the info as much as i can and get some numbers off to you when i have some down time (i still pen and paper my stats so it may take a day or two).
No need to send it my way. But please share with everyone when you're comfortable with your results. I'm basically trying to isolate critical shot %, and body shot %...and those vary with the Walker level. It's gonna be a while before I can sort through all the variables and (hopefully) isolate some %s. One distinction to look out for is that sometimes you'll get a Critical shot, and sometimes you'll get a Critical Shot with "Lucky" popping up afterwards. After a suggestion from a guild mate, I did some more searching and found a way to record my iPhone gameplay, so I may be able to add some Damage Values as well.
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