It's statements like that which show that there were too few viable traits, and that the builds that were preferred were not conducive to a long-term view of the game balance. If the only reason Overwatch was worth doing was to never get attacked via 100% interrupt, then there is a big imbalance with the trait power level. Similarly, if the only traits worth keeping were dodge and luck and the rest was negligible, we have done a bad job of making a balanced set of traits.
If there were a way to leave the offenders alone, we would have. As is, I can now buff the other traits and people will possibly care. I know it's a hard thing to build a new team for a new environment, but I hope you have some fun trying out builds and traits that you previously ignored.
Development Team Member - The Walking Dead: No Man's Land Please note: Development is a fluid process, and suggestions and implementation take time and iteration. Any discussion of future features, deadlines, updates, balance changes, and such should be considered prospective and subject to change.
I would say vigilant is more useful than either power strike or defensive stance. At least it's more damage. Take a strong survivor or a marksman, add vigilant, and you can hit decently hard on overwatch. Also, unlike power strike and defensive stance, you don't have to risk getting hit to use it.
That doesn't change the fact that all three of these skills were already bottom of the barrel as far as usefulness is concerned, and they got worse with this update.
Bla bla bla we want you to get injured more so you have to spend more on healing. That is what you are actually saying. Yes we dont want to get injured...because injuries mean you have to stop playing or spend money. So by saying you want it to be more exciting, what you are really saying is you want the threat of having to spend more money to do well to be much stronger.
@BarcodeJ We want you to level up more than 1 or 2 teams worth of survivors - which you can do for free. We want you to experiment with different builds and not throw out any gear without one specific trait - which you can do for free. We want you to have to put thought into play, and not rely on guaranteed risk-free tactics to proceed - which you can do for free.
Nothing in this update or the last was made with the express purpose to somehow 'force' players to spend money.
Development Team Member - The Walking Dead: No Man's Land Please note: Development is a fluid process, and suggestions and implementation take time and iteration. Any discussion of future features, deadlines, updates, balance changes, and such should be considered prospective and subject to change.
@Teeceezy or @Shteevie please clarify what is the new math for only one luck source? If my survivor has gold luck and silver charging on weapon what is the result percentage of charging trait: 20+15=35% or 20*1,15=23%? Thanks in advance.
@shteevie the problem with that is that people adopted strategies based on the vealus of specific traits and spent money to acquire weapons/armor/survivors with these traits that you've now significantly nerfed without making any real improvements to traits that are pretty much useless.
Oh @Shteevie ... I respect you defending the changes, but so much from your post I disagree with...
You said the "buffs" will go a long way...I think you added an "s" to the word buff. As far as I can tell from the update notes, only one trait has been buffed: wrestler. EVERYTHING else has been nerfed or stayed the same, but mostly nerfed since the relationship with Lucky.
You also said that "many traits should be used to help to beat high level walkers" (sorry for inexact quote, on my phone)...as it stands, there are ZERO traits useful against walkers 4+ above your survivor level. To say that interruptor was useful on almost every mission is a joke. There is a mission or two on each challenge that may be manipulated with interrupt. I don't understand why the answer to poorly designed maps is to nerf the one trait that was useful against high level walkers. Maybe if you told us the body shot % we should expect against differing levels of walkers, we could believe you when you said we'd still interrupt the enemy "most of the time." If you don't tell us that info, we will just assume interrupt will rarely work when we need it due to the history of our game experiences and body shot %s.
For the players that purchased gear for real $, what # should people be including in their in game support tickets to get their refund? This is the EXACT same situation as Ricks Silenced Pistol, so I'm assuming NG is handling the refunds in the same manner as you did with that situation. Thankfully I'm not in that position (the only upside of keeping the gear level cap is that I won't buy any gear), but that info will be helpful to the users that bought something that has been weakened. I hope NG sends that refund information to ALL USERS, unlike what you did with Ricks pistol and only told forum users so as to avoid accountability to the other 99.9% of players.
@Intersolar None of the Luck match is additive any more. It works the same with 1 or 2 sources, and for weapon or survivor-based luck.
[Sum of all base chances] * (1 + ([sum of all luck]/100))
So 20% * 1.15 = 23%
Now, getting the better base chance is more important than getting only the best luck, which means that the relationship between the two traits is more logical.
Development Team Member - The Walking Dead: No Man's Land Please note: Development is a fluid process, and suggestions and implementation take time and iteration. Any discussion of future features, deadlines, updates, balance changes, and such should be considered prospective and subject to change.
... the only reason Overwatch was worth doing was to never get attacked via 100% interrupt, then there is a big imbalance with the trait power level.
Which makes me question NG's decision making process to begin with. If a trait such as Interrupt, has a 100% chance to do ANYTHING, I would bet my life savings that someone is going to find a way to exploit that thing. It's like a bunch of guys just sat around a table and someone said, "Hey this sounds cool. Let's do it." and everyone agreed and moved on to the next cool thing. So I find it difficult to trust you guys with the future of the game no matter how many times I hear words of encouragement that we will appreciate the coming changes.
...I know it's a hard thing to build a new team for a new environment...
This is pure understatement. The time and money spent working on the many different aspects of playing this game only to have to start anew can hardly be summed up as "hard thing",
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It's statements like that which show that there were too few viable traits, and that the builds that were preferred were not conducive to a long-term view of the game balance. If the only reason Overwatch was worth doing was to never get attacked via 100% interrupt, then there is a big imbalance with the trait power level. Similarly, if the only traits worth keeping were dodge and luck and the rest was negligible, we have done a bad job of making a balanced set of traits.
If there were a way to leave the offenders alone, we would have. As is, I can now buff the other traits and people will possibly care. I know it's a hard thing to build a new team for a new environment, but I hope you have some fun trying out builds and traits that you previously ignored.
You reduced the number of viable traits with this patch. You didn't increase them. Everyone is going to seek out the same traits. Luck, Dodge, Bullet Dodge, Marksman, and Sure Shot still reign supreme.
You made the good traits worse, yes, that should make other traits more appealing. But much as I agree with the change to interrupt, it made the bad traits worse. So there's still absolutely no incentive to use anything different.
The playerbase does not agree with you that the only way to solve the trait power level issue was by making the good traits worse. There are a number of things that could be done to the bad traits to make them desirable in comparison.
For example, make Defensive Stance allow you to proc retaliate on overwatch. Make vigilant allow a second overwatch shot on a second target rather than just increased damage. And make power strike work on 1ap moves instead of just from a standstill.
Yep, unfortunately I had mentioned several times that everyone was complaining about the idea of not having luck stack. That we needed to be careful with quickly writing it off. However, that was probably the best option. It would allow for another trait to be used instead, And as you mention, it would have given a higher %
I am glad I don't have to worry about all these issues I just adapt to whatever is thrown at me
I never used 100% interrupt as my only tactic because I don't care to stick around after a certain level walker shows up Being that my A team is only level 17, I leave the maps after level 21 walkers show up and my ranged weapons can't take them out easily
@Shteevie i have a few teams/builds. There wasnt one end all strategy. There were a bunch. My problem is you nerfed them all and did not provide any better options. Therefore you want us to achieve less and at a higher cost. Hospital time is cumulative. If one team is out adding another means your wait time goes up to 5 hours, then 7.5 hours to get your players back if yoy fully injur 3 teams. And bruised players have to wait if there are heavy injuries ahead of them. Basically you either shell out a lot of gold on healing or you have to quit at +1 or 2 of your level. This means decreased opportunity to find new gear. Stuck with old nerfed gear. And none of the other traits got better so there really isnt any point in changing anyway.
As for refunds, it's not my place to say. I'm not the refund team, and we're not the first company to make balancing adjustments to a live game. Anyone who has played online pvp games, or collectible card games, or followed sports has seen events like this in the past. We believe it is for the betterment of the game in the long run, allows us to make more content that you will be interested in playing, and keep players in the game for longer rather than letting them get bored of the one best strategy.
If you are in disagreement with me in the moment, I completely understand. Whether or not you bought or grinded for your current team, I know that making adjustments is rough. We don't make these changes lightly, and we certainly don't do it to wring money out of players.
Stick around for a week and try the Season 7 stuff. Maybe you'll like the rewards. Try the new challenges. Maybe you'll agree that the effort is more rewarding. There are a lot of traits that are due to be improved, and I'm pretty confident that we can get those out before too long. To go along with other improvements as I have discussed elsewhere on the forums, of course.
Development Team Member - The Walking Dead: No Man's Land Please note: Development is a fluid process, and suggestions and implementation take time and iteration. Any discussion of future features, deadlines, updates, balance changes, and such should be considered prospective and subject to change.
@Shteevie I also respect you for trying to explain the rationale behind nerfing interrupt but it just doesn't hold up. As @OneLessTitan said, it seems like you had a problem with some high level users exploiting poorly designed challenge maps and therefore you made a change that affected everyone else.
Instead of asking us to be more "creative" in using equipment that no longer represents what was sold to us, why shouldn't we ask NG to be more creative in how you design your challenge maps so that the repeatable challenge missions don't happen. I think any of us who are at a high enough level could tell you within the first minute of playing a challenge mission which ones are repeatable and which ones aren't. If we can tell, why can't NG tell that and solve the problem on your end.
And, I don't think interrupt was a golden ticket that solved all problems. In fact, there are lots of times where you still took damage but it did allow you to come up with creative ways to defeat higher level maps and minimize the damage you took. Saying it will still work at lower levels just shows a basic misunderstanding of the game because at those levels the interrupt never kicks in because you will kill the walker on overwatch. It is exactly at the point where you rely on it (against higher lvl walkers) where the body shots are most likely to occur and, therefore, make it not reliable and therefore likely to go immediately to a struggle when it doesn't work.
Taking 100% interrupt away doesn't make the game more challenging because we will still be able to defeat those maps, it just means we are more likely to spend time in the hospital and play less. That doesn't make the game better in my opinion.
So I was excited about the update and loved it. But then I played and I noticed an enemy didn't get interrupted, I thought maybe this was some kind of glitch so I tried again. Again it happened, this time I saw "interrupt avoided" appear!
So around 85% of my equipment is based on 100% interrupt, I have invested a lot of time and money into this game, now useless. No mention of it in the update notes either and you have continued to sell 100% interrupt weapons, knowing they'd be next to useless - this is fraud, pure and simple.
Maybe if there was an announcement and players were able to choose a different trait for weapons but to just do this thinking we would not notice? It's a disgusting and underhand way to do business. It's a big part of the gameplay too, the whole "end turn" and use of interrupt, especially when doing higher level raids etc.
I did 10 interrupts, 7 of them said "interrupt avoided".
I absolutely loved the update until I saw this, we have a big guild, a YouTube channel etc. too but I don't think I can do business with a company who acts this way, I will reluctantly be requesting a refund from Apple.
There doesn't seem to be any detail about it, the 100% interrupt now seems to be 30% interrupt. I just don't get why you'd do this.
@Shteevie If you want us to use different gear/survivors maybe you should look into the costs to upgrade things. And/also the RNG to get them.. But I think you're going the wrong way, because we/i have our favorites and we/I want to keep it that way.
There would have been much better ways to do the same as you tried.
Like, every walker level above you would reduce the effectiveness of your trait by 10% So Dodge = 60% level +1 = 54% +2 = 49% +3 = 44% +4 = 40% +5 = 36% +6 = 32% +7 = 29% At least that way we could get to +7 before we get to the same level as you propose
Interrupt wopuld be 53% at +7. But it would still give us a chance
Also moderating the comment from @harudsgn was bull. She said nothing rude and was not being toxic. People being overly sensitive that we dont like your update
Before 2.2 Luck was making everybody "trying their luck", like in roulette, where most of chances is close to 50% or 30%: Dodge: 30% max. 15% average. (35-60% with Luck - fair enough for 3-4 traits together in one build). Charging: 30% max. 20% silver (40-60% with Luck - fair enough for 3 traits together in one build). Silenced: 30% max. 20% silver (40-60% with Luck - fair enough for 3 traits together in one build). Bulletproof: 30% max. 20% silver (40-60% with Luck - fair enough for 3 traits together in one build). Accurate: 15% max. 10% silver. (20-45% with Luck - fair enough for 2-3 traits together in one build). Swift Strike: 15% max. 10% silver. (20-45% with Luck - fair enough for 2-3 traits together in one build).
In 2.2 Luck is a [email protected] joke. Now Luck adding to traits nothing: Gold Dodge: 4.5% per one golden Luck trait. Silver Dodge: 3% per one golden Luck trait. Gold Charging: 4.5% per one golden Luck trait. Silver Charging: 3% per one golden Luck trait. Gold Silenced: 4.5% per one golden Luck trait. Silver Charging: 3% per one golden Luck trait. Gold Bulletproof: 4.5% per one golden Luck trait. Silver Bulletproof: 3% per one golden Luck trait. Gold Accurate: 2,25% per one golden Luck trait. Silver Accurate: 1,5% per one golden Luck trait. Gold Swift Strike: 2,25% per one golden Luck trait. Silver Swift Strike: 1,5% per one golden Luck trait. 1.5-4.5% per golden trait? 1.5%? What trait is that? Where is balance? I can't see any.
And what good those traits now? Swift Strike 19,5% max using combination of 3 traits? Back to where we were when it was not working?
I personally was unable to play outposts anymore in 2.1 due to almost every outpost being set up as luck-dodge and when I didn't run in to that I took so much damage I could only do one raid every now and then. Seems unfair that part of the game was closed off for some of us. Also luck-dodge seemed more like an exploit than a feature or some great strategy that was developed.
So I have to applaud NG (and @Shteevie) for at least giving me (and I'm sure many many others) a chance to start playing outposts again.
I don't understand your comparison of this game to being a sports fan and I guess the inference that sports teams have events like this referring to rebalancing. I don't see the NFL changing the rules mid season to allow the Cleveland Browns to be more competitive with the New England Patriots. Heck they vote in changes and it requires 2/3 majority of the owners and usually they test rule changes before doing so. I don't see the Premier League rebalancing teams midsession. I just don't see the similarities between this game and sports teams or fans of sports teams or individuals.
I also don't agree with your circular logic that since other games do it it's an acceptable practice. I do agree with there comes a time when changes need to be made to ensure the longevity of the game but I disagree with the means to this end.
I think one of the problems is that no one at NG plays as an end-gamer or even a high level.
They don't understand what it means to spend endless hours (and $) to build a team for specific tactics and then have those changed "for the greater good of the game."
I've spent $500 on this game, several hundred hours too, mostly based around the -00% interrupt tactic because I would see missions kind of like chess and plan moves, now if 100% interrupt only works 30% of the time, it makes all my effort and money spent a total waste. Never been so angry about something like this, I'm usually cest la vie and give developers the benefit of doubt but they were still selling 100% interrupt weapons for real money even though the knew it was changed = fraud.
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Yep now the strategy is like I first played blast the hell out of them with my ranged survivors till they get a couple lvls higher than my survivor then run for the exit no strategy at all . Not a problem when your mindlessly grinding the same supply missions over and over fro rare gear . When I got on forum a talked to and learned how the traits worked together it made the game slot more interesting and let me use melle survivors were now the strategy will be stand way over by the exit and blast from long range then hit the exit great balancing now melle survivors will be useless again without interior amd luck so the blast with hunters BORING avian will be the only viable option
Comments
I typed out and deleted like 5 different replies.
In the interest of being civil all I'm saying is I literally cant even...
If there were a way to leave the offenders alone, we would have. As is, I can now buff the other traits and people will possibly care. I know it's a hard thing to build a new team for a new environment, but I hope you have some fun trying out builds and traits that you previously ignored.
Please note: Development is a fluid process, and suggestions and implementation take time and iteration. Any discussion of future features, deadlines, updates, balance changes, and such should be considered prospective and subject to change.
That doesn't change the fact that all three of these skills were already bottom of the barrel as far as usefulness is concerned, and they got worse with this update.
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We want you to level up more than 1 or 2 teams worth of survivors - which you can do for free.
We want you to experiment with different builds and not throw out any gear without one specific trait - which you can do for free.
We want you to have to put thought into play, and not rely on guaranteed risk-free tactics to proceed - which you can do for free.
Nothing in this update or the last was made with the express purpose to somehow 'force' players to spend money.
Please note: Development is a fluid process, and suggestions and implementation take time and iteration. Any discussion of future features, deadlines, updates, balance changes, and such should be considered prospective and subject to change.
Thanks in advance.
You said the "buffs" will go a long way...I think you added an "s" to the word buff. As far as I can tell from the update notes, only one trait has been buffed: wrestler. EVERYTHING else has been nerfed or stayed the same, but mostly nerfed since the relationship with Lucky.
You also said that "many traits should be used to help to beat high level walkers" (sorry for inexact quote, on my phone)...as it stands, there are ZERO traits useful against walkers 4+ above your survivor level. To say that interruptor was useful on almost every mission is a joke. There is a mission or two on each challenge that may be manipulated with interrupt. I don't understand why the answer to poorly designed maps is to nerf the one trait that was useful against high level walkers. Maybe if you told us the body shot % we should expect against differing levels of walkers, we could believe you when you said we'd still interrupt the enemy "most of the time." If you don't tell us that info, we will just assume interrupt will rarely work when we need it due to the history of our game experiences and body shot %s.
For the players that purchased gear for real $, what # should people be including in their in game support tickets to get their refund? This is the EXACT same situation as Ricks Silenced Pistol, so I'm assuming NG is handling the refunds in the same manner as you did with that situation. Thankfully I'm not in that position (the only upside of keeping the gear level cap is that I won't buy any gear), but that info will be helpful to the users that bought something that has been weakened. I hope NG sends that refund information to ALL USERS, unlike what you did with Ricks pistol and only told forum users so as to avoid accountability to the other 99.9% of players.
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[Sum of all base chances] * (1 + ([sum of all luck]/100))
So 20% * 1.15 = 23%
Now, getting the better base chance is more important than getting only the best luck, which means that the relationship between the two traits is more logical.
Please note: Development is a fluid process, and suggestions and implementation take time and iteration. Any discussion of future features, deadlines, updates, balance changes, and such should be considered prospective and subject to change.
This is pure understatement. The time and money spent working on the many different aspects of playing this game only to have to start anew can hardly be summed up as "hard thing",
You made the good traits worse, yes, that should make other traits more appealing. But much as I agree with the change to interrupt, it made the bad traits worse. So there's still absolutely no incentive to use anything different.
The playerbase does not agree with you that the only way to solve the trait power level issue was by making the good traits worse. There are a number of things that could be done to the bad traits to make them desirable in comparison.
For example, make Defensive Stance allow you to proc retaliate on overwatch. Make vigilant allow a second overwatch shot on a second target rather than just increased damage. And make power strike work on 1ap moves instead of just from a standstill.
Zoson's YouTube | Zoson's Video Vault
That we needed to be careful with quickly writing it off.
However, that was probably the best option. It would allow for another trait to be used instead, And as you mention, it would have given a higher %
I just adapt to whatever is thrown at me
I never used 100% interrupt as my only tactic because I don't care to stick around after a certain level walker shows up
Being that my A team is only level 17, I leave the maps after level 21 walkers show up and my ranged weapons can't take them out easily
Hospital time is cumulative. If one team is out adding another means your wait time goes up to 5 hours, then 7.5 hours to get your players back if yoy fully injur 3 teams. And bruised players have to wait if there are heavy injuries ahead of them. Basically you either shell out a lot of gold on healing or you have to quit at +1 or 2 of your level. This means decreased opportunity to find new gear. Stuck with old nerfed gear. And none of the other traits got better so there really isnt any point in changing anyway.
If you are in disagreement with me in the moment, I completely understand. Whether or not you bought or grinded for your current team, I know that making adjustments is rough. We don't make these changes lightly, and we certainly don't do it to wring money out of players.
Stick around for a week and try the Season 7 stuff. Maybe you'll like the rewards. Try the new challenges. Maybe you'll agree that the effort is more rewarding. There are a lot of traits that are due to be improved, and I'm pretty confident that we can get those out before too long. To go along with other improvements as I have discussed elsewhere on the forums, of course.
Please note: Development is a fluid process, and suggestions and implementation take time and iteration. Any discussion of future features, deadlines, updates, balance changes, and such should be considered prospective and subject to change.
Instead of asking us to be more "creative" in using equipment that no longer represents what was sold to us, why shouldn't we ask NG to be more creative in how you design your challenge maps so that the repeatable challenge missions don't happen. I think any of us who are at a high enough level could tell you within the first minute of playing a challenge mission which ones are repeatable and which ones aren't. If we can tell, why can't NG tell that and solve the problem on your end.
And, I don't think interrupt was a golden ticket that solved all problems. In fact, there are lots of times where you still took damage but it did allow you to come up with creative ways to defeat higher level maps and minimize the damage you took. Saying it will still work at lower levels just shows a basic misunderstanding of the game because at those levels the interrupt never kicks in because you will kill the walker on overwatch. It is exactly at the point where you rely on it (against higher lvl walkers) where the body shots are most likely to occur and, therefore, make it not reliable and therefore likely to go immediately to a struggle when it doesn't work.
Taking 100% interrupt away doesn't make the game more challenging because we will still be able to defeat those maps, it just means we are more likely to spend time in the hospital and play less. That doesn't make the game better in my opinion.
So I was excited about the update and loved it. But then I played and I noticed an enemy didn't get interrupted, I thought maybe this was some kind of glitch so I tried again. Again it happened, this time I saw "interrupt avoided" appear!
So around 85% of my equipment is based on 100% interrupt, I have invested a lot of time and money into this game, now useless. No mention of it in the update notes either and you have continued to sell 100% interrupt weapons, knowing they'd be next to useless - this is fraud, pure and simple.
Maybe if there was an announcement and players were able to choose a different trait for weapons but to just do this thinking we would not notice? It's a disgusting and underhand way to do business. It's a big part of the gameplay too, the whole "end turn" and use of interrupt, especially when doing higher level raids etc.
I did 10 interrupts, 7 of them said "interrupt avoided".
I absolutely loved the update until I saw this, we have a big guild, a YouTube channel etc. too but I don't think I can do business with a company who acts this way, I will reluctantly be requesting a refund from Apple.
There doesn't seem to be any detail about it, the 100% interrupt now seems to be 30% interrupt. I just don't get why you'd do this.
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But I think you're going the wrong way, because we/i have our favorites and we/I want to keep it that way.
Like, every walker level above you would reduce the effectiveness of your trait by 10%
So
Dodge = 60%
level +1 = 54%
+2 = 49%
+3 = 44%
+4 = 40%
+5 = 36%
+6 = 32%
+7 = 29%
At least that way we could get to +7 before we get to the same level as you propose
Interrupt wopuld be 53% at +7. But it would still give us a chance
Dodge: 30% max. 15% average. (35-60% with Luck - fair enough for 3-4 traits together in one build).
Charging: 30% max. 20% silver (40-60% with Luck - fair enough for 3 traits together in one build).
Silenced: 30% max. 20% silver (40-60% with Luck - fair enough for 3 traits together in one build).
Bulletproof: 30% max. 20% silver (40-60% with Luck - fair enough for 3 traits together in one build).
Accurate: 15% max. 10% silver. (20-45% with Luck - fair enough for 2-3 traits together in one build).
Swift Strike: 15% max. 10% silver. (20-45% with Luck - fair enough for 2-3 traits together in one build).
In 2.2 Luck is a [email protected] joke. Now Luck adding to traits nothing:
Gold Dodge: 4.5% per one golden Luck trait. Silver Dodge: 3% per one golden Luck trait.
Gold Charging: 4.5% per one golden Luck trait. Silver Charging: 3% per one golden Luck trait.
Gold Silenced: 4.5% per one golden Luck trait. Silver Charging: 3% per one golden Luck trait.
Gold Bulletproof: 4.5% per one golden Luck trait. Silver Bulletproof: 3% per one golden Luck trait.
Gold Accurate: 2,25% per one golden Luck trait. Silver Accurate: 1,5% per one golden Luck trait.
Gold Swift Strike: 2,25% per one golden Luck trait. Silver Swift Strike: 1,5% per one golden Luck trait.
1.5-4.5% per golden trait? 1.5%? What trait is that? Where is balance? I can't see any.
And what good those traits now? Swift Strike 19,5% max using combination of 3 traits? Back to where we were when it was not working?
What about silver Luck? Additional 1% per trait?
@Teeceezy is it constructive enough for you to answer?
@Shteevie ?
So I have to applaud NG (and @Shteevie) for at least giving me (and I'm sure many many others) a chance to start playing outposts again.
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I also don't agree with your circular logic that since other games do it it's an acceptable practice. I do agree with there comes a time when changes need to be made to ensure the longevity of the game but I disagree with the means to this end.
I think one of the problems is that no one at NG plays as an end-gamer or even a high level.
They don't understand what it means to spend endless hours (and $) to build a team for specific tactics and then have those changed "for the greater good of the game."
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