Why I'm quitting Guild Challenges...

2

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  • JayZJayZ Member Posts: 3,712
    @Shteevie I'd love to participate in such a conversation. I think (and hope) that I've kept most of my posts well-reasoned and constructive.

    I'm sure @DLich would also like to participate. He's done a lot of number crunching about imbalances in the game economy, and how that distorts player incentives.
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  • rgerkmanrgerkman Member Posts: 2,465
    Following....
    awesome thread....
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  • OneLessTitanOneLessTitan Member Posts: 1,273
    @Hershelshead - good job on the radios!! While I wrote that post, I let my gas build up, then raided a few times to guarantee the same # of radios, and didn't have to rely on RNGeezus!!

    @Ipshai -- I level up my survivors and gear so that I have the best stuff available to use when needed. Right now, I don't really need them since I can handle raids with ease. That doesn't mean things won't change in the future, and I want to have the best survivors and gear to use if/when things change, either changes to the game, or changes to my mindset. Until those changes happen, I'm going to prepare the best way I can.

    @MadPuppy -- thanks for emphasizing a crucial point of my post. I'm not trying to change the way anyone plays or diminish anyone's fun! Ive always been kind of an outlier, so what most people enjoy doesn't usually have the same impact on me.

    I agree that playing raids is a more time consuming grind, but it's the grind that I enjoy the most at the moment since making radio calls is my favorite part of the game, and i can get the most radio calls by playing raids.
    Conan1976Top8dog
  • numennumen Member Posts: 32
    I'm fairly new to the game (only level 13), so I really appreciate posts like this. I'm with MadPuppy; I'm starting to get addicted to radio calls. I need more traits!

    I also like the scout rush to TG, but one of the most fun parts to me is facing off in outpost missions and seeing if I can stun the defense and come out unscathed. Big cost in terms of hospital time, but it's great as a last action for the day.

    Is it a late-game feature that TG for radios are more important? Right now I'm XP limited and should really be spending my time in the exploration missions!
    MizTy
  • lmfgunnutlmfgunnut Member Posts: 1,636
    @OneLessTitan I did not read the full thread, just your main post and a few of the responses. I just wanted to point out that if you use your TG for anything other than radios, such as the epic/legendary gear you pointed out, your value proposition per gas unit expressed in terms of radios per gas goes way, way down. Though I've not run the numbers, you may find that the advantage outposts have over challenges is less exaggerated than it looks at first blush.

    I'm not advocating any particular style of play, but for those that want it all, it is likely they will find the best possible course to be a blend of multiple mission types. If radios is the only thing of import, your numbers seem to support the case for outpost, but when you expand your appetite to gold, gear etc, it will definitely cause a dilution in effectiveness.
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  • DLichDLich Member Posts: 5,541
    Using the chart here I did a cost of gas to TG ratio regarding playing one individual challenge map.

    to play from RSL 3 to RSL 19 (where you would assume you would start earning level appropriate gear) would require you to play 16 challenge maps before getting to the "good stuff". Assuming 3 stars on each time the map is played, you'd walk into RSL 19 having spent 68 gas, waiting 8 hours and earned 48 stars.

    48 stars would have earned TG's at these levels (6 earning 400; 15 earning 425; 30 earning 450; 45 earning 475) for a total of 1,750 TG's in the process. At this point, RSL 19 is costing 6 gas a mission. RSL 19-24 all costs 6 gas each and you aren't guaranteed any silver or gold crates & not guaranteed any decent drops of usable equipment (epic or legendary).

    The 68 gas you spend on challenges over an 8 hour period to get to "usable drops"; let's suppose you spent them on playing outposts. Now not everyone has lvl 20 survivors, but for this example I'm going to use lvl 20 survivors as an example.

    68 gas can allow you to play 34 outposts maps. Assuming 2 out of every 3 you can get the TG crate without any injurey (and assuming the one's that you can't reach the TG crate without injury so you "complete" the map prior to the end of your turn) would allow for 23 (rounded) successful TG runs. Each run ranges between 350-550 so we'll use 450 as an average of sorts.

    450 TG's per run x 23 runs = 10,350 TG's. Since gas replenishes every 10 minutes it's possible to use 68 gas worth (assuming a tank of 23 gas) in 7.5 hours (slightly less than it would take you in challenges). Of course if you have a successful run more than 2 out of every 3 outposts you'll make even more.

    So in conclusion -

    68 Gas can be used to play 16 individual challenge maps netting you 48 stars and 1,750 TG's in an 8 hour span

    OR

    68 Gas can be used to play 34 outpost maps netting you an average of 10,350 TG's in a 7.5 hour span

    These numbers assume not buying gas boosters (because if someone did buy a gas booster they wouldn't care and playing challenges especially at low levels is "free TG's" while waiting for a cool down. As truly free players not buying gas boosters it's clear to get TG's is more beneficial to play outposts.

    I like that there are more TG rewards at closer levels but gas to tg ratio is better in outposts. Also XP to TG ratio is better in outposts since you're looking at around 10K XP per outpost regardless if you get the crate or not. I'd estimate to say that anything prior to RSL 10 would pay less than 10K TG's even with opening the crates.

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  • OneLessTitanOneLessTitan Member Posts: 1,273
    @lmfgunnut - I'm not sure if we're talking about similar things, or a misinterpretation of what I posted, so I'll address what I think your talking about.

    I only factored in radios to compensate for what you lose out on by participating in challenges, from expected crate rewards and team guild rewards. The total TG difference (the column with the red and green highlights), is the #of extra Trade Goods you have to spend on anything you choose. Using myself as an example, I could easily get 360 stars, which accounts for about 82,000 extra trade goods to spend by using my gas on raids vs challenges (assuming I buy the equivalent radios lost from playing challenges in the Trade Good store). With those extra Trade Goods, I could buy 9 or 10 legendary gear crates, plus every token available in the store. I think that's significantly more better gear than I could get from those few high level challenge missions.

    Sorry if that's not what you were talking about!
  • Japes87Japes87 Member Posts: 1,399
    edited November 2016
    @DLich good number crunching .. don't forget about gas drops in challenge crates and cinema gas though , those have to change the numbers quite a bit as well , although tough to average out .
    DLichMarkTop8dog
  • NerfMeSidewaysNerfMeSideways Member Posts: 211
    @Shteevie I've posted some of these in another thread of yours and I believe my ideas will fit well here as well so here goes:

    1) Not allow low-level survivors to enter into high level (this can be a certain level is required to enter into map).. there are plenty of games that have such a criteria to enter into dungeons.
    2) This may be controversial; but have the leaderboard restart much like the outpost leaderboards (could have a lifetime score tally but the global top 50 leaderboard would follow a 14 days and wiped cleaned strategdy similar to outpost).
    3) More interactive or puzzles within maps for challenges (I really liked those maps where we had to finish under 7 turns), but would like to see interactive items within the challenge maps.
    4) Still having the low level grind combined with the rebalancing makes everything hard to digest right now. There is no happy medium right now for some players it seems. I believe you are working on the walkers in your challenge revamping thread?
    5) Progress has been made with endless repeatables and believe there is still room for improvement.
    6) Agree that the rewards need to be visited and improved dramatically for guild challenges.
    7) Outpost: I like looting but full blown fighting is not worth it for me unless we have something like the event we had the last weekend with decreased healing. Healing costs are too high for me.

    Suggestion: Ok one idea I've been thinking about is to have trait boosters enhanced. For example: You choose your team of survivors to bring into challenge or mission, and you are given an option to choose a trait booster for all or a survivor you choose at a gold cost - this can be for a extra 10% damage, or 10% critical, or assault stun is for 2 rounds, or does an extra bonus attack not counting against your AP.... bring in revenue for NG and gives us more options to go APE crazy if you really wanted to -- BITCHNUTZ


    Thanks in advance... I will be following this thread!
    Mark
  • DaleDale Member Posts: 1,122
    I like my guild and the radios I get there. My guild mates keep me interested. Without them, I wouldn't even play some days.
    InspTurbinesTop8dog
  • DLichDLich Member Posts: 5,541
    Challenges use RNG to find things needed and literally 408 gas is needed in total to bring each challenge map to "sought after" RSL for the CHANCE to get drops you need.

    Using @OneLessTitan math you can buy several 12.5K TG crates playing outposts and guaranteed to get the item you need (traits are a different story) that's Lvl 20 gear.

    I've always known outposts were better to get TG's its just seeing the math in your face that really nails it home.

    I'll still get as many stars for my guild as I can since I do buy 1 $2 gas booster a week but damn as a FTP guilds TG's aren't in comparison to outpost TG's in the least

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  • kryptonixkryptonix Member Posts: 253
    Staggering numbers indeed here, thanks for putting these together. Given what you compiled, any thoughts on what could be done to even it out? Less gas for challenges seems top of mind but how much is needed for it to be reduced to an equal level?
  • DLichDLich Member Posts: 5,541
    @kryptonix I fear the opposite will happen.

    Upon NG seeing these numbers (which they probably already know) they'll lower the amount of TG's given in raids.

    One day we'll wake up and it'll be 200 TG per raid. Sadly I don't think they'll "buff" challenges" but rather will "nerf" outposts.

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  • DLichDLich Member Posts: 5,541
    Or miracuosly outposts will become a "team" event in which similar to challenges were cast against other alliances somehow.

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  • MadPuppyMadPuppy Member Posts: 2,831
    @OneLessTitan
    Maybe i will argue against your conclusion after all.
    Ive been playing the game with this thread in mind realising that for the past month ive been buying every phone available in the tg store.

    So no matter how many phones that store could theoretically give me i already have them all.

    Add to that the phones i got from crates and challenges and i actually got more phones.

    So at least from the phones perspective with my all round gaming the results were much better than with 100% raiding. The latter would have given me huge surplus TG.

    Thoughts?
    Top8dog
  • kryptonixkryptonix Member Posts: 253
    That 9th paragraph has me a little giddy!
    Top8dogMizTyWeekOne
  • DLichDLich Member Posts: 5,541
    @Shteevie you are awesome with your words man.

    I agree everyone should play the way they want. There's a lot of fun in challenges and by no means did I mean to imply otherwise.

    Facts are facts. TG to gas ratio is best via outposts. Always have been. I just hope there's never a "restructure" (i.e. Making gas costs more for Outposts or lowering TG's earned from outposts, or raising the price of items in the TG shop) that affects outposts directly as a means to level the playing field.

    I'll give credit to the increase in rewards via challenges. It's like explaining to someone who doesn't have kids what it's like bring a parent. I would never go back to my life before my kids. I can't imagine life before them.

    What I mean by this is people who enjoy challenges will always enjoy them. Seeing that more TG's are earned in outposts shouldn't phase people regarding their enjoyment of playing.

    It's a difference of opinion yes, but both are still valid and no ones gonna change the others opinion (much like politics) lol.

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  • blynknzblynknz Member Posts: 1,988
    edited November 2016
    Shteevie said:

    Man, I didn't intend to write a manifesto.

    Sincere apologies if I derail the thread or piss anyone off . That was not at all the intent. Being open and honest about intentions and methodologies so as to foster trust and communication was the intent. If necessary, I reserve the right to move / delete that post if it ends up causing problems.

    I think we need @Teeceezy to add a TL;DR button ;)
    Top8dogMadPuppySCBMA
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