Struggle trait?

HershelsheadHershelshead Member Posts: 126
It doesn't make sense to me
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  • MizTyMizTy Member Posts: 1,335
  • NerfMeSidewaysNerfMeSideways Member Posts: 211
    edited November 2016
    I agree @Hershelshead you can't survive a second hit. It felt more realistic and was more exciting before as you could get into more than one struggle to win a map. That felt more like something that was in line with TWD vs what it is now.

    @Shteevie any thoughts?
    SCBMAMizTy
  • ShteevieShteevie Staff Posts: 1,335
    I'm a little conflicted on this one. Getting into a struggle should guarantee a heavy injury, I feel - it's the way we say in the game "you were this || close to death". So the fact that it didn't work that way before indicates that the struggle mechanics might not have been working as intended. The struggle only happens if the damage you take from the hit is going to put you in a state of injury.

    I agree that it's not a great trait for over-level challenge missions, if you only care about getting three star results, but I think that the 1-star wins are better than the 0-star losses. If the timer is the big deal, you could choose to flee and pick the struggling survivor for the penalty. [It wouldn't really be a penalty at all, since they were already guaranteed a heavy injury at that point.]

    The way it's described in the thread almost makes me think people will go looking for struggles as ways to kill walkers over their level, and to effectively 'stun' that walker for a couple of turns, since they cannot attack and deal damage while the struggle in ongoing [and real]. That's not the intent here. We want to give you a last-ditch way out of a bad jam; not a potential cheap kill.
    Development Team Member - The Walking Dead: No Man's Land
    Please note: Development is a fluid process, and suggestions and implementation take time and iteration. Any discussion of future features, deadlines, updates, balance changes, and such should be considered prospective and subject to change.
    MizTyCaptainslayer
  • rgerkmanrgerkman Member Posts: 2,465
    I say get rid of it @Shteevie & replace it with Walker Guts !!!
    Even if Walker Guts only works 40% of the time lol it still be better :wink: :joy:
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  • Neil_JNeil_J Member Posts: 1,873
    edited November 2016
    rgerkman said:

    I say get rid of it @Shteevie & replace it with Walker Guts !!!

    Even if Walker Guts only works 40% of the time lol it still be better :wink::joy:

    ©@Neil_J if it happens! ;)
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  • CaptainslayerCaptainslayer Member Posts: 1,399
    That's a brilliant idea it would make the wrestler trait at least desirable @Hershelshead
    @Shteevie you do raise a good point there I think the majority wouldn't go out on purpose and do what you described but the ones that repeat challenges they probably would it would be cool if you could implement this though as the repeaters don't really bother most ppl I think
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  • NerfMeSidewaysNerfMeSideways Member Posts: 211
    @Shteevie I am not a fan of the instant kill we get with the wrestler trait.

    I understand if what was happening before wasn't intended and you needed to make some changes... I remember being in a struggle for 4-6 turns and that was a thrill to me because I didn't know if I was going to make it out alive or not.

    Right now, it's a guaranteed "get out of struggle and kill whatever walker is in front of you irregardless of the walker level" which is cool but not as fun imo.

    Thanks for reading!
  • ShteevieShteevie Staff Posts: 1,335
    I like the idea of using the alternate objectives more. When we did it with Grenadier, there was a lot of confusion and many extra support tickets, so we'd need to be careful with it. The playerbase in general has a very strong expectation that the objectives will always be the same. This would be doubly so if we changed the objectives for older challenge missions, but I'll ask the content designers what they think.

    However, it is true that 'auto-struggle' situations cost you 2 stars instantly, and that feels harsh. I'm okay with people using wrestler in the way that is described, but the problem comes from it being reliable enough that it becomes part of a 'standard' strategy. You are in many cases hinging your success or failure on the die roll related to the wrestler trait, which will be frustrating for a lot of people.

    It's definitely a balancing act, and feedback like this really helps us dial it in to find a point that everyone enjoys. Thanks again for participating in discussions like this.
    Development Team Member - The Walking Dead: No Man's Land
    Please note: Development is a fluid process, and suggestions and implementation take time and iteration. Any discussion of future features, deadlines, updates, balance changes, and such should be considered prospective and subject to change.
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  • MizTyMizTy Member Posts: 1,335
    I'm sorry to hear there were a lot of support tickets generated by changing up the Challenge objectives but I don't think that should keep NG from doing it again. The Challenges had gotten/continue to be stale. So much so that ppl had even stopped reading the objectives before a new mission. (However, the addition of a turn counter would have helped highlight these changes.)

    We need more strategies that can work against high level walkers. The Wrestler trait deserves a chance to be more useful. Changing up Challenge Objectives helps make it a less crappy trait. It also makes the same ole challenges less old and more olé. It seems a simple decision to me. Implementation however may prove trickier ;)
    JayZSCBMA
  • jimmorrison369jimmorrison369 Member Posts: 1,931
    edited November 2016
    About the support tickets for changing mission objectives.

    I'm pretty sure that is not a reason to not change anything ever again, right?
    Just make sure that every player is confronted with the changes before they find out by playing the missions.

    Back then there was no notification of objectives being changed. Objectives where always the same before, so nobody looked at it.
    IMO, that was the real reason why some people didn't notice it at first and got confused.
    SCBMAggbatsPigMizTy
  • JayZJayZ Member Posts: 3,236
    Just want to second everything @MizTy said.

    @Shteevie I can see how people might be confused by new objectives. I didn't notice a thing until someone pointed it out on the forums. One very simple/easy way to preempt the support tickets and raise gamer awareness is to post an in-game announcement when challenges begin to notify people that the objectives might be different.

    Also, would it be helpful to you if people helped brainstorm different ways of earning stars (e.g., completing the mission in 7 or less turns in the Grenadier challenge)? I don't have any bright ideas right now, but I'm sure people on the forum would gladly come up with some creative things if you asked for their feedback.
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  • ShteevieShteevie Staff Posts: 1,335
    edited November 2016

    I'm pretty sure that is not a reason to not change anything ever again, right?

    -No, but it does mean that a) we need to be extremely clear when we change them with player messaging, as you and others have pointed out, b) We might want to look at in-game UI to support these new objectives, and c) we need to be extra careful changing the objectives for challenges we have used before, because the expectations will be even stronger there.

    Given that the next major update after 2.3 will probably have the Challenge Rework in it, I think we'll be able to add this idea on to the 'stretch goals' section of that task list. If people have cool ideas about alternate objectives, I'm all ears.
    Development Team Member - The Walking Dead: No Man's Land
    Please note: Development is a fluid process, and suggestions and implementation take time and iteration. Any discussion of future features, deadlines, updates, balance changes, and such should be considered prospective and subject to change.
    MizTyWeekOnejimmorrison369Survivor420
  • MizTyMizTy Member Posts: 1,335
    @Shteevie
    Mission accepted :)
    _NoNameSCBMAggbats
  • WeekOneWeekOne Member Posts: 1,195
    Shteevie said:


    Given that the next major update after 2.3 will probably have the Challenge Rework in it, I think we'll be able to add this idea on to the 'stretch goals' section of that task list. If people have cool ideas about alternate objectives, I'm all ears.

    Yes... thank you @Shteevie :smiley:

    I will share with my team and hopefully have some cool ideas for you. Grenadier Challenge was refreshing for me.. since then I've been reading all the objectives to make sure y'all didn't throw us a curve ball and that is fun to me. The challenges have become kind of boring that way so I'm always looking for something fresh.

    I, too, will accept this mission with @MizTy >:)

    MizTy
  • Eire1916Eire1916 Member Posts: 15
    Why no charge points or xp from a struggle kill ?
  • jimmorrison369jimmorrison369 Member Posts: 1,931
    Mortmer said:

    @MadPuppy Just tried again with Gold Wrestler and died after a struggle, again. Watching my survivor appeared to win the struggles, the walker fell down then my survivor rocked back and forth a few times and defeat.

    The funny thing is, after the zombie dies, my survivor's name goes green on the left side of the screen, which I thought meant it was my turn and then he dies.

    @Shteevie
    When doing a 1 survivor mission. And you use a survivor that has the wrestler trait.
    Shouldn't you be able to continue the mission when your survivor wins the struggle?
    MortmerMizTy
  • kscarlett5683kscarlett5683 Member Posts: 18
    edited December 2016
    OOPS This post is on the wrong thread. I meant it to be on the Episode 7 (Michonne) thread.

    Please help!!! I'm having an issue. I'm using an Epic Level 17 Daryl with a gold wide caliber weapon. I am on trial #5. There will be a group of walkers in a row. I will shoot them and the everyone dies *except the one closest to me, who shows zero damage. Then that walker comes at me.

    I've never seen this happen before this trial. This is frustrating because that's why I get injured and die.

    And, also, btw, I also seemingly "survive" a wrestle and then seem to continue to wrestle nothing after the walker goes down and then I die. Is this also a bug?
    Mortmer
  • Squall_NMLSquall_NML Member Posts: 737
    @kscarlett5683
    Maybe it was. I had difficult times to clear it too and also experienced your position. I replaced gear/armor with health trait, then success :)
    kscarlett5683
  • JayZJayZ Member Posts: 3,236
    @Shteevie Want to second @jimmorrison369's question. It seems like this is exactly the situation where the Wrestler trait would be very useful (because let's face it... it has very limited utility in 99% of other missions except for maybe the Story missions). Any thoughts?
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  • ShteevieShteevie Staff Posts: 1,335
    edited December 2016
    @JayZ and @jimmorrison369:

    When all of the members of your team are in a struggle, this causes a mission loss. Since some of the Season 7 episodes only have one team member, that means any struggle causes a loss. Whether or not the player has Wrestler doesn't come into it.

    Of course, the point of Wrestler is to help you win situations you might otherwise lose, but with only one character, this could lead to people using Wrestler 'offensively', in order to try to clear these missions with lower-leveled characters, which is not something we want. It might lead to players trying the mission umpteen number of times, and relying on the die roll to win the mission for them, rather than engaging the enemies head-on. Therefore, we need to allow the "All Struggle moment" to remain a loss condition.
    Development Team Member - The Walking Dead: No Man's Land
    Please note: Development is a fluid process, and suggestions and implementation take time and iteration. Any discussion of future features, deadlines, updates, balance changes, and such should be considered prospective and subject to change.
    MizTyBarcodeJ
  • bigbeanobigbeano Member Posts: 602
    This trait was much better before the updates!Go back 2 that or replace it IMO.
  • PigPig Member Posts: 1,870
    Shteevie said:

    Of course, the point of Wrestler is to help you win situations you might otherwise lose, but with only one character, this could lead to people using Wrestler 'offensively', in order to try to clear these missions with lower-leveled characters, which is not something we want. It might lead to players trying the mission umpteen number of times, and relying on the die roll to win the mission for them, rather than engaging the enemies head-on.

    Is there likely to be a mission in which we only have one character and only face one walker? I can't see any other way a low level survivor could possibly abuse Wrestler to clear high level missions. How will the low level character kill all the other walkers after getting lucky and killing one with Wrestler?

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  • jimmorrison369jimmorrison369 Member Posts: 1,931
    Shteevie said:

    only have one team member, that means any struggle causes a loss. Whether or not the player has Wrestler doesn't come into it.

    I was hoping it was a bug :(

    MizTy
  • MortmerMortmer Member Posts: 167
    @Shteevie It was suggested I post here about the issues I am having with the Last man Standing challenge this week.

    I am using fully trained lvl 20 survivors (warriors, assaults and hunters). Every single time I get in a struggle on any of these missions my survivor dies. It doesn't matter if they have full health or partial health. I have watched my survivor be engaged in a struggle, win the struggle (the zombie falls down), seen the survivor's name go green and the white circle appear around their feet again as they continue to dance around as if they are still in the struggle and the defeat message appears. I've had this happen probably 20 times now.

    Something appears to be broken and Sisu isn't gonna pull my survivors through this. ;)
    JayZjimmorrison369
  • jimmorrison369jimmorrison369 Member Posts: 1,931
    Lol. He answered it
  • MizTyMizTy Member Posts: 1,335
    @Shteevie
    I'm dissatisfied with your position on the Wrestler trait. Is there any chance we can change your mind? And more importantly, is there any chance we can get NG to change the trait so that it's more useful?

    NML fans are looking for new builds and new strategies. We need your help! o:)
    jimmorrison369javajnkie
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