Vigilant Upon Promotion

So the last 10-12 survivors that I promoted from epic to legendary all received vigilant as the 5th trait. What is up with this? Is my RNG that bad? All of them had 4 "perfect" traits and I was trying to get that 5th one, but without fail it's vigilant every time. I don't expect to always the get the trait I want but this is ridiculous.


  • NathanielNathaniel Member Posts: 14
    They receive vigilant or defensive stance exclusively. Hoard your tokens for better days
  • JayZJayZ Member Posts: 3,709
    Pics or it didn't happen!
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  • crambert_neccrambert_nec Member Posts: 1,376
    @JayZ These are all I have left. I've scrapped the others in order to try again with these guys.
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  • JayZJayZ Member Posts: 3,709
    @crambert_nec you weren't kidding. Yikes, sorry bud. Maybe I'll hold off on promoting some of my guys...
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  • crambert_neccrambert_nec Member Posts: 1,376
    @JayZ I did get lucky (pun intended) with this guy awhile back though!
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  • MonsutaMonsuta Member Posts: 1,168
    I got one too:

    Look on the bright side, at least it's better than Defensive Stance.
    It's suck when you only got 25% token back for scrapping them.
  • RoosRoos Member Posts: 24
    Hi! Have also seen thease two traits often. Last 9 promotions gave me 6 vigilant and one ds. Maby just a bad luck.
  • BttlOpenerBttlOpener Member Posts: 989

    Those traits are a pretty good build for an outpost survivor. A weapon a combination of lethal, luck, accurate or destructive (especially with luck, accurate and destructive stacked together) is best. Armor with bulletproof, health boost and iron skin would be optimal.
  • NCDawgFanNCDawgFan Member Posts: 2,070
    Additional health is useless at the higher levels.
  • GrimGaelGrimGael Member Posts: 1,410
    I rarely see defenders use any overwatch attacks. When the ranged ones bust my scout sneaking in is about it, and that's always my fault. Seems when it's on, it's a toe-to-toe slugfest. I'd never choose to have an overwatch-based survivor in an outhouse.
  • GrimGaelGrimGael Member Posts: 1,410
    Same with all of the "if you haven't moved ones" I see that sometimes, but also a lot of maneuvering, over half usually.
  • Mais88Mais88 Member Posts: 348
    The last 3 I promoted all received Vigilant also.
  • crambert_neccrambert_nec Member Posts: 1,376
    Yeah, I'm not convinced it's an equal % chance to get any of the remaining traits when promoting survivors. Going from epic to legendary, melee survivors have 5 possible remaining skills and ranged survivors have 4. That should be a 20% or 25% chance at any of those skills, respectively. My results and all of the results I've seen on these forums makes it seem otherwise.
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  • timflo83xtimflo83x Member Posts: 88
    I have an epic hunter with vigilant and defense watch, so I'll be safe upgrading! So I think.....She also has bullet dodge and luck, so hoping for normal luck or marksman.
  • crambert_neccrambert_nec Member Posts: 1,376
    @timflo83x Personally, I would wait for better traits to invest tokens into. Vigilant and Defensive Stance are arguably the two worst traits.
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  • DarkZeroDarkZero Member Posts: 339

    Vigilant and Defensive Stance are arguably the two worst traits.

    No arguing required :D
    Voilà! In view, a humble vaudevillian veteran cast vicariously as both victim and villain by the vicissitudes of Fate. This visage, no mere veneer of vanity, is a vestige of the vox populi, now vacant, vanished. However, this valorous visitation of a bygone vexation stands vivified and has vowed to vanquish these venal and virulent vermin vanguarding vice and vouchsafing the violently vicious and voracious violation of volition! The only verdict is vengeance; a vendetta held as a votive, not in vain, for the value and veracity of such shall one day vindicate the vigilant and the virtuous. Verily, this vichyssoise of verbiage veers most verbose, so let me simply add that it's my very good honor to meet you and you may call me DZ.
  • timflo83xtimflo83x Member Posts: 88
    @crambert_nec true, but my only other hunter with bullet dodge is in outpost. Want to keep another one for challenges with freemen.
  • GladiGladi Member Posts: 616
    My last 5 promotions were vigilant or DS. I doubt this is purely RNG.
  • BttlOpenerBttlOpener Member Posts: 989
    @GrimGael I will have to defer to your experiences. I do not have my outpost set up and apparently misunderstood how those traits worked in the outpost. This is most disappointing, considering I have survivors who I was going to upgrade specifically for when I set up my outpost. @Shteevie Do these non movement traits work as advertised in the outposts?
  • ShteevieShteevie Staff Posts: 1,335
    So, let's take a look at this a second:
    There are 11 survivor traits. Of those, 2 or 3 are unavailable to a particular survivor because of their class [Bruisers aren't eligible for Marksman, for example]. You have already self-selected for the first 4 traits when you were discarding Epic characters that didn't have your perfect mix. That means that for the 5th slot, there are (11-3-4 = 4) 4 possible traits that you would reveal. Of these, you have a strong desire to not get at least 2 of them. But we're not just looking at "how many survivors won't have DS in the 5th slot"; we're looking for "how many survivors who don't have DS in the first 4 slots will not have it in the 5th slot". To find the actual chances, you have to first determine the odds that a survivor doesn't have any of your least-favorite traits in their first 4 slots, and then the odds that some of those survivors will have these traits instead in the 5th slot.

    My guess is that those will come out to be something like a 70% or more chance that the kinds of things people are reporting here will happen. It's not so much the RNG directly, but rather the laws of probability that have already had an effect on setting up the moment of randomness that everyone is focused on. And remember, a properly-executed RNG doesn't take the results of any past events into account, so while you can say that the odds are in a certain range, there is never a guarantee that any future event will or won't occur.

    Now seems like a good idea to ask for opinions: would you like to see more survivor traits? Adding them would reduce the chances that you get DS in the 5th slot, but also the chances that you will get the traits you want in any slot. Would you be willing to start over with some classes if a trait were so good that you wanted your best-in-class to have it? Let me know; your opinions are useful for planning purposes.

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  • Marcus6253Marcus6253 Member Posts: 221
    I'm not sure why all the hate for vigilant; I have it on my scout and it has been a life saver, especially against fatties and armored walkers. When I find a fattie more than two spaces away I shoot it with the hunter and assault and they nearly kill it. I then move my scout in front of those two and when the fattie attacks the scout kills it with an overwatch attack boosted by vigilant. If I have my scout attack the fattie directly she is left defenseless in a herd of normals that end up causing bruises.
  • GrimGaelGrimGael Member Posts: 1,410
    @Shteevie no, please no. There is this thread about vagilent, and another equally long and hateful about defective stance. The history is against it. Most of the overwatch/do not move traits that seem to be a big hit with your team can be made useful (or less useless, depending on player opinion, playstyle, phase of moon, etc) with direct control but seem to be made useless in outposts under AI control. I assume so, because I see a lot of maneuvering for position by AI defenders. Stationary is the only way to take advantage of them. You just gave a dissertation about subsets, so you must know how small the subset of survivors for which stationary is beneficial in outpost. Which in turn makes a large subset of survivors which are disadvantaged by them for outpost defense and active maneuvering in the presence of threat (required in almost every scenario at least a bit for each survivor)
    So perhaps more quality of life adjustments on square one before square two.
  • crambert_neccrambert_nec Member Posts: 1,376
    edited December 2016
    @Shteevie I see what you're saying about the %'s including the previous 4 traits that were unlocked, but shouldn't this also be the case for the other traits besides Vig and DS that I have a possibility of unlocking? If my first 4 traits don't include Defensive Stance or Iron Skin, shouldn't there still be an equal probability of receiving either of those for a 5th trait? By your probability laws it should apply to all the possible traits. Now I'm not the best with probability and statistics and stuff, so maybe I'm way off here, but there just seems to be some irregularities regarding the probabilities of the remaining trait pool evidenced by everything I've seen on these forums regarding promotion.

    Personally, I wouldn't like more traits. As you can see I've already invested a lot of tokens for some less than desirable trait mixes. 610-730 tokens (epic -> leg promotion) is a lot to invest for a random trait, so by making the trait pool larger it only complicates this process further. It would be cool if there was a way to know what trait you were going to unlock before blowing hundreds of tokens, but I can see how that takes the "fun" out of things.
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  • GrimGaelGrimGael Member Posts: 1,410
    His statement is accurate from the viewpoint of the first raw radio pull, whatever.
    I'm a conspiracy nut but I doubt there is anything shady here.
    From a non-mathmatical viewpoint, we regard these two traits as unfavorable. When they occur, our brains mark them as highly significant. I personally did not post a hunter who received the fifth perfect trait. I didn't overly notice a promotion that garnered a trait I feel neutral about. Etc. These events are out of proportion in our awareness, and if you add in a few genuine runs of "bad luck" the pebble looks like a boulder.
  • JayZJayZ Member Posts: 3,709
    Is it possible that there's some kind of a bias towards remembering only promotions where you get crappy traits? For example, for every post about Vigilant and Defensive Stance, there are probably many promotions that unlock useful traits. However, crappy events are usually more memorable than good events (which is why the media sensationalizes death, disease, etc. while infrequently reporting on good things that are happening).

    Here is my track record with promotions:
    - Assault: D Stance (others: Iron Skin, Luck, Dodge, Bullet Dodge)
    - Warrior: Vigilant (others: Strong, Luck, Dodge, Bullet Dodge)
    - Bruiser: Vigilant (others: Strong, Luck, Dodge, Bullet Dodge)
    - Bruiser: Power Stance (others: Iron Skin, Strong, Dodge, Retaliate)
    - Hunter: Sure Shot (others: Iron Skin, Marksman, Luck, Dodge)
    - Hunter: Vigilant (others: Iron Skin, Marksman, Luck, Dodge)
    - Shooter: Sure Shot (others: Marksman, Luck, Dodge, Bullet Dodge)

    Obviously very happy with my two Sure Shot promotions, but it's the other ones that stand out to me and sting the most (why couldn't my Warrior and Bruiser get Retaliate instead of Vigilant?!)
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  • GrimGaelGrimGael Member Posts: 1,410
    Exactly what I was saying above, @JayZ
    I present the story of 3 brothers, amazing epic pulls--all around the same time with identical traits.
    On promotion, Christo got the exact trait I was hoping to get. I did not take to the forums to commiserate.
    On promotion, Lestat got sureshot. I know, sought after--but neutral to me. After all: they walk, we run.
    Tallahassee awaits his fate. Will I be insanely lucky and have him twin Christo? Will he twin Lestat? Or will his shame be displayed in one of those two threads? Only the fates know.
  • JayZJayZ Member Posts: 3,709
    @GrimGael Haha, even though it looks like I was copying you, I had arrived at that conclusion on my own. I must have been typing when you posted right above me. Looks like great minds think alike!

    As @Shteevie said, the probability of getting DS or V with a ranged survivor is about 50% (if you don't already have those traits), so it's entirely possible that (A) RNG can screw someone over, or (B) the "good" fifth traits from some promotions might not be front of mind to some people.

    I don't know what to say about @crambert_nec's streak of nearly a dozen w/ Vigilant... you must have really done something to upset the RNG gods.
    Proud member of Mavericks OG, a top 3 global GW and challenge guild.
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  • bigbeanobigbeano Member Posts: 602
    I agree that these 2 traits don't really have a WOW factor,but,my assault and bruiser with them both are useful on crowded maps sometimes.
  • DisaliveDisalive Member Posts: 58
    @JayZ If that was only about remembering...
    I did two upgrades one day, both ended up with Defective stance, which resulted in abandoning the game for like 3 weeks. The others i dont remember because they never happened.
    It's not so easy to collect 730 tokens for a regular player to try your *nerfed* luck every now and then, especially that you need to get the perfect epic survivor first.

    If majority agrees certain traits are useless or very situational, I believe it would be fair to decrease the chance of getting them upon promotion by half.
    As for the defective stance and power strike - I see them completely useless, Vigilant - might be good in under 10% of situations.

    Also, would like to mention Silenced, which creeps its way into 80% of my rifles from TG shops. It's extremely situational, but somehow seems to have the highest chance... together with Interrupt (after nerf ofc).
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