Weapon leveling system

For everyone complaining about the level cap especially as it pertains to weapons, Teeceezy has already acknowledged this in another post. While they haven't proposed a solution, I'm sure they're thinking about it. Maybe more than just complaining (which I know isn't completely pointless either as it brings the problem up to the attention of the developers), what about thoughts for a solution? I know there have been several comments about this as well in other posts, but I wanted to consolidate the thoughts here for most of the ones I've seen:

1. Remove weapon level limits. I suppose the max level would simply be tied to the Workshop level then. The main problem with this is how are minimum requirements for equipping the weapons established? Example: Would you be able to take a lvl 1 weapon, upgrade it to lvl 24 and still equip it on that lvl 1 survivor? It may not be a huge issue, but there may be some room for exploiting a mechanic like this.
2. Allow purchased weapons to be leveled. Lots of suggestions on how to do this as well.
2a. "Bump" (free upgrade) the current level of weapons with the update.
2b. Pay a small fee (relative to the original cost) to upgrade existing purchases.
2c. "Hero" weapons. One suggestion that I haven't really seen yet (or at least fully fleshed out) is creating a separate class of weapons--call it hero, premium, exclusive, whatever. No these "hero" weapon would not take tokens to unlock/upgrade, but would exist along the current weapon system (fixed level + up to 3 upgrades) and still be able to incorporate the unfixed limit system of idea #1.
3. Weapon token system. I saw this in a post that suggested being able to trade in some form of new token system for enhancing current weapons, but I didn't examine it well enough and saw some counter-arguments against introducing yet another type of currency into the game. If anyone would want to elaborate on this, please do.
4. Leave existing system as is and don't introduce new levels so current game can be considered "end-game" (in favor of adding new content at existing level). It may be too late to hope for this as the new update already announces the increased caps.

If anyone has any new thoughts, please bring them up! I think it may be a good idea to do a poll afterwards to see where the pulse of the community is at.
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Comments

  • feracolyteferacolyte Member Posts: 163
    i say just make it cost an exorbitant amount of exp to raise a base level 20 maxed out at 23 to 24. that way it's still a grind and progression but it doesn't instantly make all of our level 20 legendaries go straight to the scrap pile
    gespuerHeadshotcrambert_nec
  • TJCartTJCart Member Posts: 412

    i say just make it cost an exorbitant amount of exp to raise a base level 20 maxed out at 23 to 24. that way it's still a grind and progression but it doesn't instantly make all of our level 20 legendaries go straight to the scrap pile

    But how would you implement that? Are you saying just add +4 upgrades to every weapon? Base lvl 21 weapons would go to 25 then. What about for base level weapons 19 and below? What happens when council 21 rolls around, are your current base 20 weapons useless again?
  • JayZJayZ Member Posts: 3,740
    One other possibility is a weapons trade-in system where you trade in legendary equipment to upgrade the base level of a fully upgraded item. For example, if you want to upgrade the base level of a level 20 legendary item to level 21, then you have to trade in 10 level 21 legendary items, and you don't get any XP for doing so.

    This allows people to upgrade their existing items, but at a pretty steep cost (which might be worth it if it's a unique item like Morgan's Staff, or if it just has the perfect combination of traits).
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  • feracolyteferacolyte Member Posts: 163
    usually the upgrade would grant you unlocked traits in addition to the power boost but in this case it would only affect base damage. that way if you're happy with the trait set your gear has and you're willing to invest in it, you can spend extra exp to bump the damage.

    not suggesting you increase the upgrade to 4 upgrades per weapon. they could just put a button next the the damage of the weapon as a separate way to increase the damage. i'm trying to think of an rpg where this was done before like a sharpening function but nothing comes to mind at the moment
  • TJCartTJCart Member Posts: 412
    edited March 2017
    @JayZ Not sure if I can edit my original post or not, but I'll include the trading as you described it, when I take this to poll.

    @feracolyte My question is what determines the limit of how much you can level your weapon? Would this be implemented for only the current base 20 weapons or all the way down to base 1 weapons? The problem for implementing fixes for specific circumstances is that it creates a lot of special coding and rulesets which is why I'm more interested in sweeping changes that would affect the whole system equally. In a way, I think your suggestion falls in line with item 1, unless you think otherwise.
  • feracolyteferacolyte Member Posts: 163
    i think it does fall in line with item 1 but it should be a significant resource investment to do so. like you could technically bring a level 1 legendary to level 25 but the incremental cost of doing so would be prohibitive compared to finding a level 21 base legendary to upgrade that. this would keep the excitement of finding new gear as well as allow people to keep their favorite pieces of gear around (especially for the cash payers who bought level 19 or 20 gear).

    because it costs like 4 million exp to bring a level 20 to 23 i think it would be reasonable to cost another 4 million to sharpen/tune the weapon to achieve the effective damage of a level 24

    just like how it costs 300 to promote a rare survivor to epic, 730 tokens to promote epic to legendary and 1750 to promote a legendary to pink star, it requires a significant investment to promote but allows you to keep someone worth upgrading
    xbamfx
  • xbamfxxbamfx Member Posts: 1,436
    Exactly the grind is well worth it when you get that shiny new toy you always wanted! That's the whole point, if I just found or spent $20 to get a pretty sweet piece of gear I should be able to carry it forward. I would invest extra xp to keep my special gear for sure.
    thanson
  • HelioHelio Member Posts: 522
    edited March 2017
    I assume NG wants people to search for new weapons... so keeping this in mind this is my proposal:

    Allow any weapon to be rebuilt. When you rebuild the weapon you increase it's base by 1 AND all the traits get reset and randomly assigned (expect for purchased weapons) and you need to unlock the 3 traits again.
    falowyn
  • xbamfxxbamfx Member Posts: 1,436
    To me it's simply counter productive if you ask me. I love the game and play it all the time in search of gear and xp points to make my survivors stronger. When you wipe away all that progress just to start anew it just takes away the sense of accomplishment and worth while of the game. We've seen this in previous games such as destiny, anyone remember that? Lol
    feracolyteWallStreet
  • Maverick1969Maverick1969 Member Posts: 107
    There' s only one solution: back tot the old salt mines.
  • feracolyteferacolyte Member Posts: 163
    > @Helio said:
    > I assume NG wants people to search for new weapons... so keeping this in mind this is my proposal:
    >
    > Allow any weapon to be rebuilt. When you rebuild the weapon you increase it's base by 1 AND all the traits get reset and randomly assigned (expect for purchased weapons) and you need to unlock the 3 traits again.

    this is actually the opposite of what i would want. getting legendaries with poorly rolled traits is easy. 7500 tg from 15 raids (16 if i accidentally raid movado) can easily get a huge assortment of random level 20 legendaries.

    it's the perfect trait ones that we invested time and experience to upgrade that would be a shame to waste
    JayZ
  • thansonthanson Member Posts: 52
    TJCart said:

    For everyone complaining about the level cap especially as it pertains to weapons, Teeceezy has already acknowledged this in another post. While they haven't proposed a solution, I'm sure they're thinking about it. Maybe more than just complaining (which I know isn't completely pointless either as it brings the problem up to the attention of the developers), what about thoughts for a solution? I know there have been several comments about this as well in other posts, but I wanted to consolidate the thoughts here for most of the ones I've seen:

    1. Remove weapon level limits. I suppose the max level would simply be tied to the Workshop level then. The main problem with this is how are minimum requirements for equipping the weapons established? Example: Would you be able to take a lvl 1 weapon, upgrade it to lvl 24 and still equip it on that lvl 1 survivor? It may not be a huge issue, but there may be some room for exploiting a mechanic like this.
    2. Allow purchased weapons to be leveled. Lots of suggestions on how to do this as well.
    2a. "Bump" (free upgrade) the current level of weapons with the update.
    2b. Pay a small fee (relative to the original cost) to upgrade existing purchases.
    2c. "Hero" weapons. One suggestion that I haven't really seen yet (or at least fully fleshed out) is creating a separate class of weapons--call it hero, premium, exclusive, whatever. No these "hero" weapon would not take tokens to unlock/upgrade, but would exist along the current weapon system (fixed level + up to 3 upgrades) and still be able to incorporate the unfixed limit system of idea #1.
    3. Weapon token system. I saw this in a post that suggested being able to trade in some form of new token system for enhancing current weapons, but I didn't examine it well enough and saw some counter-arguments against introducing yet another type of currency into the game. If anyone would want to elaborate on this, please do.
    4. Leave existing system as is and don't introduce new levels so current game can be considered "end-game" (in favor of adding new content at existing level). It may be too late to hope for this as the new update already announces the increased caps.

    If anyone has any new thoughts, please bring them up! I think it may be a good idea to do a poll afterwards to see where the pulse of the community is at.

    I feel like they need to at least strongly consider option 2. Weapons bought with real money should be treated as a lifetime investment within the game. If you spend $20 for Dary's crossbow there should be no need to replace it down the road. Simply put it should have the most ideal stats and be the best possible weapon that someone playing Daryl at ANY level would ever want or need.
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    feracolyteHeadshotDavid_H79srmcn1031falowynstick_ninja
  • TJCartTJCart Member Posts: 412
    edited March 2017
    @General_Quatre
    So first off, I'm relatively new to reading the forums (within the last two updates) and didn't realize that NG has officially taken a stand on weapon level caps. While I agree that purchases were made with transparent expectations of how the weapons function (i.e. level caps), I believe changes could be made to the system that benefits both NG and the gamers which is why I started this discussion.

    Currently weapons are available for purchases which benefits the customer by providing a short term advantage while a player is leveling and possibly a longer term if they purchased it when their survivors were maxed out. While the incentive is there to make some purchases, I think it discourages the Pokémon syndrome of wanting to complete your collection, if they'll eventually be outpaced. Additionally, it may deter some customers from purchasing items until they reach the end game; and if the caps continue to be increased with any normal frequency, from purchasing at all. If the purchases had the added value of continuing to provide benefits in the long term, it may encourage people to spend more on buying more weapons because they'll know that their investment will be worthwhile.

    I'm not saying change the current mechanics just to the player's benefit at the detriment of NG's revenue. However, the main speculation would be if any potential changes would generate more income or not. My guess is that most of the revenue is made from a large number of casual gamers that only want to buy something cool here and there, not from the huge spenders that represent a tiny portion of the player base. With this target audience in mind, I could imagine that making these purchases more worth their while would generate more interest in buying them, whereas the current system kind of discourages these purchases until one reaches an "end-game" where the perceived benefit may be greater. In some cases, the casual gamer may never reach this end-game especially if they keep increasing the caps.
    jester_radics
  • General_QuatreGeneral_Quatre Member Posts: 990
    @TJCart In theory, that all sounds great. However, a few counter-points based on some knowledge of mobile games etc:

    1) The majority of the profits come from "whales", a tiny percentage of high-spenders, NOT little bits from casual players

    2) Most people are probably more impulsive and less thoughtful than the majority of forum-goers, and even if they hate it, the "addiction machine" won't allow many people NOT to keep buying and buying. NG is counting on this, and the numbers have proven them right. Basically speaking, as long as the majority of players have enough fun, they'll swallow the pill that is leveling up and buy weapons at the highest level, even when a new one is introduced. NG clearly has run the numbers and are not afraid of a few malcontents in the forums saying they refuse to buy more gear. Trust me, they'll ALL do it once they start getting outpaced. Or they'll leave the game. But the NG profit margin will continue to improve.

    3) I agree that it is a bit money-grabby of NG to knowingly not remove level caps and increase council level, but that's the business, and people here are naive IMO to think a company would do anything else. At the end of the day, it's still your choice whether or not to purchase items, and you do so knowing there is no guarantee of how long it will be worth your money. Most people do it anyway. If you don't like the system, a) stop playing, or b) stop spending your money, which leads me to...

    4) I for one am F2P and have never spent a cent on this game, and I promise you not having a legendary version of a weapon like the Pitch Fork/Reckoning or a gear bundle has NEVER stopped me from completing missions the way I want. Would I progress quicker by buying gas/XP bundles? Sure, but then I just sit at end-game until there's a Council Upgrade. As it is, I've been maxed for nearly 2-3 months, simply leveling random pieces of gear as "XP Batteries" and playing OP to gain TG, which I spend on tokens to level my survivors to pink stars. I do some Challenges, enough to get a handful of tokens, but not relying on them for XP or gear. I have a stockpile of 370,000 TG which I will hopefully be able to spend on Level 21 gear, and use my XP Batteries to help my progress.

    TL;DR: I agree with you in concept, and I don't love the idea of grinding or having to get new gear and "start over". I would LOVE the level cap to be removed, but understand that's not in the cards and accept it. I kind of wish my fellow players would consider this before posting complaints every time NG does...well, anything.
    SCBMAKaLi
  • hhmcameronhhmcameron Member Posts: 224
    I spent real money for some of these weapons, the purchased weapons should not have a level cap. But that would cut into their ill gotten gains
  • TJCartTJCart Member Posts: 412
    I see, I had heard elsewhere that the "whales" did not account for the majority of revenue which was what I based my assumptions off of. Either way, I'm sure you're right that NG has a handle on where there income comes from so it won't change most likely. However, I've always felt that complaints aren't always a bad thing. As long as they stay out of the realm of finger-pointing and name-calling, they can give the developer a sense of satisfaction level within the community. I mean if you're hearing the same complaint every day it may have some basis for truth or at least warrant some further inspection. I, however, do enjoy my tomato soup :smirk:
  • General_QuatreGeneral_Quatre Member Posts: 990
    Yeah but more often than not, the complaints follow the trend of "NG didn't give me what I want and believe I deserve, so they should do what I want because I WANT IT"

    That is not based in constructive game building critique, but rather constitutes people being upset because the game isn't catering to them.
    MabikiDodkong
  • Shut_UpShut_Up Member Posts: 2,295
    edited March 2017
    I would love to see a choice of gear when we open a legendary crate and you can keep one or scrap one just like radio tent.

    I would like scrapping legendary gear as soon as a legendary crate is opened results in gained (or returned) TG and not XP.

    NG knows what the good combination of traits are so I would like to see more gear made with certain traits then just leaving it all to chance.
    Captainslayer
  • KillingLightKillingLight Member Posts: 118
    I suggested number 3 but I didn't mean it would be a token system.

    I suggested that characters can unlock their special weapons by a kill system..
    Examples of how it works.

    1) Kill 500 walkers using daryl to get his crossbow.
    2) Kill 100 walkers using Morgan to get his staff..


    This will encourage more hero usage and weapoms that can be unlocked by anyone..
    CaptainslayerRozBBRi
  • EL34xyzEL34xyz Member Posts: 1,872
    edited March 2017
    Why make all these complicated scenarios?
    It's a programmer's worst nightmare to have all those extra what if's and decision branches

    Why not just pay XP to upgrade the weapon to the next level?
    Just like we do on survivors. (Which we were not able to do long ago)
    And just like we do on srvrs with the training grounds, the Workshop dictates the max level you can upgrade a weapon

    NG already knows how to do this, for srvrs, so it's not a big leap to do this for weapons

    At least make the paid for weapons upgradeable.
    gespuercrambert_necjester_radics
  • David_H79David_H79 Member Posts: 1,866
    This game has a really good balance between players who pay and players who don't.

    If you now change the system and make paid weapons upgradeable, you also destroy this balance.

    The paying player can upgrade all their weapons, while the free player has to find new ones.

    Like others mentioned before you've known what you are buying. You bought a weapon at a certain level, while the council said the whole time "upgrade soon".

    So I see no reason for complaints.
    General_QuatregespuerCherokee_Rosestick_ninja
  • EL34xyzEL34xyz Member Posts: 1,872
    edited March 2017
    I have no problem with using the same weapons for a long time

    I will still buy a new toy if it is really useful like Morgans Staff or a hunters rifle with the right traits

    Just make the paid for weapons special weapons that can't be found in the normal game crates
    That solves the problem of NG worrying that people will not buy new weapons

    If you can't get it in the normal crates, then I will buy it
  • feracolyteferacolyte Member Posts: 163
    on one hand @david_h79 is entirely correct. i'm a f2p player myself and it's incredibly satisfying to find the equivalent of a bundle weapon randomly. if cash weapons were futureproofed and our f2p gear wasn't that would be kind of unfair.

    on the other hand, purchasing gear is basically paying to not have to grind, so the unfair period would only last a few weeks after a council upgrade at which point everyone else would have a fair shot in outposts and challenges
  • feracolyteferacolyte Member Posts: 163
    morgan's staff and the kingdom spear/pitchfork are basically the only unattainable weapons for f2p players aside from the rare pitchfork(unless you're like me and accidentally scrapped it) and the epic level 17 wide margin. the problem if they fix the burning/spikes damage from the kingdom spear/pitchfork is that if they introduce the spiked winslow walker into challenges, that would be the only way to deal with him at high levels since he resists bullets, stun, and makes melee survivors bleed on contact
  • mitze90mitze90 Member Posts: 6
    edited March 2017
    Here's my idea, available to all items.

    Once you max out an items level you can upgrade its base level by one but it resets the level to the new base level and doesn't affect traits. But you do need to upgrade to unlock the traits again.

    The cost of upgrading the base, i dunno, the trash fee would seem like a good starting point.

    Maybe if you wanted to flesh it out a bit this could be done in Eugene's workshop. So you'd have to unlock Eugene first, and you could only upgrade the base level to Eugene's current level.
    Captainslayerferacolyte
  • Angelo75Angelo75 Member Posts: 55
    I would like to see them fix it so we can keep our hero weapons. Since most of us who have them there already upgraded so have the option of lvling them to 21 with traits locked again and we have to unlock traits again with xp.
    gespuerBBRi
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