For next challenge, will lvl21 players start at RSL15 or RSL16?

Juanlo · March 2017

As @Shteevie posted in another thread:

Shteevie said:
Edit: players with level 21 survivors are getting starts of difficulty 21. Since the challenge has already started, this is not something we can change for this challenge. It was not intended in the development of 2.5, but we will keep an eye on players' ability to make progress in case an adjustment is needed.

So it's not intented for level 21 players to start at RSL16 and nothing can be done for this challenge. The question is: what will happen for next challenge? Some of us are still upgrading our council and we must decide what we upgrade next: training grounds or workshop. If level 21 players start at RSL15, it may be interesting to upgrade our survivors first. Otherwise, we may prefer to upgrade weapons first and only upgrade our survivors when we have good lvl 24 gear for them.

I think it's important that NG clearly states what will happen in the next challenge so we can choose an upgrade path. Shteevie's answer does not make it clear at all. The change is not intended, but they will monitor and make adjustments if it's needed? I don't get it, if it's not intended then it's not intendended and should be fixed ASAP.

DLich · March 2017

Basically I'm reading the adjustments part being if the elite players still earn a massive amount of stars (elite being those whom started at RSL 16 because they are so advanced in the game and spent gold to rush things) then they'll keep it this way.

It's not about losing the 15 stars + 18 stars = 33 stars. It's about being able to advance as intended.

If starting at RSL 16 was not intended it should be corrected next go around end of story in my opinion.

David_H79 · March 2017

There is definitely a discrepancy. Because @SCBMA mentioned he started at RSL 15 with 10 Level 21 survivors.
I have less 21 survivors and started at RSL 16.
So there is a fix needed. It's coincidence if you start at RSL 15 or RSL 16.
So if you start at RSL 16 you miss 107 stars, because the triple rounds start at RSL 20.
It would only be fair, if player with the same survivor level starts at the same RSL.

Juanlo · March 2017

As I think more about it, I believe that both level 20 and level 21 should start at the same level. Why? Because level 21 players should be able to score more stars than level 20 players. If a level 20 player gets 3 stars in each round from 15 to 25, and a level 21 player gets 3 stars from 16 to 26... what's the point of leveling at all, besides outposts and story missions? You would always get the same amount of stars no matter your level, as long as you have fully upgraded survivors and gear.

On the other hand, if both start at the same level, someone with level 21 survivors would should be able to play one extra round (that would translate into 3 or 4 because of the replays), invest more time in the game and would need more gas, so that should be balanced too, or it would take us to where we were before the challenge revamp.

What are NG plans about it?

Shteevie · March 2017

We are not going to change the current challenge, of course, but are going to be gathering data from the game and from the players who had contacted us requesting the change to come up with a plan. Right now, all options are on the table.

JackBauer · March 2017

@Shteevie I would like to start at RSL20.

Monsuta · March 2017

@Juanlo
Level 21 can earn more stars than level 20 did even with the level increase:

Level 21 starting at level 16 finishing level 21 can get 373 stars
Level 20 starting at level 15 finishing level 20 can get 363 stars

It's 10 stars more

You can see the difference here:
http://forums.nextgames.com/walkingdead/discussion/24459/you-requested-it-so-we-rewind#latest
@DLich

Juanlo · March 2017

@Monsuta, thanks for the info, I didn't take into account that you add 1 extra star per round if you start at level 16.

GrimGael · March 2017

There's no way to know. They're watching and planning. They might do something, but as always, there's no way for them to know if they will and what that something will actually do ingame, until they do it, then they will watch and plan again.
Lol, why ask why.

DLich · March 2017

As much as I wish the comparison was as simple as that it's not taking into effect the gear etc.

Using the same logic especially applied to higher RSL's let's say

Monsuta said:
@Juanlo

Level 21 can earn more stars than level 20 did even with the level increase:

Level 21 starting at level 16 finishing level 21 can get 373 stars

Level 20 starting at level 15 finishing level 20 can get 363 stars

Lvl 21 starting at level 16 finishing 20 rounds earns 785 stars (ending RSL 24.1)
Lvl 20 starting at level 15 finishing 20 rounds earns 765 stars (ending RSL 25.1)

This may seem like a difference of 20 stars yes but in retrospect it will take MUCH longer to have the gear appropriate to complete said level 25.1. For example, a guild mate upgraded their hunter and earned an additional 119 damage on survivor. The difference in health between a lvl 24 walker and 25 walker is way more than 119. It's increased even more when you factor in armored and fatties.

Theoretically comparing apples to apples it's assumed the moment someone has enough lvl 21 survivors to warrant the increased starting RSL that they automatically have the ability to complete an additional round (in this case 3) without doing anything else is inaccurate.

It's not like the armed forces where as soon as you're 18 you're able to do more (enlist) or the drinking age when you turn 21 can legally consume alcoholic beverages. There is still a long way to go to being able to compete.

If i'm able to make it to RSL 25 with lvl 20 survivors it shouldn't be assumed that the additional 120ish base damage they inflict will automatically allow them to magically be able to kill an additional level of walkers.

Here's some screen shots

Here is Rosita's Assault Rifle lvl 23 giving 1084 base damage

Here is Rosita's Assault Rifle lvl 24 giving 1210 base damage

That's a difference of 126 additional damage (even more if it crits)

Here is an example of the additional damage by upgrading a survivor from lvl 20 to 21 (119 damage)

Here is an after look at Dwight at lvl 21 with a lvl 23 weapon. We'll backtrack in a moment to find his extra percentage damage.

Dwight at lvl 21 with lvl 23 Rosita's Assault Rifle does 2266 base damage

Working backwards at lvl 20 he did 2266 - 119 damage so 2147 is lvl 20 with lvl 23

Working forwards at lvl 21 he does 2266 + 126 damage so 2392 is lvl 21 with lvl 24

Since 2392 (21/24) and 2147 (20/23) is a difference of 245. Comparing one to the other it's an 11.4% increase in base damage once weapon is upgraded.

If we factor in just additional damage due to upgrading alone (the 119) it's a 5.5% increase. More than half of the total increase (11.4%) comes from the weapons upgrade (5.8%) which takes substantially longer and requires a massive amount of resources and time to accomplish.

Using this chart here we can see that in the instances of tanks alone between lvl 24 (11968 health) and lvl 25 (14228 health) is a difference of 2260 health. Percentage wise that's an 18.9% increase in health from one level to another. My 119 additional damage and 5.5% additional overall is grossly incomparable to the increase in the opponents health and therefore the main argument against the logic of warranting a RSL upgrade before people are ready and why many are choosing to upgrade their workshop first before upgrading their survivors.

Thanks for reading if you've made it this far

GrimGael · March 2017

Heresy.
Predictive data analysis, like beta testing, is pagan voodoo practiced by ignorant savages.

DLich · March 2017

Long story short; if
my lvl 20 survivors with lvl 23 gear that start on RSL 15 can make it 20 rounds to defeat RSL 24.1 and earn 765 stars

it should not be assumed

my lvl 21 survivors with lvl 23 gear that start on RSL 16 can make it 20 rounds to defeat RSL 25.1 to earn 785 stars.

I will automatically lose

33 stars for not being able to play RSL 15;
37 stars for not being able to play 19.2;
37 stars for not being able to play 19.3 (total of 107)

and instead I am expected to get 3 stars in each map on

24.2 (42 stars);
24.3 (42 stars);
25.1 (43 stars) which is 127 stars and that's the 20 difference.

I'm sacrificing an RSL 15 and 2 RSL 19's for 2 RSL 24's and 1 RSL 25.

These cannot be compared because I have 2 survivors that are lvl 21. I hope this explains that the 20 "extra" stars are apples to oranges.

*edit; cleaned up the format so it's easier to read.

1Ris · March 2017

Wow @DLich

Very helpful information/breakdown ... thank you !

TheLostOnes · March 2017

DLich said:
Long story short; if my .....

Great job explaining this @DLich

But only you can start a post saying "long story short" and then write 170 words

Jaden · March 2017

@TheLostOnes

I could do that. I sometimes do.

DLich · March 2017

One last point to be made, I was one of the fools who rushed a few farms and the council upgrade so that I could upgrade my training grounds and an assault so that I could get the Dixieland BBQ to be lvl 21 before I accepted it.

My assault earned an additional 110 damage for being upgraded to lvl 21 as seen here

I didn't take a before an after picture of her damage so I loaded her with a low level, not trait bearing piece of equipment for this example and can see that her damage at lvl 21 does 860 of which 17 is from the weapon so therefore 843 is hers.

Using the same logic in math applied above; if she has 843 base "survivor damage" after upgraded to lvl 21 and earned 110 with her level upgrade, she was 733 at lvl 20 base "survivor damage" alone.

110 added to 733 is a 15% damage boost on survivor upgrade to lvl 21 compared to lvl 20

Now going back to this chart again we see that lvl 21 normal walkers (which I would regularly face with pink star survivors) have a health of 1378. Now that I have 1, yes only one, lvl 21 survivor the scavenger normal missions now increase to RSL 22. Normal walkers that are lvl 22 have a health of 1635. 1635 - 1378 is 257. 257 added to 1378 is an additional 18.7% health vs my 15% increased damage that only one survivor has (meanwhile my other survivors are still lvl 20). Oops just realized I'm using pre 2.5 numbers so let's try it again.

lvl 21 normal walker is 1766 health. lvl 22 normal walker is 2096 health. That's a difference of 330. 1766 + 330 health is a difference of 18.7% bonus to health still vs my 15% bonus to damage on one single survivor.

I understand eventually it'll level itself out BUT the reason I posted this here is because if we as players are avoiding upgrading our survivors so we can get appropriate base lvl 21 gear that they can use before the survivor is leveled up to use it so we can avoid losing out on 107 stars in challenges it puts players whom have attempted to get one survivor to lvl 21 in order to get the BBQ weapon in a stalemate.

Do I continue to try and upgrade survivors so that they all have a better chance at playing scavenger missions or do I not continue to try and upgrade survivors so that I won't get screwed out of 107 challenge stars?

I can't think this was the intention of the developers and I'm not knocking them in these posts, it's just put players at a "what is best to do" phase of the game.

Or maybe I am the only idiot whom wanted the BBQ weapon at base lvl 21 lol.

TransmuteJun · March 2017

All of this is making me really glad I decided to upgrade my workshop before my training grounds and forego the level 21 Dixieland BBQ.

This being said, this whole mess is because NG is starting the challenge 1 RsL higher, thanks to the complaints of a (comparatively) small group of vocal players.

NG, is it possible to just have players starts where they want? When the challenge begins, have a box pop up.

Begin Challenge at RSL -6?
Begin Challenge at RSL +0?
Begin Challenge at RSL +3?

Then those of us who like to earn stars could start at RSL -6 and those who like to get to higher levels could do so.

General_Quatre · March 2017

Not a bad idea, @TransmuteJun. Though I bet it will create other unforeseen obstacles which I'm not smart enough to figure out.

Point is, the Walker Buff should not have happened, or at least not at these high levels. Between that and the grind to level up survivors and gear, AND the Challenge RSL going up one or TWO for some people, the game has become very skewed against end-gamers, as @DLich's data has pointed out (and thanks for doing the math on that).

I have read all of @Shteevie and @Teeceezy's posts about why these things have happened, but I'm not sure they grasp the full consequences for the players. Maybe it sounded good in concept, but in execution is just hurting a lot of players and making them not want to play. I am in that boat, and feel like I'm just sort of lying down and taking it for now.

Jaden · March 2017

For now I am just glad that I decided to take the pressure out of it and claimed the lamethrower at level 20.

I'm having a much easier challenge than the players who have already upgraded one or more survivors to level 21.

That doesn't seem right at all...

NCDawgFan · March 2017

My issue with the starting level is the same issue I have with most everything from NG. Poor communication. I would have waited until the challenge started to upgrade any survivors to level 21 if NG had provided a PSA on the subject. I finished the first stsge of level 28 and earned 1,132 stars last week. This would have been 1,239 stars if not for my level 21 survivors. Players who started at a lower level and were not able reach level 28, earned many more stars.

And don't get me started on the cluster that was the lack of communcation/explanation on the level 20 to 21 survivor training cost discrepancy...

Loewe1968 · March 2017

@Shteevie

Is it so difficult to answer a simple but decisive question?

Under which conditions (fighter level and number of fighters) start with RSL 15 and when with RSL 16?

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For next challenge, will lvl21 players start at RSL15 or RSL16?

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