2.7 and beyond??

Did the discussion title catch your eye? Good. So with the help of @Bill_ZRT analysis of how triple round and starting RSL are calculated I did some projections for the next couple of updates if the challenge system stays the way it is (with us losing stars for a "handicap" each time we upgrade our survivors)

These numbers are based off the math as follows.

Starting RSL is equal to the sum of your three best survivors, multiplied by .7 and then divided by 3.
..... Read as [(A+B+C)x.7]/3

Triple round is determined by the sum of your three best survivors divided by 3 then subtract 1 and drop the remained.
..... Read as [(A+B+C)/3]-1 rounded down.

The chart below assumes "natural progression". Leveling up survivors one at a time and not keeping most at lvl 20 for example and having 1 at 22. If you are curious where you might end up the number on the top of each section indicates the total sum of the three best survivors so 22+20+20 would land in the 62 bracket.

This chart is for educational purposes only. In no way am I trying to speak on behalf of Next Games or any of the staff of Next Games. This chart is created using the knowledge of how starting RSL & Triple rounds are determined.

Enjoy!!



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Comments

  • PutchucoPutchuco Member Posts: 1,289
    Super chart, very good overview.

    What are we proposing to fix this?
    Double round only on first repeat lvl?
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  • JackBauerJackBauer Member Posts: 1,550
    Don't scare me.
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  • DLichDLich Member Posts: 5,541
    Working backwards this should be accurate.



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  • zeeblackzeeblack Member Posts: 1,160
    Great @DLich . As a result of 3 level 21s, I am losing 54 stars on levels lost. Level 14 plus two level 19. And not counting the bonus at end of each level

    I am the one and only Zee Black, climbed all the way to Level 75, part of SG Woot, the 3 million star guild

  • DLichDLich Member Posts: 5,541
    zeeblack said:

    Great @DLich . As a result of 3 level 21s, I am losing 54 stars on levels lost. Level 14 plus two level 19. And not counting the bonus at end of each level

    Yep

    18+18+18 = 54 round stars
    14+19+19 = 52 bonus stars
    106 stars total

    This will happen again when we hit 3 lvl 25's causing a loss of 117 stars
    This will happen again when we hit 3 lvl 28's causing a loss of 125 stars

    The triple round is easy to determine. When the sum of your 3 best survivors is divisible by 3 is when the triple round increases. 51,54,57,60,63,66,69,72 etc. It's basically when you have 3 survivors of all the same level ex 20,20,20; 21,21,21; 22,22,22 etc. 20,21,22 will also cause this change.

    The beginning round since multiplied by a decimal varies. There are some where it takes 5 survivor upgrades to change starting RSL. example being 19,19,20 through 20,21,21 all have starting RSL at 14.

    19,19,20; 19,20,20; 20,20,20; 20,20,21; 20,21,21 will all have starting RSL at 14. Upgrading that 3rd lvl 21 bumps the starting RSL (21+21+21) = 63. 63 x .7 = 44.1 divided by 3 = 14.7 and bumps the starting RSL to 15 due to rounding. Since 63 is also divisible by 3 (63/3 = 21 - 1 = 20) it also bumps the triple rounds to 20.

    This takes the biggest hit because both starting and triple rounds change due to the math used that changes these stats.

    Basically this chart just shows how to current data analysis of the challenge star information will never lead you to get "more" stars without taking some away OR being in a location that doesn't warrant the increase. Ultimately being in a place that's "grey" won't affect any change in starting RSL or triple rounds.

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  • ShteevieShteevie Staff Posts: 1,335
    The charts leave off some information:
    -Stars earned by reaching higher difficulties
    -Stars per round increases overall based on starting from higher difficulties

    Furthermore, the summation of the stars together and presenting it as some sort of 'total loss' is disingenuous, as it assumes that the player with level 19 survivors could complete the same number of rounds at the same difficulties as the player with level 22 survivors.

    We are working on changes to specifically address this problem. Possible solutions or potential lines of inquiry can be sent to us directly, and should be to ensure that they are seen and considered. Further fanning flames of discontent only makes it harder for us on the dev team to actually solve the problem.
    Development Team Member - The Walking Dead: No Man's Land
    Please note: Development is a fluid process, and suggestions and implementation take time and iteration. Any discussion of future features, deadlines, updates, balance changes, and such should be considered prospective and subject to change.
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  • nadecirnadecir Member Posts: 271
    The new challenge system was done in by unintended consequences. NG designed a system that may have worked initially, but updates after the new challenge system's introduction rendered this original design inadequate and did so rather quickly. The cost to NG of this complicated design has been high in terms of internal costs involved in its design, development, and testing, along with customer support issues and customer dissatisfaction with this design. It is reasonable to assume that NG has lost revenue because of the complicated new challenge design. Now it seems there are redesign and redevelopment necessary.

    Any redesign has to stand up to this problem of unintended consequences, both now and in the future. This is extremely difficult given that future changes to this game are impossible to predict. Players will continue to find new and creative ways to play this game that NG can't reasonably predict right now. Complicated designs are bound to have unintended consequences at some point in time.

    I submit there is only one challenge system design that is best to prevent unintended consequences. Let the player select which level of the challenge that they'd like to start for each challenge. If players want to play more in a given week, they start the challenge at a low level. If they don't want to grind, and just want the challenge and good rewards earlier, they start the challenge at a higher level. This solution is simple to design, easy to understand, easy to develop and maintain, will be positively received by the players, and will likely increase revenue with booster and gold sales. Maybe most importantly, this solution will stand the test of time, no matter what changes are made to the game in the future.

    NG has made many great design decisions in the development of this game. Like any development company, I am sure there are some design decisions that the company would change in retrospect.

    With that in mind, and with all due respect, please give serious consideration to the simple solution to this issue.
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  • PicPic Member Posts: 1,061
    Ty @DLich great post
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  • crambert_neccrambert_nec Member Posts: 1,376
    Is it the triple rounds that throw off the star counts and contribute to the loss of stars? What if they just got rid of repeated rounds and start everyone at a set level below their highest 2 survivor levels?
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  • Pain WalkerPain Walker Content Creator Posts: 2,602
    edited July 2017
    I see the future... now I see my signature...now the future again...

    The future is bright. :D

    Probably making a video!

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  • DragonfyreDragonfyre Member Posts: 117
    Stars per round increases overall based on starting from higher difficulties?

    Huh? What about lost stars from upgrading? Would take a lot of high lvl rounds to recoup those lost one would think!

    Each round you go on to is worth 1 star more per round. 3peats would be a total of 3 per round. Because I have accidently unlock a worthless hero I am now with 3x22s and effectively lost 76 stars from when I had 2x22 and 1x21. So now I have to hope that my FTP gear I can find is worthy to lvl up to fight well into lvl 27 or 28. Just to offset the loss.

    Still feels like we get punished for advancing. Find a system where we have a choice of grinding or not. Let us choose like nadecir has suggested. This system is broken and a solution sure has taken a long time to figure out when all it seems to take would be a way to reward us high end players, instead of punishing us for advancing.

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  • DragonfyreDragonfyre Member Posts: 117
    Agreed crambert_nec but is a thought. There has to be a solution and thoughts like nadecir and others is how to fix a VERY broken system
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  • crambert_neccrambert_nec Member Posts: 1,376
    The point of Challenge System 2.0 was to eliminate the low level grind, and I like that about it. What if they kept the same mechanics in place (starting RSL, RSL where triple rounds start, etc.), but had us start with a bank of stars equal to 3-starring and completing every round from RSL 1 up to where we started? Would the math still be off at that point?
    Leader of WATCH TOWER RoD
    DLich
  • DLichDLich Member Posts: 5,541
    edited July 2017

    The point of Challenge System 2.0 was to eliminate the low level grind, and I like that about it. What if they kept the same mechanics in place (starting RSL, RSL where triple rounds start, etc.), but had us start with a bank of stars equal to 3-starring and completing every round from RSL 1 up to where we started? Would the math still be off at that point?

    Start me at RSL 30. Look at that I spent 0 gas and I earned my guild 1500 stars!!

    I get what you're saying though. It would make it much easier as a streamline approach.

    Hopefully NG has some plans in mind to fix this for the better. I'd like to be something that would also not discourage players from upgrading multiple survivors to lvl 22. If they could implement something that does both fix the issue and help players not feel screwed out of stars for upgrading to lvl 22 survivors it would be a win win!!

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  • DragonfyreDragonfyre Member Posts: 117
    Now there is another thought that could be used/adjusted. Or at least at higher rounds maybe 30 stars worth of maps each round? The offset would be a bit more digestible for us who have worked hard to get where we are. So many options. Just needs to get handled so players at higher lvls don't leave.

    I am in a large guild and have watched some high end players walk away over this very issue. That does not go well when lower lvl players see that and hear the grumbling.
    @Dragonfyre (Leader/Dragons Weyr)
  • crambert_neccrambert_nec Member Posts: 1,376
    Lol @DLich. But you're the math wiz here. Right now I have 2 level 22 survivors, I start at RSL 15, start repeating at RSL 20, blah blah blah. If I still started at RSL 15 plus all of the stars I would have gotten had I started at RSL 1, would that fix the star imbalance? Or would everyone just have much higher star totals but with the same loss of stars based on what RSL you start at what round you start repeating at?
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  • crambert_neccrambert_nec Member Posts: 1,376
    Or what if the bonus stars for each repeated round are multiplicative? 20 stars for completing RSL 20.1, 40 (20x2) for completing RSL 20.2, and 60 (20x3) for completing RSL 20.3? Would that fix anything? I'm just spitballing here...
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  • DLichDLich Member Posts: 5,541
    edited July 2017
    We'd have to be given the number of stars someone who started at RSL 1 and tripled whenever. Without doing the numbers it would have to be somewhere near 1K stars they'd have to give the higher level players to make up for it (if not more).

    If players with lvl 22 survivors start at RSL 15 and the lowest, newest player on the forum would start at RSL 1 then we'd have to receive RSL 1-14 stars and completed round bonus. That's 18x14 = 252 stars just on single rounds alone!! Plus the bonus stars (1+2+3+4+5....+14 = 105). So 357 just on individual single rounds from RSL 1 through RSL 14. Plus any triple rounds that lower level survivors would earn that we can't.

    Bottom line is I don't forsee NG giving out 357 stars as a "make up" headstart and all the rewards that go along with it for free. So I don't think that's a viable solution at all unfortunately.

    edit * Apparently I have fat thumbs and clicked incorrect numbers. DAMN YOU THUMBS!!!!!!!

    Second edit * assume NG gave us triple round worth of stars for RSL 1-14 that's 357x3 = 1071. That would be close to the number of stars we'd have to be given in order to make it "equal". Also since lower RSL's can get triple rounds on 15-20 like we cannot we'd have to add 2 rounds of each 15 through 20 and their stars too. 18x12 = 216 for round completed stars for 15.2, 15.3, 16.2, 16.3 etc all the way through 20.2. Plus the bonus (15+15+16+16... 20+20 = 210) another 416 stars.

    357 stars for RSL 1-14 single round
    357 stars for RSL 1-14 double round
    357 stars for RSL 1-14 triple round
    216 for RSL 15-20 completed double and triple rounds perfect score
    210 for RSL 15-20 completed double and triple rounds bonus stars

    1497 total stars going into triple round 21.1 for all things to be "equal"

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