She ain't a looker...

Raven2318Raven2318 Member Posts: 207
But is she a keeper? Still looking for a truly great bruiser. I have Jake, my personal fave, and Dawn... who to invest in?


anniesprinkles

Comments

  • tabernactabernac Member Posts: 805
    Dawn is my pick for your TGB (Truly Great Bruiser). =)
    bigbeanoanniesprinkles
  • JadenJaden Member Posts: 3,066
    I don't think that bruisers need to do a lot of damage. Their main focus is to stun and to be able to withstand some damage.

    If Susan had iron skin instead of powerstrike I would like her much better. I've not had a chance to test punish and don't know how it actually works (as opposed to how it's supposed to work - maybe it's the same), but in general it sounds like a good trait.

    I think I like Jake better than Dawn. Can't say whether Susan is better as Jake or not. That would depend on how effective punish actually is.

    Will be interesting to read what others who have tried punish think about them.
    Leader of Morbid Sinners and Morbid Spirits

    Morbid Survivors are looking for you! If you are looking for a new guild, PM me.
    bigbeanosligoemTHCrossanniesprinkles
  • MabikiMabiki Member Posts: 1,732
    Jake is my favorite, but they are all pretty damn good. Punish might push Susan to the top, but I haven't had a chance to experiment with that trait yet.
    anniesprinkles
  • 淡水地鼠淡水地鼠 Member Posts: 278
    punish+retaliate would be the best traits in outpost defence
  • tabernactabernac Member Posts: 805
    Jaden said:

    I don't think that bruisers need to do a lot of damage. Their main focus is to stun and to be able to withstand some damage.

    If Susan had iron skin instead of powerstrike I would like her much better.

    @Jaden, I agree that Susan would be better with Iron Skin, but you'd give up Power Strike for it? I get not being overly impressed with the +35% Damage, but on Bruisers the +35% increased chance of a Critical Attack seems pretty important for getting some successful stuns on higher level Zeds.

    THCrossanniesprinkles
  • JadenJaden Member Posts: 3,066
    @tabernac
    If I use bruisers, I tend to move them to get to stun different targets. And in that case, power strike doesn't trigger.

    I can see it being useful if you have iron skin, dodge, luck and defensive stance and just keep them coming. Or maybe punish, then, instead of luck... And then there would be no retaliate, so maybe no dodge, either, but retaliate instead...

    Anyway, it depends on how you play, I guess.
    Leader of Morbid Sinners and Morbid Spirits

    Morbid Survivors are looking for you! If you are looking for a new guild, PM me.
    anniesprinkles
  • tabernactabernac Member Posts: 805
    @Jaden Fair enough, I tend to use Bruisers when things have gotten pretty ugly. Small claustrophobic maps where you've got your back up against the wall almost immediately. The Archives challenge map is a good example that comes to mind. When the Zeds are at levels at which Stun doesn't trigger consistently anymore.

    Thanks for replying. I'm always trying to look at things from different angles, and you make a good point.
    JadenTHCrossanniesprinkles
  • DBonesDBones Member Posts: 800
    I recently picked up this guy as an epic. Kept him in the hopes that retaliate would be his 5th trait. Boom! In my opinion, this dude has PERFECT "defensive" bruiser traits. I can't wait to have him completely upgraded. Dude will can take on The Archives all by himself! :D


    Board-certified slayer of the dead
    Proud elder of Dead Stalkers
    David_H79JadenTheSittingDuck
  • jimmorrison369jimmorrison369 Member Posts: 1,994
    tabernac said:

    +35% increased chance of a Critical Attack seems pretty important for getting some successful stuns on higher level Zeds.

    But it doesn't work like that unfortunately.

    The only reason why it's hard/impossible to stun a high level walker is because of body-shot. (you probably already know this)
    This same body-shot will still be a body-shot when you would have a regular critical attack.
    Only charge attacks can prevent a body-shot. Piercing can reduce the chance at body-shot, so does luck.

    Power strike will have 0% advantage when you want more chance to stun.
    Only trait (on a bruiser) that would slightly give you an advantage is luck.
    This reduces your chance at body-shot by a small margin.
    anniesprinkles
  • jimmorrison369jimmorrison369 Member Posts: 1,994
    To expand on previous post.
    All offensive traits are useless when you make a body-shot...
    anniesprinkles
  • jimmorrison369jimmorrison369 Member Posts: 1,994
    Critical hit does help against dodge btw.
    So if you want a higher chance to stun an opponent with dodge. Then power strike would help.
    anniesprinkles
  • jimmorrison369jimmorrison369 Member Posts: 1,994
    Critical hit does help against dodge btw.
    So if you want a higher chance to stun an opponent with dodge. Then power strike would help.
  • tabernactabernac Member Posts: 805

    tabernac said:

    +35% increased chance of a Critical Attack seems pretty important for getting some successful stuns on higher level Zeds.

    But it doesn't work like that unfortunately.

    The only reason why it's hard/impossible to stun a high level walker is because of body-shot. (you probably already know this)
    This same body-shot will still be a body-shot when you would have a regular critical attack.
    Only charge attacks can prevent a body-shot. Piercing can reduce the chance at body-shot, so does luck.

    Power strike will have 0% advantage when you want more chance to stun.
    Only trait (on a bruiser) that would slightly give you an advantage is luck.
    This reduces your chance at body-shot by a small margin.
    Good point, I should have been more specific. I agree totally that once you get around 5 levels above your survivor level, your chances to stun are around 0%. At that point your Bruiser is pretty much a punching bag to mitigate hits to your more fragile survivors. There are still some chances to stun Zeds in the +3 to +4 range though and Power Strike should be a factor in that, correct? Whether or not you think that factor is enough to warrant setting aside a valuable trait slot for it is a different discussion. I tend to think that it is, but I can definitely see the other side of the argument.

    This is all anecdotal of course so grain of salt, but my Bruiser with Power Strike seems significantly more likely to pull of stuns at RSL +3/4 than my Bruiser that doesn't have it. Both are at the same level and have the Luck trait and aren't using weapons that have a Luck buff.
    anniesprinkles
  • jimmorrison369jimmorrison369 Member Posts: 1,994
    edited July 2017
    tabernac said:

    There are still some chances to stun Zeds in the +3 to +4 range though and Power Strike should be a factor in that, correct?

    Not for a higher chance at stun.

    I don't mean to say power-strike is without value.
    I think critical hits are pretty good.
    It wil still give you higer damage, if that's what you want.
    It can still negate dodge, so in outpost you can counter dodge on a survivor.

    But your chance at stun will be exactly the same without it.

    I think power-strike is pretty sensible on a bruiser.
    A bruiser is build to take a hit. Take that hit, and next turn you'll be activating power-strike.
    You'll have a relative high damage output with this trait.

    Thing is though, relative to other survivor types, that still isn't that much damage.
    But it could be just what you needed.
    tabernac said:

    my Bruiser with Power Strike seems significantly more likely to pull of stuns at RSL +3/4

    Well, there shouldn't be a stun-related difference in power-strike. (besides negating a dodge).
    anniesprinkles
  • JadenJaden Member Posts: 3,066
    I might be wrong here but I think I read somewhere that critical hits and bodyshots level each other out so you end up with a normal hit (which would stun - and in that case, an increased chance of critical hits would still get you further than not having that).

    Might be confusing that with something else, though, and couldn't find it in the forum.
    Leader of Morbid Sinners and Morbid Spirits

    Morbid Survivors are looking for you! If you are looking for a new guild, PM me.
    Picanniesprinkles
  • tabernactabernac Member Posts: 805
    Jaden said:

    I might be wrong here but I think I read somewhere that critical hits and bodyshots level each other out so you end up with a normal hit (which would stun - and in that case, an increased chance of critical hits would still get you further than not having that).

    Might be confusing that with something else, though, and couldn't find it in the forum.

    I'm pretty sure I've heard that somewhere as well. And it would support what I've seen anecdotally, but I've been unsuccessful as well trying to dig it up.
    anniesprinkles
  • jimmorrison369jimmorrison369 Member Posts: 1,994
    Jaden said:

    critical hits and bodyshots level each other out

    charge attacks do
    critical hits don't.
    anniesprinkles
  • tabernactabernac Member Posts: 805
    So @jimmorrison369, any stuns that are successfully triggered past Survival Level +3 are basically due to a small margin instance where Luck kicks in? I must have been crediting Power Strike mistakenly when I've seen this in the past. Many thanks!
    jimmorrison369Picanniesprinkles
  • JadenJaden Member Posts: 3,066
    You are not talking about guaranteed critical hits by charge attacks, right? I have never seen them being a normal hit but always a critical. But maybe I didn't get high enough to experience that.

    It would still be confusing if
    a) guaranteed critical + bodyshot = normal hit
    b) critical + bodyshot = bodyshot

    Is there any thread about that? I'm sure there was, but can't find it...
    Leader of Morbid Sinners and Morbid Spirits

    Morbid Survivors are looking for you! If you are looking for a new guild, PM me.
    anniesprinkles
  • jimmorrison369jimmorrison369 Member Posts: 1,994
    @Jaden

    a
    Yeah, a guaranteed critical (charge attack) ignores a body shot. So it is still a critical yes.
    I wasn't complete by saying "charge attacks do". To be complete, I meant to say:
    Maybe some people mistake a charge critical, as critical still working. Maybe some bad rumours started there.

    b
    critical + bodyshot = body-shot.


    I don't have time atm for finding a thread about this.
    It is really easy to test for certain though.

    a
    this can be tested by just charge-attacking extremely high RSL walkers with a shooter or hunter.
    This will always be a critical.

    b
    This can be tested by using a shooter, hunter or assault with near 100% critical on high level walkers.
    So take a survivor with lots of luck + sure-shot and maybe increased critical on the weapon.
    This I've tested months ago. I have a survivor that hits critical every single hit on normal RSL.
    When on high RSL, he just body-shots all the time.
    If critical would negate body-shot, then he would be normal hitting high RSL all over the place.
    He doesn't, so conclusion is critical hits are useless against body-shots.
    Jadenanniesprinkles
  • jimmorrison369jimmorrison369 Member Posts: 1,994
    At one point (about 7 months ago) I had a combination of survivor and equipment that had 100% critical hit. He had 2 possible outcomes: critical hit or body-shot. 0% normal hit.
    anniesprinkles
  • JadenJaden Member Posts: 3,066
    It's not that I don't believe you, it just doesn't make much sense... but some things in this game don't, so that's nothing new.

    I just wonder what I was confusing this with, but I can't find anything.

    Anyways, I wasn't a fan of power strike on bruisers anyway, so... nothing changed. ;)
    Leader of Morbid Sinners and Morbid Spirits

    Morbid Survivors are looking for you! If you are looking for a new guild, PM me.
  • jimmorrison369jimmorrison369 Member Posts: 1,994
    It's just a shame.
    It is the exact reason why everybody wants pierce for high level. Because all other traits become useless when body-shot comes in to play.
    Jadenanniesprinkles
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