Punish Trait vs. Retaliate on Bruisers

Was hoping to pick the brains of some of the veterans and numbers folks here:

As described in-game:

Retaliate at Level 6: 78% of Base Damage
Punish at Level 6: 80% of Regular Damage

The overall question is "Among the two traits at level 6, which trait does the most damage"?

Some of the sub-questions are:
- What is the difference between Base Damage and Regular Damage?
- Does the Strong trait strip away from Base Damage calculations? Regular Damage calculations?
- Are there other considerations aside from overall damage that would make one more desirable over the other? For example if a Retaliate attack triggers a stun on a stunnable enemy, but a Punish attack doesn't (I know both attacks will stun, this was just the first example that came to mind).

Many thanks!
DLichbigbeanoAvengerssligoemladyfarleigh13PutchucoRedEye52
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Comments

  • JadenJaden Member Posts: 3,067
    Punish has another big advantage: it works with overwatch.

    The only thing I have noticed is that my bruiser is more likely to hit a walker that is already stunned than one that isn't. Doesn't have to mean anything.

    Oh, and with Morgan's staff and punish, you can hit more than one adjacent enemy. I think with retaliate you are only going to hit the one that has hit you if they have also moved (could be wrong about that, though).
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  • jimmorrison369jimmorrison369 Member Posts: 2,065
    Retaliate will hit multiple targets if they are already standing on the right spot.

    I know this from scouts with the spear.
    If you have 2 walkers already standing behind each other. If the first one hits you, the spear will hit both targets on retaliate.
    bigbeanoMizTyp_herian
  • jimmorrison369jimmorrison369 Member Posts: 2,065
    Punish is in the end of the enemy's turn though.
    This means that al enemies already made their move. So there is a bigger chance to hit multiple targets.

    With retaliate the enemies need to be within hitting distance at the beginning of the enemies turn. With punish they need to be in hitting range at the end of the turn.
    This only matters when you have bruiser weapon with area attack.
    Jadentabernacbigbeanoladyfarleigh13
  • AvengersAvengers Member Posts: 674
    I wish I had punish to test it out (and confirm the overwatch and retaliate thing) but yes, overall punish is better because of the above reasons.
    To reiterate: more damage from punish & more likely to hit multiple enemies since it's at the end of enemy turn. Also: can work with overwatch and retaliate (needs confirmation) AND it doesn't mandate you getting hurt (although since punish is only for bruisers and works on adjacent enemies, someone is likely to take damage, whether that be the bruiser or another survivor).
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  • JadenJaden Member Posts: 3,067
    I wish I had one with both retaliate and punish - but I only have either of them (so I only know about overwatch and punish).

    I think I heard that you can attack, retaliate and punish. Or overwatch and punish (which I can confirm).

    But as far as I know, overwatch and retaliate don't work together. So if you overwatch, you would only have overwatch and punish, right?
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  • tabernactabernac Member Posts: 807
    Jaden said:

    I wish I had one with both retaliate and punish - but I only have either of them (so I only know about overwatch and punish).

    I think I heard that you can attack, retaliate and punish. Or overwatch and punish (which I can confirm).

    But as far as I know, overwatch and retaliate don't work together. So if you overwatch, you would only have overwatch and punish, right?

    I have a guildmate that has a Retaliate/Punish Bruiser and he has confirmed that she can Attack, Retaliate when struck, and then Punish. I lovingly call it the "Triple Tap".

    You're right about Overwatch. Punish for sure triggers, but Retaliate for sure does not.
    bigbeanojimmorrison369Jadenp_herian
  • dandancar77dandancar77 Member Posts: 332
    I can confirm the "triple tap" effect. My bruiser here can attack, retaliate, then punish - all in one turn. Shes GREAT for Archives while equipped with Morgan's staff :)
    JadentabernacR2runfastbigbeano
  • tabernactabernac Member Posts: 807
    DLich said:

    I don't use bruisers in anything other than outposts

    @DLich - You aren't using them at all even for this current Challenge with the buff? What about maps in other challenges, for example on "The Archives" map? I admit I have a bit of a soft spot for Bruisers....

  • tallinietallinie Member Posts: 393
    i understand punish is extremely powerful trait and must-have for any new bruiser to build up. but before doing so, i would like to know what are the current plans to nerf it (any dates to publish yet?) and what will be new damage after that i.e. is it halved or what?
    Jadencrambert_necCaptainslayer
  • crambert_neccrambert_nec Member Posts: 1,376
    What's everyone's thoughts on what perfect bruiser traits would be now? I agree that Punish is a must. My current 7* bruiser has Lucky, Dodge, Iron Skin, Retaliate, and Strong. I'm looking to build a second one with Punish. Which of those 5 traits would you discard for Punish? I was thinking Strong.
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  • AvengersAvengers Member Posts: 674
    Yup strong is my first choice on which to sub out for punish. But I don't think dodge is that great at high lvls so...especially when NG finally gets overwatch and retaliate working together I would want: luck, iron skin, punish, retaliate, defensive stance. Attack and defence both
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  • DLichDLich Member Posts: 5,541
    @tabernac I built my team for offense. If on average bruiser buffs are once every 6 weeks I can't find myself making radio calls and picking bruiser tokens in the off chance I'll receive an epic bruiser with 4 good traits to upgrade the 5th.

    I only choose bruiser if it's presented as epic or better. And so far I haven't gotten any epic bruisers with punish.

    If I'm presented with 3 rares in a 15 call I'll choose anything other than bruiser everytime. One of my assaults have ruthless but I haven't gotten enough assault tokens to promote to pink so he doesn't get used as much as Abraham and my 2 pink star assault.

    Maybe one day the stars will align.

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  • avelardezavelardez Member Posts: 1,320
    My Punisher shall see soon.
    JackBauerbigbeanosligoemtabernac
  • sligoemsligoem Member Posts: 330
    Here's mine...unlocked strong as fifth trait, no luck. Upgraded and using until I pull something more optimal.
    tabernac
  • sligoemsligoem Member Posts: 330
    This one with ruthless fifth trait. Keeping but not upgrading, likely to retire. Thoughts? My other bruisers: one with ideal traits prior to the introduction of new traits and one with luck/retaliate/iron skin/DD that I use in outpost defense.
  • MabikiMabiki Member Posts: 1,732
    sligoem said:

    This one with ruthless fifth trait. Keeping but not upgrading, likely to retire. Thoughts? My other bruisers: one with ideal traits prior to the introduction of new traits and one with luck/retaliate/iron skin/DD that I use in outpost defense.

    Personally, I would keep that bad boy. I don't think Ruthless as quite as useful on Bruisers as with classes that do more damage, but it's still useful. Iron skin might be better depending how you play, but all of the traits are ones on my list of desirables.
    sligoem
  • TatdJdmTatdJdm Member Posts: 23
    I love punish. I'm praying my epic bruiser doesn't get infected with Bullet dodge when it's time for a promotion.
    David_H79tabernac
  • JackBauerJackBauer Member Posts: 1,550
    Or vigiliant :#
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    TatdJdm
  • GovernatorGovernator Member Posts: 4,411
    I like the concept of Punish, but I still don't have a Bruiser worth promoting to really try it out.
  • gespuergespuer Member Posts: 1,565
    Punish is great for op
  • gespuergespuer Member Posts: 1,565
    Didn't somebody mentioned that triple hits are not gonna happen?
    vshield50bigbeano
  • DoTakDoTak Member Posts: 1,964
    Damn, where can I get one of those
    vshield50Governator
  • gespuergespuer Member Posts: 1,565
    BTW
    Isn't "punishment" restrict to moderation?
    vshield50GovernatorJadenbigbeano
  • tabernactabernac Member Posts: 807
    gespuer said:

    Didn't somebody mentioned that triple hits are not gonna happen?

    Triple hits don't work on Overwatch.

    You see the Triple Tap when your Bruiser attacks on their turn (1), then gets struck and Retaliate is triggered (2), and then if there is still an adjacent enemy at the end of the Zeds turn, Punish is triggered (3).

    vshield50GovernatorJaden
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