Body Shots and Critical Hit

Guys, I always had this doubt regarding critical hits and body shots.

In higher RSL, where bodyshots are way more frequent, having a higher critical chance helps in avoiding the body shots?

I mean, how the game calculates those conditions? First it roll rng for bodyshot and only after confirming that the attack is not a bodyshot it will roll the chance for a critical?

If so, then having a high critical chance is rather pointless in higher RSL missions, right?

Asking this because I am evaluating if it is worth to go after % crit chance badges, or go for flat damage ones.

Comments

  • psychwolfpsychwolf Member Posts: 1,114
    I was wondering this myself. I'm guessing that body shots override the chance of getting a critical hit. That's why people prefer piercing.
  • I_Am_PsychoI_Am_Psycho Member Posts: 1,431
    dgraminho said:

    Asking this because I am evaluating if it is worth to go after % crit chance badges, or go for flat damage ones.

    You solved the magic formula to get a desired badge?
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  • mik81mik81 Member Posts: 360
    edited September 2017
    How I always understand it and I'd think I read it somewhere just can't find it is:
    1) Roll to body shoot. If you get a body shoot apply -50% dmg to a regular attack
    2) Roll to Crit. If you crit apply 50% to a regular attack

    So at high lvls you can't never crit, you can't have an attack with +50%, but a crit negates the -50% dmg on the body shoot and you get a regular attack. -50%+50%=0

    Edit: if not using piercing a guaranteed body shoot happens when walker lever is =>5 (RSL or ASL)
    Troublemaker
  • mik81mik81 Member Posts: 360
    Sorry for the double post but I'd think what I say is correct:

    On this video from @Terminates https://youtube.com/watch?v=HGZPjY7rG9k
    You can see on 1:23 (aprox) Shasha getting a regular attack against a lvl 30 walker, not a body a shoot.
    Shasha is 6 stars so her RSL or ASL is 22(21+1), there is 8 lvl difference and still she is getting a regular attack. Actually when killing that walker all the chars are getting regular attacks Sekushi is 8 stars (RSL 21+3) Bam is 9 stars ( RSL 21+4) None of them should be able to get a regular attack on a lvl 30 walker. But they are, so that makes me thing that they got a body shoot and then crit, -50%+50% = regular attack.

    Thanks to @Terminates for the Video!
    Troublemaker
  • tabernactabernac Member Posts: 734
    @mik81 I think Terminates is using weapons that all have piercing (Sasha and Bam both have Crossbows and I know some of the Crossbow variants have Gold Piercing).

    My guess would be that she isn't making successful Critical Hit rolls, but rather that she is making successful Piercing rolls.
    David_H79
  • mik81mik81 Member Posts: 360
    @tabernac It could be possible, gold piercing is 30% body shoot reduction. It is not a chance but a 30% body shot reduction... so if I read it correctly even on a guaranteed body shoot due to the lvl difference you could avoid it 3/10.

    I find this topic very interesting, I can't really go that far away, but would it be possible that anyone would do some testing. See if you can get a non body shoot attack on RSL +5 without using piercing... The only way I've seen a crit on higher RSL are using a charge attack that auto crits.

    Anyway, on this scenario, guaranteed body shot, but you negates it due to piercing, theoretically you could also crit... right?
  • jimmorrison369jimmorrison369 Member Posts: 1,864
    These traits are set up to be each others opposites.
    Accurate increases damage, body-shots lowers it.
    When Walker level is higher, accurate goes lower. Body shots increase.
    When Walker level is lower, accurate goes higher. Body shots decrease.

    But body-shot and critical are 2 different traits,
    A body-shot always goes first,
    accurate can't happen when it is a body-shot.
    tabernacDavid_H79
  • DLichDLich Member Posts: 5,526
    mik81 said:

    How I always understand it and I'd think I read it somewhere just can't find it is:
    1) Roll to body shoot. If you get a body shoot apply -50% dmg to a regular attack
    2) Roll to Crit. If you crit apply 50% to a regular attack

    So at high lvls you can't never crit, you can't have an attack with +50%, but a crit negates the -50% dmg on the body shoot and you get a regular attack. -50%+50%=0

    Edit: if not using piercing a guaranteed body shoot happens when walker lever is =>5 (RSL or ASL)

    I don’t think this is correct.

    You’ve explained dodge and crit. If your attack would have been a crit and the opponent would have been a dodge then the result is a normal hit. But those same mechanics don’t apply to crit and body shots.

    As the level of your opponents increase your chance for body shots increases. Accuracy badges and traits don’t fix this. Otherwise players with 80% as max would normal hit every time.

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  • mik81mik81 Member Posts: 360
    So on high RSL stacking crit chance isn't that good since you'll be capped by body shoots, and having piercing(golden) will only allow you to crit 3/10 So stacking more damage would be at the end better than been cap on crit chance. Why NG capped the crit chance at 90% if the real limiting factor here is a body shoot?

    I see that you could crit on lower RSL 10/10 but 9/10 isn't that much difference... and at some point you get body shoots to limit your crit chance...
    Troublemaker
  • DLichDLich Member Posts: 5,526
    edited September 2017
    This is why I think body shot and crit are in completely separate rolls.

    If your chance to body shot is increased as the opponents level increases there comes a point where it feels like it’s almost 100% (it’s not but it’s almost expected to be a body shot)

    Here’s my hypothesis on it. Let’s assume you’re chances to not body shot are 5% and your chance to crit is 80%

    Out of every 100 hits, 95 of them would be a body shot. Out of the remaining 5, 4 of them should be a critical hit (that’s because 80% of the 5 that aren’t body shots is 4 out of 5). Only 1 of the 100 hits would be normal.

    Now let’s be more realistic with the numbers. Badges and traits at f2p levels are closer to 20% crit chance.

    100 hits, 95% are body shots = 95 body shot hits
    5 hits non body shot; 20% of those are crit (1 in 5) the remaining 4 are normal hits.

    As you increase in opponent strength, that 95% goes higher and higher and ONLY piercing brings it down.

    Let’s suppose there’s 20% piercing when normally there would be 95% body shots. That results in 95% - 20% = 75%.

    Now out of 100 hits only 75 would be body shots. Of the remaining 25 hits if there is 20% crit chance then 5 of them would be crit and remaining 20 would be normal.

    Piercing, indirectly, increases the chance of a crit hit happening because it directly lowers the chance of a body shot. This may all sound confusing but increasing accuracy and crit chance WILL ONLY have a bearing on gameplay if piercing is in play and the chance of a non body shot is increased.

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  • DLichDLich Member Posts: 5,526
    The term “ASL” was coined by @OneLessTitan I like the term because it accounts for stars.

    It’s true that at +5 of your survivor level you’re almost guaranteed a body shot. But it’s been said on the forum by admins in the past that pink stars help with lowering body shots.

    What he feels, and I believe is true, that the +5 takes your pinks into account.

    So if your survivor is lvl 22 then +5 is 27. But if you have 2 pink stars on that lvl 22 then it’s “24” and it’s +5 from that which is rsl 29

    So a legendary survivor lvl 22 with 0 pink stars tops out on rsl 27 survivors body shot chance the same way a lvl 22 survivor with 2 pink stars tops out on rsl 29.

    At least that’s my understanding of “ASL” = Actual Survivor Level

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  • TroublemakerTroublemaker Member Posts: 1,157
    People would pay for this info. You hear NG? Money!
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  • SerpSerp Member Posts: 610
    edited September 2017
    I will have to remember to pay close attention when I get that high this week. With the assault bonus I should get to rsl 30. My Best assault is 8* so asl would be 25. And if I feel froggy enough I have a weapon without piercing that I could test the theory with.
    JerryDixontabernacDLichCoon
  • mik81mik81 Member Posts: 360
    So basically when you get +4RSL and beyond you only have piercing wrestler and damage, health and damage reduction.... Although even health and damage reduction becomes useless since a single hit becomes in an instant death or struggle on most of the classes at least.

    I just don't get why they have to cap critical hit since it is already limited by body shoots... Low RSL are not an issue you don't need that crit.

    Assuming that all of this is correct on a high end build you'll be looking for Piercing, wrestling and then as much damage as possible. Since you can't stack more than 3 badges of the same type you could have damage reduction or health. Critical hit chances and critical damage therefore seem useless.

    I don't get it...


    DLich
  • mik81mik81 Member Posts: 360
    I just did some testing... Daryl lvl 14 got a regular attack against a lvl 21 Walker with no piercing, he was stacking around 35% crit chances.... Can anyone please try to replicate the experiment? Just need a low lvl survivor, 5 gas and as much crit chance as you can on that low survivor(consider using Daryl or Carol as a leader), a scavenging mission will work just fine.

  • TroublemakerTroublemaker Member Posts: 1,157
    @mik81 all my hopes are with you on this one! GO GO GO
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  • tabernactabernac Member Posts: 734
    mik81 said:

    Critical hit chances and critical damage therefore seem useless.

    I don't get it...

    I agree with almost all of your post, but I'd tweak the part that is quoted above a little. Critical Damage badges can be useful at +4 ASL on a class like Scouts for their Charged Attacks. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but the Scout Brain Stab is always a Critical, correct?

    jimmorrison369Pic
  • mik81mik81 Member Posts: 360
    edited September 2017
    @tabernac yes shooter, hunter and scouts will benefit from that. What I don't know is if that critical damage is just added to total damage or it is also multiply by the 50% crit extra damage.

    I did some testing:
    A hunter lvl 19 (6 stars)
    Damage: 2118
    Critical Damage bonus: +881

    Regular attack against lvl 17 walker: 2071, 2157, 2018, 2026, 2071...
    Critical attack against lvl 17 walker: 4352, 4126, 4236...
    2118*1.5= 3177 +881 = 4058
    2118+881= 2999*1.5= 4498

    What do you guys think?
    Troublemakerjimmorrison369
  • mik81mik81 Member Posts: 360
    The point is that +1500(3 leg badges) extra damage would be better than 2400 +Critical damage(3 leg badges)? In which scenarios?.
    Using the same example.

    Scenario 1:
    Damage: 3618(2118+1500)
    Crit Damage bonus: 0
    Over ten attacks(assuming 7/10 body shoots 3/10 critics): (3618*.5)*7=12663 / (2618*1.5)*3= 16281 // 12663+16281=28994 (total dmg)

    Scenario 2:
    Damage: 2118
    Crit Damage bonus:2400
    Over ten attacks(assuming 7/10 body shoots 3/10 critics): (2118*.5)*7= 7413 / (4518*1.5)*3= 20331 // 7413+20331= 27744 (total dmg)

    In this example damage over crit damge gives you arounf 5% more damage.

    But:
    1) if body shoots increase over 3/7 you'll start to lose dmg
    2) You need to crit always when you are not getting a body shoot
    3) Scenario 1 has a better guaranteed dmg output, scenario 2 needs high (or charge attacks) to happen
    4) Frequently charge attacks would make scenario 2 better

    Conclusions:

    In general I'd prefer damage over critical damage, but you could have 2 guys that have damage and 1 shooter or scout that has more critical damage. If you get that critical damage specialist to charge and use frequently his charge attack, critical dmg would be better)
    Classes that doesn't have guaranteed critical charge attacks don't stack crit chance / crit dmg.
    jimmorrison369Troublemaker
  • jimmorrison369jimmorrison369 Member Posts: 1,864
    mik81 said:


    I did some testing:
    A hunter lvl 19 (6 stars)
    Damage: 2118
    Critical Damage bonus: +881

    Regular attack against lvl 17 walker: 2071, 2157, 2018, 2026, 2071...
    Critical attack against lvl 17 walker: 4352, 4126, 4236...
    2118*1.5= 3177 +881 = 4058
    2118+881= 2999*1.5= 4498

    What do you guys think?

    I think the critical damage is added as + damage, not +damage·1.5.
    Your sample doesn't guarantee either though.

    When looking at regular damage, A badge+ doesn't get multiplied by marksman, lethal or hero-boost.
    Interestingly (on a side note) a +badge DOES get multiplied by a %badge.
    mik81 said:


    In general I'd prefer damage over critical damage, but you could have 2 guys that have damage and 1 shooter or scout that has more critical damage. If you get that critical damage specialist to charge and use frequently his charge attack, critical dmg would be better)

    Couldn't agree more,
    An Assault/warrior with high critical can be interesting though, if you get them to charge.
    They can then hit a big group of walkers, it will be critical galore B).
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