Upcoming Changes to the Wrestler Trait - Question For Advocates

tabernac · October 2017

This is a serious inquiry, no cheek or snark intended.

@WeekOne and @Putchuco were the most vocal lobbyists for changes to the Wrestler trait from what I saw so I'm going to tag them on this post, but feedback from people that were advocates for a change are also encouraged to respond.

The change NG is implementing to the Wrester trait in 2.8:

"This survivor automatically attacks any walker it struggles with each turn, dealing 40% of normal attack damage." [Silver: 65%; Gold: 95%].

(Wrestle attack will ignore body shot calculations)

Do you feel that:

- The change is spot on and you're happy with it?
- The change went too far?
- The change didn't go far enough?

Appreciate your time

tabernac

DBones · October 2017

I was in the boat with @Putchuco and @WeekOne, and I still am. However, I do not think NG made the right change. Putchuco's idea, to me, was FAR superior. Simply apply the same rules to wrestler that apply to bodyshots. In other words, the % chance at killing the walker in one shot starts getting reduced the more levels above RSL you go. At some point, bodyshots are essentially 100%. What Putchuco was suggesting (I think - please correct me if I'm wrong), was the same idea (but sort of in reverse) - at some point, wrestling ability is eventually reduced to 0%. I was - and remain - a big supporter of THAT plan. I am definitely not thrilled about the way NG is "fixing" the wrestler trait.

Monsuta · October 2017

Beware, you guys are witch hunting both @Putchuco & @WeekOne
"No posting of personal information of any kind. No doxxing. No witch hunts."

mik81 · October 2017

The change is align with the existing meta.

This was the only trait that could insta kill any type of walker regardless health and level. If scouts had a charge attack capable of insta killing a walker, and I don't know if a bruiser crits with his charge ability it also kills the target etc... then wrestler would make sense on that meta.

Based on our current meta wrestler was too Over Powered and I'm guessing that is the reason why they are adjusting it. In my opinion it took too long, and it was perceived as "minor" issue until the Distance was released. Based on NG comments saying that they don't expect players to finish it, and that they designed for a mode where you will need to advance and progress by improving your survivors (via badges) I'd think they didn't expect what happened and that force them to prioritize this issue. I know what they said, but I think differently. Wrestling the Distance was too easy and they didn't accomplished their main goal with the game mode, it was a fiasco and it needed to be adjusted, they didn't do it listening to players but analyzing the way that they can accomplish their objectives. The own the game.

But NML meta is base on building up damage, revenge, punish, retaliate, etc... the adjustment to wrestler now is comparable to other traits( comparable to retaliate or revenge). In my opinion I would also let bruiser stun while wrestling(I'd think bruisers need more love), but I don't think that is how it will work... and that would be my only addition to it, I'd think it will be usable but maybe not a must trait on every single class and on every single piece of armor.

If you don't agree that wrestling was too powerful compare to other traits (the only reason to have in any class and as mandatory trait for any armor) and it wasn't aligned with the existing meta, then there is very little we can discuss about it.

I'm happy with it just because I'd like a balanced meta(not only here but in any game). I don't like to have an unique and single answer to any challenge. I'd like games where you have different resources that needs to be used in different situations. But of course that is just me.

Troublemaker · October 2017

1. The change is not spot on;

2. I’m happy with a change to Wrestler, but I don’t think this is the best. New trait seems like auto-scrap but of course needs playtest;

3. Can’t say exactly yet. I agreed about Stun Resistance and then changed my mind. No limit is good. They should just lower percentages so that 100% is impossible or VERY hard to get (in a way that needs a totally specific character/gear build to avoid exploits).

I’m extremely happy and positive about 2.8, despite not liking some details.

Pig · October 2017

In the old days, wrestler was so stupid. Any other trait would trump wrestler. Then wrestler was made a must-have that trumps any other trait (at least when facing high-level tanks, armored, exploders, and yes, even spikeys). Now I think any other trait will trump wrestler again.

Why does the pendulum have to swing all the way from one extreme to the other, and then back again? New wrestler *might* let me get one more round in the challenge than not having it. It's probably not worth taking up a trait slot.

I'm not an advocate for wrestler change, but I thought @Putchuco's suggestion was reasonable. If there had to be a nerf, that approach made sense. This is overkill.

Since there was a solution proposed that was so much more reasonable, I can't figure out why NG had to go and do this instead. Are player-originated solutions dismissed on principle?

paintbeast · October 2017

@mik81 Where did you get the idea that you'll be able to crit with the new wrestler functionality? The description clearly says it will do 40%, 65%, or 95% of NORMAL damage.

Pig · October 2017

mik81 said:
Based on NG comments saying that they don't expect players to finish it, and that they designed for a mode where you will need to advance and progress by improving your survivors (via badges) I'd think they didn't expect what happened and that force them to prioritize this issue.

I think you're right. But there was a previous LLS controversy that led to the challenge restructuring. How NG couldn't see this coming is something of a mystery.

jimmorrison369 · October 2017

I see lot's of call-back to @Putchuco idea. I'm not sure about the details, but if it meant that wrestling stopped working all together at RSL+3. Then current change is better imo. Still sucks, but still usable up to at least RSL+7.

Troublemaker · October 2017

Using Wrestler to kill walkers and move on (both in Challenges and The Distance), and then spending a ton of gold to heal and repeat is just absolute unhealthy gaming. No thinking, no variation, just repetitive “pay for progress”.

That’s the main point IMO, not if it’s an exploit or no.

I’m glad it has ended.

* edit for typo

mik81 · October 2017

paintbeast said:
@mik81 Where did you get the idea that you'll be able to crit with the new wrestler functionality? The description clearly says it will do 40%, 65%, or 95% of NORMAL damage.

You are right I thought we will get a normal attack (with some damage reduced based on the quality of the trait) that ignores body shoots and therefore it would open the chance to crit. But know that I read correctly is not an extra attack, is an special attack, that ignores body shoots. Looks to me like an additional retaliate/revenge attack. We use those traits, and in high RSL a walker attack could be an instant struggle, so this will help to bild up more damage out of a regular attack.

JackBauer · October 2017

I don't think that it was our two fellow players fault that the wrestler was changed.
The faulty person is the guy who designed the Distance without knowledge of crucial game mechanics.
I guess some executive Ego was scrached that we easily beat he Distance and in a hurry work over night shift the wrestler trait was changed.
What really surprised me because I think high level challange wrestling is an incredible income source for NG. I guess the number guy was too slow to show / prepare the data to convince the executive guy to not change it because of income loss.
(Please insert some dilbert comic here).

Edit: forgot: the change went too far. But It is in line with NG behavior: always do it better then the player community proposals.
Anyhow I will check 2.8 look and adopt my game play.

Pig · October 2017

@jimmorrison369 His proposal was more generous than that:

"6 lvls above survivor (including pink starz): wrestling fails 100% of the time.
This would mean a lvl22 triple pink survivor cannot wrestle above lvl 31 enemy
1-5 lvls above survivor: gradually more chance of failing wrestling"

http://forums.nextgames.com/walkingdead/discussion/29430/wrestling-needs-to-be-limited-and-the-time-is-now/p1

His suggestion was not very popular at the time. But now it looks ok!

Pig · October 2017

rfg1982 said:
Using Wrestler to kill walkers and move on (both in Challenges and The Distance), and then spending a ton of gold to heal and repeat is just absokute unhealthy gaming. No thinking, no variation, just repetitive “pay for progress”.

This wasn't how most of us used it in challenges. I never spent a ton of gold on healing, and I certainly had to think carefully about how to get wrestler to trigger on the tanks and armoreds instead of on the normal walkers. It was not thoughtless, not repetitive, and not paying for progress.

Pig · October 2017

JackBauer said:

The faulty person is the guy who designed the Distance without knowledge of crucial game mechanics.

I also suspect a lack of knowledge of gameplay is why this nerf looks balanced to them, when in reality it looks to me like making wrestler useless. I might be wrong, and I hope I am, because I've got millions of xp down the toilet if I'm right.

crambert_nec · October 2017

What I don't understand is how we are supposed to beat the distance without Wrestler, even if all our survivors had 4-5 pink stars and all legendary badges. When you start a map with 20 level 38+ walkers and more of them spawning each turn, how do you get through that?

mik81 · October 2017

@crambert_nec That's a nice question and I can only guess an answer.

When I read all the pre info that NG was releasing I was thinking that maps will be less populated with maybe 1 or 2 big "bosses"(I'd think they even call them like that). So you will need to get there with survivors that have their charge abilities already up, good amount of stars, good epic and leg badges, burning damage (-10% off each turn is great) etc.. and you'll need to run and some point even die strategically. You may use a good set of survivors to kill 1 of those, then another good set for the other "boss" and so on...

So in order to really beat the Distance you'll need an extensive roster of good to very good survivors. Nice badges, weapons, etc... And therefore when it was released no one could really beat it. You'll need to increase your roster, get tons of good badges, use gold to heal, etc...

Since they are releasing new traits this new game mode could be an opportunity for long players to keep those survivors investments, those pinky guys, 7, 8 and 9 stars, would be really good even with old traits, so that people could keep them and at the same time start building new survivors with newer fancier traits.

Right now you can beat the distance just with a big roster, quantity over quality. I though they wanted you to do quite the opposite, to invest en quality and not in quantity. Basically because those are long term decisions that usually help with the revenue.

JayZ · October 2017

DBones said:
I was in the boat with @Putchuco and @WeekOne, and I still am. However, I do not think NG made the right change. Putchuco's idea, to me, was FAR superior. Simply apply the same rules to wrestler that apply to bodyshots. In other words, the % chance at killing the walker in one shot starts getting reduced the more levels above RSL you go. At some point, bodyshots are essentially 100%. What Putchuco was suggesting (I think - please correct me if I'm wrong), was the same idea (but sort of in reverse) - at some point, wrestling ability is eventually reduced to 0%. I was - and remain - a big supporter of THAT plan. I am definitely not thrilled about the way NG is "fixing" the wrestler trait.

This actually seems like a terrible idea. The walkers that I need to be saved from are the ones that I body shot 100% of the time to begin with. If Wrestler won't help my 2-pink star Hunter against a level 30 fatty, then what's the point of the trait? While I obviously prefer the current Wrestler, even the new one might be better than this proposal.

crambert_nec · October 2017

@mik81 I just don't see how it's possible unless they completely abolish the body shot system, get rid of the seemingly exponential spawns on each turn, and let damage to walkers/raiders carry over with each restart.

mik81 · October 2017

I see your point and I'd think the quantity of walkers could be adjusted. Or level of walkers adjusted on spawns.

WeekOne · October 2017

tabernac said:
This is a serious inquiry, no cheek or snark intended.

@WeekOne and @Putchuco were the most vocal lobbyists for changes to the Wrestler trait from what I saw so I'm going to tag them on this post, but feedback from people that were advocates for a change are also encouraged to respond.

The change NG is implementing to the Wrester trait in 2.8:

"This survivor automatically attacks any walker it struggles with each turn, dealing 40% of normal attack damage." [Silver: 65%; Gold: 95%].

(Wrestle attack will ignore body shot calculations)

Do you feel that:

- The change is spot on and you're happy with it?
- The change went too far?
- The change didn't go far enough?

Appreciate your time

tabernac

100%

I love the idea of having to wrestle with the walker instead of instant kill.

Instant kill does not belong in NML as far as I’m concerned and I don’t believe one trait should give us a guaranteed instant kill, period.

Before some try to tell me wrestler does not instant kill “all the time”, let me reassure you all that I have the documentation to prove that it does [with a lvl 2 common wrestler armour no less] which is a complete farce to me.

Instant kill has got to go and I am happy that NG is finally getting rid of it.

As a player, I want goals and building up my survivors to be able to tackle the tough walkers and any other obstacle NML will give us is what gets me excited instead of what we have been dealing with for almost a year now.

I am looking forward to 2.8 and can’t wait to test our new wrestler trait.

WeekOne

sbf · October 2017

Another aspect that needs to be looked at is the disproportionate relationship between ranged vs. melee. NG wants us to not just use hunters and assaults, and yet this nerf affects melee much more than ranged... the up close and personal attacks of melee puts them in harm's way, so players will have to adjust accordingly and use less melee survivors.

Let's also look at the disproportionate relationship between low damage classes, assaults and bruisers, against high damage classes, scouts, shooters. This is but another stick in the eye to bruisers. Seriously, I want to use my bruisers, but they're mostly useless at higher levels and this reinforces that. There's no way that when a person uses a bat instead of a hammer wouldn't have the same amount of adrenaline kick in when they're about to get bit.

Also, let's be real about this aspect, too: this nerf is going to force many players to search for phones to try to find survivors with iron skin if their A team doesn't all have it, or grind trying to find useful iron skin badges. This will have an immense effect on folks that will be forced to restructure their A team (sure, my crew will be fine, but there are other people who play this game).

Let's also talk about trait dilution on armor. With three new traits (one of which has to do with speeding up training--so I'm looking forward to seeing the point of it as armor and for end-gamers), we now have a whole bunch of traits that can make it hard to find a usable piece of armor. Bullet proof is useless and wrestler is losing its point. Why keep bullet proof? No one likes it. Oh, it makes us grind more to try to find armor that is usable.

I'm not of the group of people who think "I've got mine, so I don't care about other players." I am not an advocate for any kind of nerf because I care about other people. If I didn't like wrestler, I just wouldn't use it. I wouldn't take my frustration out on other people.

I'd much rather keep wrestler, perhaps with a tweak that doesn't let a lvl15 survivor take down a lvl30 walker, but lets a lvl21 survivor take him down. I don't want rounds added at the bottom of the challenge to make up for lost rounds/stars at the top of the challenge. A rsl30 crate is much more useful than a rsl19 or 20 crate.

It's not the players' fault that NG didn't beta test the distance...if they did, they would not be nerfing wrestler entirely the way they are now.

Monsuta · October 2017

@WeekOne I'm curios did you use wrestler on spiked in After the Wildfire challenge?

Also if instant kill does not belong in NML, why spiked should have the ability to instant kill?

paintbeast · October 2017

@WeekOne I disagree with instant kill not having a place in this game (just not at high percentage chance).

For example: I have always wondered why their isn't a "Headshot" trait that gave a small percentage chance (gold trait topping out at say 15-20%) to instantly kill a walker. That doesn't seem game breaking, does it? And it does keep with the source material.

WeekOne · October 2017

@Monsuta I used wrestler to instant kill the spikey with my LLS with my lvl 2 common wreslter armour in The Distance after I shot it with my incidiary riffle [charged up] on a lvl 22 survivor.

The 2nd spikey took a couple of tries to take him down since my hunter wasn’t charged up.

I don’t remember After The Wildfire Challenge... sorry

WeekOne · October 2017

@paintbeast sure.... it would be nice to be able to use something like brain stab to kill a walker which would be considered instant kill but we would need to have our weapon charged up.

Wrestler’s instant kill and the success rate is non sense to me.

At this stage of the game, I shouldn’t feel confident going up against a lvl 41 walker and instant kill on wrestler trait gives us that which is wrong to me.

Mabiki · October 2017

The change is coming whether we like it or not, but I must disagree anyone has proof wrestler is a guranteed instant kill because I know from my own experience that is not correct. I posted about it previously, because I was surprised at the time I didn't get the kill.

The percentage chance might be higher than stated on the armor; but it is not always guaranteed.

TheLostOnes · October 2017

Well, congratulations are due to @WeekOne and @Putchuco

It's clear that NG respects your views very much as this isn't the first time you were able to get a change through.

What I'm more interested to hear is this: what's the next balancing issue you plan to raise? (I'd like to get a head start). And could you possibly tell NG to re-install the discounted radio call event, please?

Monsuta · October 2017

@WeekOne If our survivor don't deserve using wrestler to instant kill, why spiked should be able to instant kill our survivor? Don't you think spiked is too overpowered?

WeekOne · October 2017

If we look at Jesus as an example, he will be giving a nice % of damage per turn while he is wrestling with the walker.

If we are properly equipped, proper level, etc.... and other strong survivors helping him out, there is a good chance we will get out of the struggle and continue with the mission.

Not knowing if I am going to get out of the struggle 100% is exciting to me.

I believe this will encourage us to work on upgrading our survivors, equipment, and adding nice badges so we can properly handle the tough walkers instead of relying on wrestler’s instant kill to do the job for us.

paintbeast · October 2017

> @Monsuta said:
> @WeekOne If our survivor don't deserve using wrestler to instant kill, why spiked should be able to instant kill our survivor? Don't you think spiked is too overpowered?

Rick wrestled Winslow and lived.

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