@Monsuta I believe some tweaking needs to happen with the challenge and The Distance maps, sure. I don’t remember seeing spikey instantly kill me.
@Mabiki : I can assure you that I have the proof that my lvl 2 common wrestler armour instantly killed walkers consistently. If you want to disagree with me, tha’ts OK. I don’t really care.
EDIT: Sorry @Mabiki , I take that last comment out. Let’s just say it works 99.99% of the time and I have the video to prove it.
It's clear that NG respects your views very much as this isn't the first time you were able to get a change through.
What I'm more interested to hear is this: what's the next balancing issue you plan to raise? (I'd like to get a head start). And could you possibly tell NG to re-install the discounted radio call event, please?
Big LOL if you really think NG did it based on any player opinions....
I've said it before. If stun resistance is limited to 75% Is that limit also applied to walkers? We are not balancing a trait but setting limits on the game. Any limit should apply both ways on combat imho
@WeekOne Spiked walker instant kill your survivor while on struggling stage if you don't have wrestler trait trigger on the 1st turn, but in 2.8 it'll be instant kill in struggle. Winslow will be the king of wrestling in update 2.8.
I was actually 1 of very few whom actually liked the wrestle armor before the buff! That being said.. we also still had interrupt, luck and dodge that worked efficiently for STRATEGY!!! Seems Wrestle was NGs way of giving us a cookie after stealing our most used and sought after traits!!
Now having taken all of the traits that provide strategy, yes it (wrestle) does provide that.. I’d actually love to see the percentage of people with the so called overpowered wrestle trait that have actually completed the Distance!! Because with all of the people I know within FB groups and several guilds.. there are very few that have! It’s not as simple as ooooo wrestle that guy.. bam win!!
To the people who have complained about it... well hot damn.. if you were so against it and it sucked the fun out of the game for you soooo much, then why on God’s green earth did you continue to “exploit” it to your advantage???? Oh but now that the game will be enjoyable for you small percentage, F the rest of us that were enjoying the game the way it was!
Rant over
⚔️ Leader/Elder TheHerdReborn/TheHerdReturned⚔️ 🌟IGN: Rene 🌟 Line ID: Mystique_01
@TheLostOnes I wish I had that much power with NG cuz if I did, things would have happened much quicker lol
OK... I think I’ve answered your question and I’m fairly confident most know what my stance is on wrestler trait so this will be my last post on this thread.
Have a nice week... Enjoy your challenge this week!
> @mik81 said:
> Next "hot" tactic in the Distance it's going to be feed 9lvl survivors to the walkers!!
>
> You'll get like 4 turns of shooting while the fat one is killing and eating your friend...
The crappy 20% wrestler seemed to work way more than 1/5... I mean I haven't done a 1,000 sample... but did like 10-15 tries and I'd think it worked all the time. Don't you really think that it worked more than it should? I mean that's my perception at least. I didn't see a real need to get a golden trait, just any trait seemed to work pretty efficiently.
An alternative to the change could be to lower the chances, but I'm sure that regardless of the final numbers complains will come. It was too good, they are taking out our bazooka, RPG weapon type.....
Seem as though the devs seem to be ignoring my suggestion to alter the hit% to make it sightly better I'll throw it up here, in case they're reading this thread.
Instead of 40% bronze, 65% silver & 95% gold of normal attack making it basically useless (although not tested yet, I have a working brain)
Make it!!! bronze 100% normal attack, silver 150% normal attack & gold 200% normal attack
This will make it still useful (using our strongest survivors) upto about rsl 30 for fatties and armoured, it will completely rule out the lls tactic, we most likely won't be able to beat the distance with it (bonus for NG)
> @mik81 said:
>
> Big LOL if you really think NG did it based on any player opinions....
Big LOL if you really think that NG wasn't influenced by the leaders of two of the biggest guilds calling for a change -- here on the forum as well as on the direct slack...
(I'm not saying NG wanted the opposite but it sure made NG more confident in going down this route with that backing)
While I have never been one to use wrestler as a strategy for fighting walkers well above my level, I do find it to be useful in one regard - the ability to get out of a struggle. Currently, if my survivor gets in a struggle the trait in almost all situations will kill the walker, effectively ending the struggle and my survivor continues on in the mission. With the coming change, my survivor will no longer be able to get out of the struggle without intervention of the other team members, putting them in jeopardy of injury/struggle themselves. So now instead of one heavily injured, I will get 2 or 3 heavily injured, and that's only if I am able to inflict enough damage with my other guys to kill the walker. Which at high levels is dubious at best considering the steep body-shot curve.
Since NG is changing the wrestler trait to eliminate the insta-kill component maybe they could add in component to have a percent chance each turn to break free from the struggle in addition to percent normal damage inflicted as stated.
How many times in the show do you see a survivor tangled up with a walker and they are able to break free after a struggle and escape to run away or re-position to kill said walker. Shouldn't the game reflect that?
> @TheLostOnes said:
> > @mik81 said:
> >
> > Big LOL if you really think NG did it based on any player opinions....
>
> Big LOL if you really think that NG wasn't influenced by the leaders of two of the biggest guilds calling for a change -- here on the forum as well as on the direct slack...
>
> (I'm not saying NG wanted the opposite but it sure made NG more confident in going down this route with that backing)
>
Nah Decisions at Companies are made based on figures in a char not on opinions.
The change was necessary because they didn't accomplished any company objective with the Distance. They do what they think they need to do regardless any opinion.
Sorry but I can't agree with your statement, which is totally fine, different opinions is good for a healthy discussion
I was actually 1 of very few whom actually liked the wrestle armor before the buff! That being said.. we also still had interrupt, luck and dodge that worked efficiently for STRATEGY!!! Seems Wrestle was NGs way of giving us a cookie after stealing our most used and sought after traits!!
It's only a theory, but I actually suspect I might be indirectly responsible for the wrestler buff. I made some kind of taunt to NG that they'd never make wrestler useful. Lo and behold, they did! And I had to eat my words.
Obviously I can't say for sure whether my taunt had anything to do with it. But I've always wondered...
Bad Pig Bad to the bone! The Notorious P.I.G. "I'm stuck in forum prison, and time keeps draggin' on" "I’ve never said I’m a perfect pig, nor pretended to be someone that I’m not."
I might comment on the effectiveness of wrestler. All my regulars have silver or gold wrestler on their armour. It is very, very rare that they fail, but it does happen. Maybe only 2-3 times in the entire time I've been playing. As @Mabiki observes, that' a much higher percent than listed on the trait description!
Regarding brown wrestler, I don't have a percentage, but I absolutely can say it's not as consistent as silver and gold. I used a lot of wrestler in The Distance (duh), and I quickly learned that the guy I threw at a walker had brown wrestler, I had to be prepared to wait a turn or two. More often than not, brown wrestler would immediately kill. But in a significant number of uses, I would get the 3-turn struggle marker over the survivor and he wouldn't kill until the next turn.
If @WeekOne has video of 100% success rate with all levels of wrestler, that means you're lucky, or there's some unknown factor that makes yours more effective, or whatever. But whatever your data set, it's limited, and if you add data from others, like Mabiki and myself, then you get a more complete and more accurate picture of wrestler's effectiveness.
No one's denying it's almost always instant kill, but there is clear evidence that it's not always instant kill. Maybe I'll do some screen shots or videos on The Distance this weekend, if my word is not sufficient.
Bad Pig Bad to the bone! The Notorious P.I.G. "I'm stuck in forum prison, and time keeps draggin' on" "I’ve never said I’m a perfect pig, nor pretended to be someone that I’m not."
Someone mentioned the ranged-vs-melee issue, and I think that's very significant here. This nerf will hurt melee badly. Obviously bruisers will be really poor wrestlers. And all melee's need to get close to walkers means they're more likely to get grabbed into a struggle.
I want to support this reasoning with anecdotal evidence from how and when I use melee at high levels. They come out when spawn control is vital. Even when they're body shotting against super high level walkers, if you can keep the number of walkers down with threat reduction and silent melee kills, you can get through.
By the time that's the worry, I'm normally at rather high levels, where no matter what team I use there's a chance (or even a certainty) that I'll have to wrestle. My ranged team could 3 star earlier when my melee team couldn't. Now my melee team can 1 star when my ranged team wouldn't even be able to finish the mission.
What this means post-nerf, I think, is that the melee team will often warm the bench the whole challenge. At mid-high levels, my ranged team will do the job better. But at higher levels when I need the spawn control but there's a risk of struggle, melee won't be much use any more. I'll just have to quit the challenge earlier without having used melee at all.
There will be exceptions to this on a challenge-by-challenge basis, and a map-by-map basis, but as a general rule this is how, why, and when I field a melee team. The problem, then, is that this nerf is NOT opening up new strategies. It's closing down an existing strategy, at least for me. I don't think melee teams will be a viable strategy in most the cases where I tend to use them.
Bad Pig Bad to the bone! The Notorious P.I.G. "I'm stuck in forum prison, and time keeps draggin' on" "I’ve never said I’m a perfect pig, nor pretended to be someone that I’m not."
@Pig I found that if you combine common lvl 1 wrestler armor with a common lvl 1 weapon with luck (and obviously remember to spend 70 xp and 10 seconds to upgrade each one) then your wrestling success rate is at about 90-95%.
And in the 5-10% of the cases you don't kill the walker in the first turn, there's a 90-95% you kill him in the second.
So maybe the glitch that makes wrestling work more than intended is linked to luck stacking much more than it's supposed to?
Nah Decisions at Companies are made based on figures in a char not on opinions. The change was necessary because they didn't accomplished any company objective with the Distance. They do what they think they need to do regardless any opinion. Sorry but I can't agree with your statement, which is totally fine, different opinions is good for a healthy discussion
@mik81 sure thing my friend, no ill will, we just disagree. But it's an interesting discussion because it touches upon the very point of this forum.
A good friend of mine recently made his final post here, saying the forum only has value for people who are obsessed with rodents or spreadsheets as NG ignores us completely -- I respectfully disagree with him and you. Here's why.
Companies don't make decisions based only on charts and analysis. People tend to give businessmen waaaay too much credit for rational thinking.
A lot of corporate decisions are based on weird things like personal preference, faulty analogies -- did you hear that one @DLich -- habit, gut reaction or even superstition.
Add to that, the fact that Next Games is a gaming company where the corporate structure tends to be more flaky and the executives less professional (no offense Mr. Next Game CEO).
Furthermore, even if @Shteevie and the other folks who interact with us tried to be 100% rational and to ignore our pleas completely, they wouldn't succeed.
It's simply against human nature to interact with others and listen to their suggestions for hours each day without being influenced. And that's not because @Shteevie et. al. are not professional, that's just because they are human beings.
(Again, let me reiterate that I believe that NG was already considering a wrestler nerf before the advocates here on the direct slack with NG requested a change. So my point is the advocates successfully influenced NG, but didn't 100% lead the company's hand)
> A lot of corporate decisions are based on weird things like personal preference, faulty analogies -- did you hear that one @DLich -- habit, gut reaction or even superstition.
I'm infamous for faulty analogies.
| OG | NOC | USA | UK | CA | CQR | UC | RAD | ZEN |
> @TheLostOnes said:
>
> A good friend of mine recently made his final post here, saying the forum only has value for people who are obsessed with rodents or spreadsheets as NG ignores us completely -- I respectfully disagree with him and you.
From what I see, you're giving a Like reaction to his comment. But you're actually disagree with him?
I'm lost.
> A good friend of mine recently made his final post here, saying the forum only has value for people who are obsessed with rodents or spreadsheets as NG ignores us completely -- I respectfully disagree with him and you.
From what I see, you're giving a Like reaction to his comment. But you're actually disagree with him?
I'm lost.
I reserve my use of the disagree button for people who abuse others.
In this case, I liked his comment even though I didn't agree with the bit he said about the forum.
I reserve my use of the disagree button for people who abuse others.
In this case, I liked his comment even though I didn't agree with the bit he said about the forum.
Imagine that... people can respectfully disagree without resorting to personal insults and crazy, baseless accusations... Who knew?
Everyone’s got two wolves inside them. One is anger, envy, pride. The other…truth, kindness. Every day they tear each other apart. But it’s not the better wolf that wins. It’s the one you feed.
I don't know I guess everything can be possible. I've working over 20 years in corporate environments, assisting board of directors and reporting CEOs. Every time I wanted to get his attention I went with a char, some figures and a way to increase the revenue, in my personal experience that's what have worked. When I was at the business school they taught me the same. Life has their exceptions of course, and maybe NG is one of them. But statistically and not having a clue I'd always will have to think that decisions are made based in rational business analysis more than on some opinions from random customers.
Even if we agree that they could be influence by certain people, they are just a minority according what I'm seen on the forum. Wrestler was a good thing (I didn't like it for other reasons I already explained) something that help players to get further, get more rewards, it was our bazooka weapon, it seems logical to me that when you are taking that from players they won't be happy about it. So assuming all the above is true, why to listen a small minority, why to cater to them?? I'm sure many other guild leaders, and "influence people" have said no so the only explanation I can find is that they are not doing this because of what we think, majority or minority, but taking in consideration other stuff, most likely business analysis.
Here is my guess: the objective with the Distance was to give a hard mode game that will require all kind of resources. Pink survivors, large quality roster, different types of high end weapons, and of course tons of quality badges and gold for healing and repeating.... Is hard to achieve that without spending a dime here, really hard, so most likely the Distance will help bringing more revenue, and long term revenue, because you can achieve that in couple weeks.
What happened? The LLS plus wrestling killed that. Competitive players the ones that this game was designed that can clear with their current roster, their current weapons and 50-80 phones, or even less(many of them without even phones...). Those phones aren't hard to get by just playing the game and many players had them already or just a roster large enough to deal with.... so there isn't a need to get more pinks, specific trait weapons, tons of leg badges, pay to heal, etc... So they looked their forecast, their real numbers, and they say what the heck!, we need to do something here. Changing wrestler is the logical movement to be back on business.
The Distance is an investment in money, time and NG resources, it needs to bring more revenue. Wrestler had to die, end of the history.
Comments
@Mabiki : I can assure you that I have the proof that my lvl 2 common wrestler armour instantly killed walkers consistently. If you want to disagree with me, tha’ts OK.
I don’t really care.
EDIT: Sorry @Mabiki , I take that last comment out. Let’s just say it works 99.99% of the time and I have the video to prove it.
I've said it before. If stun resistance is limited to 75% Is that limit also applied to walkers? We are not balancing a trait but setting limits on the game. Any limit should apply both ways on combat imho
Winslow will be the king of wrestling in update 2.8.
#WrestlingKingWinslow in 2.8
Now having taken all of the traits that provide strategy, yes it (wrestle) does provide that.. I’d actually love to see the percentage of people with the so called overpowered wrestle trait that have actually completed the Distance!! Because with all of the people I know within FB groups and several guilds.. there are very few that have! It’s not as simple as ooooo wrestle that guy.. bam win!!
To the people who have complained about it... well hot damn.. if you were so against it and it sucked the fun out of the game for you soooo much, then why on God’s green earth did you continue to “exploit” it to your advantage???? Oh but now that the game will be enjoyable for you small percentage, F the rest of us that were enjoying the game the way it was!
Rant over
🌟IGN: Rene 🌟 Line ID: Mystique_01
You'll get like 4 turns of shooting while the fat one is killing and eating your friend...
OK... I think I’ve answered your question and I’m fairly confident most know what my stance is on wrestler trait so this will be my last post on this thread.
Have a nice week... Enjoy your challenge this week!
WeekOne
I won't argue with "consistently."
Even "remarkably consistently."
Just not guaranteed.
> Next "hot" tactic in the Distance it's going to be feed 9lvl survivors to the walkers!!
>
> You'll get like 4 turns of shooting while the fat one is killing and eating your friend...
Damn! That lvl 9 got Shaned!
The crappy 20% wrestler seemed to work way more than 1/5... I mean I haven't done a 1,000 sample... but did like 10-15 tries and I'd think it worked all the time. Don't you really think that it worked more than it should? I mean that's my perception at least. I didn't see a real need to get a golden trait, just any trait seemed to work pretty efficiently.
An alternative to the change could be to lower the chances, but I'm sure that regardless of the final numbers complains will come. It was too good, they are taking out our bazooka, RPG weapon type.....
Instead of 40% bronze, 65% silver & 95% gold of normal attack making it basically useless (although not tested yet, I have a working brain)
Make it!!! bronze 100% normal attack, silver 150% normal attack & gold 200% normal attack
This will make it still useful (using our strongest survivors) upto about rsl 30 for fatties and armoured, it will completely rule out the lls tactic, we most likely won't be able to beat the distance with it (bonus for NG)
>
> Big LOL if you really think NG did it based on any player opinions....
Big LOL if you really think that NG wasn't influenced by the leaders of two of the biggest guilds calling for a change -- here on the forum as well as on the direct slack...
(I'm not saying NG wanted the opposite but it sure made NG more confident in going down this route with that backing)
Check out the DMZ guild. We're recruiting. Here.
Since NG is changing the wrestler trait to eliminate the insta-kill component maybe they could add in component to have a percent chance each turn to break free from the struggle in addition to percent normal damage inflicted as stated.
How many times in the show do you see a survivor tangled up with a walker and they are able to break free after a struggle and escape to run away or re-position to kill said walker. Shouldn't the game reflect that?
> > @mik81 said:
> >
> > Big LOL if you really think NG did it based on any player opinions....
>
> Big LOL if you really think that NG wasn't influenced by the leaders of two of the biggest guilds calling for a change -- here on the forum as well as on the direct slack...
>
> (I'm not saying NG wanted the opposite but it sure made NG more confident in going down this route with that backing)
>
Nah Decisions at Companies are made based on figures in a char not on opinions.
The change was necessary because they didn't accomplished any company objective with the Distance. They do what they think they need to do regardless any opinion.
Sorry but I can't agree with your statement, which is totally fine, different opinions is good for a healthy discussion
Again, if you see any posts breaking the rules please use the report function.
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Obviously I can't say for sure whether my taunt had anything to do with it. But I've always wondered...
Bad to the bone!
The Notorious P.I.G.
"I'm stuck in forum prison, and time keeps draggin' on"
"I’ve never said I’m a perfect pig, nor pretended to be someone that I’m not."
Regarding brown wrestler, I don't have a percentage, but I absolutely can say it's not as consistent as silver and gold. I used a lot of wrestler in The Distance (duh), and I quickly learned that the guy I threw at a walker had brown wrestler, I had to be prepared to wait a turn or two. More often than not, brown wrestler would immediately kill. But in a significant number of uses, I would get the 3-turn struggle marker over the survivor and he wouldn't kill until the next turn.
If @WeekOne has video of 100% success rate with all levels of wrestler, that means you're lucky, or there's some unknown factor that makes yours more effective, or whatever. But whatever your data set, it's limited, and if you add data from others, like Mabiki and myself, then you get a more complete and more accurate picture of wrestler's effectiveness.
No one's denying it's almost always instant kill, but there is clear evidence that it's not always instant kill. Maybe I'll do some screen shots or videos on The Distance this weekend, if my word is not sufficient.
Bad to the bone!
The Notorious P.I.G.
"I'm stuck in forum prison, and time keeps draggin' on"
"I’ve never said I’m a perfect pig, nor pretended to be someone that I’m not."
I want to support this reasoning with anecdotal evidence from how and when I use melee at high levels. They come out when spawn control is vital. Even when they're body shotting against super high level walkers, if you can keep the number of walkers down with threat reduction and silent melee kills, you can get through.
By the time that's the worry, I'm normally at rather high levels, where no matter what team I use there's a chance (or even a certainty) that I'll have to wrestle. My ranged team could 3 star earlier when my melee team couldn't. Now my melee team can 1 star when my ranged team wouldn't even be able to finish the mission.
What this means post-nerf, I think, is that the melee team will often warm the bench the whole challenge. At mid-high levels, my ranged team will do the job better. But at higher levels when I need the spawn control but there's a risk of struggle, melee won't be much use any more. I'll just have to quit the challenge earlier without having used melee at all.
There will be exceptions to this on a challenge-by-challenge basis, and a map-by-map basis, but as a general rule this is how, why, and when I field a melee team. The problem, then, is that this nerf is NOT opening up new strategies. It's closing down an existing strategy, at least for me. I don't think melee teams will be a viable strategy in most the cases where I tend to use them.
Bad to the bone!
The Notorious P.I.G.
"I'm stuck in forum prison, and time keeps draggin' on"
"I’ve never said I’m a perfect pig, nor pretended to be someone that I’m not."
And in the 5-10% of the cases you don't kill the walker in the first turn, there's a 90-95% you kill him in the second.
So maybe the glitch that makes wrestling work more than intended is linked to luck stacking much more than it's supposed to?
Check out the DMZ guild. We're recruiting. Here.
Everybody who don´t have him?
Nah Decisions at Companies are made based on figures in a char not on opinions.
The change was necessary because they didn't accomplished any company objective with the Distance. They do what they think they need to do regardless any opinion.
Sorry but I can't agree with your statement, which is totally fine, different opinions is good for a healthy discussion
@mik81 sure thing my friend, no ill will, we just disagree. But it's an interesting discussion because it touches upon the very point of this forum.
A good friend of mine recently made his final post here, saying the forum only has value for people who are obsessed with rodents or spreadsheets as NG ignores us completely -- I respectfully disagree with him and you. Here's why.
Companies don't make decisions based only on charts and analysis. People tend to give businessmen waaaay too much credit for rational thinking.
A lot of corporate decisions are based on weird things like personal preference, faulty analogies -- did you hear that one @DLich
Add to that, the fact that Next Games is a gaming company where the corporate structure tends to be more flaky and the executives less professional (no offense Mr. Next Game CEO).
Furthermore, even if @Shteevie and the other folks who interact with us tried to be 100% rational and to ignore our pleas completely, they wouldn't succeed.
It's simply against human nature to interact with others and listen to their suggestions for hours each day without being influenced. And that's not because @Shteevie et. al. are not professional, that's just because they are human beings.
(Again, let me reiterate that I believe that NG was already considering a wrestler nerf before the advocates here on the direct slack with NG requested a change. So my point is the advocates successfully influenced NG, but didn't 100% lead the company's hand)
Check out the DMZ guild. We're recruiting. Here.
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>
> A good friend of mine recently made his final post here, saying the forum only has value for people who are obsessed with rodents or spreadsheets as NG ignores us completely -- I respectfully disagree with him and you.
From what I see, you're giving a Like reaction to his comment. But you're actually disagree with him?
I'm lost.
In this case, I liked his comment even though I didn't agree with the bit he said about the forum.
Check out the DMZ guild. We're recruiting. Here.
But it’s not the better wolf that wins. It’s the one you feed.
Contact [email protected] or send @Bill_ZRT a message to join DTP today!
I don't know I guess everything can be possible. I've working over 20 years in corporate environments, assisting board of directors and reporting CEOs. Every time I wanted to get his attention I went with a char, some figures and a way to increase the revenue, in my personal experience that's what have worked. When I was at the business school they taught me the same. Life has their exceptions of course, and maybe NG is one of them. But statistically and not having a clue I'd always will have to think that decisions are made based in rational business analysis more than on some opinions from random customers.
Even if we agree that they could be influence by certain people, they are just a minority according what I'm seen on the forum. Wrestler was a good thing (I didn't like it for other reasons I already explained) something that help players to get further, get more rewards, it was our bazooka weapon, it seems logical to me that when you are taking that from players they won't be happy about it. So assuming all the above is true, why to listen a small minority, why to cater to them?? I'm sure many other guild leaders, and "influence people" have said no so the only explanation I can find is that they are not doing this because of what we think, majority or minority, but taking in consideration other stuff, most likely business analysis.
Here is my guess: the objective with the Distance was to give a hard mode game that will require all kind of resources. Pink survivors, large quality roster, different types of high end weapons, and of course tons of quality badges and gold for healing and repeating.... Is hard to achieve that without spending a dime here, really hard, so most likely the Distance will help bringing more revenue, and long term revenue, because you can achieve that in couple weeks.
What happened? The LLS plus wrestling killed that. Competitive players the ones that this game was designed that can clear with their current roster, their current weapons and 50-80 phones, or even less(many of them without even phones...). Those phones aren't hard to get by just playing the game and many players had them already or just a roster large enough to deal with.... so there isn't a need to get more pinks, specific trait weapons, tons of leg badges, pay to heal, etc... So they looked their forecast, their real numbers, and they say what the heck!, we need to do something here. Changing wrestler is the logical movement to be back on business.
The Distance is an investment in money, time and NG resources, it needs to bring more revenue. Wrestler had to die, end of the history.