Tuning challenge difficulty

I hate the low level grind in challenges and am ready to quit the game for it. But before doing so, I still try once more if NG hears us end gamers.

Could we have two difficulty levels for challenges? "Normal" as currently, starting at rsl14. And "Hard" starting at rsl 26 but quadruple rounds and double stars all the way. Even I would probably be losing a few stars by playing Hard mode, at least I would keep my mental sanity and family.
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  • capibaracapibara Member Posts: 5,627
    Yes...when the game turns interesting at 27 those 20+ rounds before are very boring...
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  • tallinietallinie Member Posts: 356
    @DLich True, I forgot that now its already rsl 19 that has triple rounds. So hard difficulty starting at rsl 25 would give better match. Most people choosing hard difficulty would probably reach at least rsl 30 anyways..

    I really wish that NG would choose to implement hard difficulty mode for challenges. Those who love grinding and/or like to start easy could still go with normal difficulty.
    DLichbigbeanoSlavaS
  • DLichDLich Member Posts: 5,526
    i got you @tallinie

    This is assuming perfect stars... the point in which you'd earn more under a "Start at RSL 25, quadruple rounds and double star rewards" is once you defeat 29.4

    43 Rounds in the current system would equal 20 in this proposed system.

    The point in which you earn more stars (potentially) in the new system would be RSL 29.4 (round 20) which equates to RSL 31.1 (round 43) in the current one.



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  • LightfeetLightfeet Member Posts: 1,062
    Lowered starting RSL and granting round passes for skipped rounds as well brought back the grind for high(er) lvl players. It of course helps lower lvls, who complained about not getting doubled round passes, if they couldn't reach the sweet spot (5+ passes) and thus it in general is a good idea, but I think there should be - at least a slight - benefit for the players who are squeezing through the last rounds, where other ppl don't even would take delight in doing so.

    I fully understand that NG doesn't give out double round passes after 5 rounds, now that the skipped rounds count as well, but there should be some kind of benefit for reaching higher numbers of round passes. Maybe sth. like a bonus system? For each 5 earned round passes 1 additional free pass? Additional round passes for reaching higher RSL regions? (e.g. +1 for reaching RSL 25/30/35....) Or something like that.

    To avoid misunderstandings I'd like to make clear that I'm a F2P player only and that I usually finish the challenge at RSL30-32, depending on available time and challenge maps. (5-6 passes in 2.7, now with expected 7-8 passes.)

    Would be nice if it at least would be discussed and taken into account as many players hate that they now have to start at lower RSL again.

    Thx @Teeceezy @Fearofabotplanet @Shteevie
    JayZ
  • LightfeetLightfeet Member Posts: 1,062
  • abailey362abailey362 Member Posts: 304
    i think the biggest issue would be the effect on the leaderboards. there would have to be a stopping point for the doubled/tripled/quadrupled stars to make it even for both normal and hard modes. in the second spreadsheet at rsl 31, a normal mode player would have 500 less stars than one in hard mode. there would also need to be a much higher gas cost for hard mode to make the gas spent comparable on both.

    with the way round passes are working now, i think it's a decent balance. it does still get repetitive though. between my 2 accounts, i played 83 rounds this week =/
    abailey362 - TheHerdReturned - part of #THR Family



  • Bill_ZRTBill_ZRT Member Posts: 1,369
    For what it's worth, I've recommended a solution for this, but it was deemed 'too complicated'. Is it? I didn't think so.

    Every player 'starts' at the same level (hear me out, you don't have to PLAY every level!!). Let's say that's RSL 9. Players actually begin at the RSL of their highest level character. However, you get credit (stars) as if you started at RSL 9 and completed the challenge perfectly up to your highest level character's RSL-1.

    So to summarize - everyone 'starts' (or starts calculating stars) as if they started playing at RSL 9. A player has a level 22 survivor, so they actually start the challenge at RSL 22, however they start the challenge with a number of stars equal to starting at RSL 9 and going through RSL 21 (because they start at RSL22). If NG thinks this starting RSL is too high, then making it your highest survivor level - X (whatever is fair and reasonable).

    Along with this change, repeating rounds would have to be tweaked in order to keep a level playing field. Repeat rounds would either have to start at the same level for everyone or maybe they would start at the RSL of your highest level survivor (I would need to think about whether that would be exploitable and give people a reason not to level up).

    If you really want to get fancy, you can let people override their calculated starting level and start wherever they want, as low as the starting RSL of 9. I would personally do this, but some people have said they like doing a few lower level maps to get a feel for them and plan their strategies when the maps or higher level and more challenging.

    So that's all it is:
    • Start at the level of your highest survivor
    • Get credit for the maps that you didn't have to do because of your starting RSL
    • Repeat RSLs are tweaked so they're the same for everyone.
    • Possibly add the ability for someone to override their starting RSL if they want to experience maps at a lover level. They still get credit for any maps they skipped.
    The time grind, especially the useless low level challenge map grind is a killer for me and many other players. While I appreciate the bandaid which 'fixes' the upgrade penalty, it also introduce more of a low level and time grind for the challenges which is a major turn off.

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  • jimmorrison369jimmorrison369 Member Posts: 1,827
    Bill_ZRT said:


    So that's all it is:

    • Start at the level of your highest survivor
    • Get credit for the maps that you didn't have to do because of your starting RSL
    • Repeat RSLs are tweaked so they're the same for everyone.
    • Possibly add the ability for someone to override their starting RSL if they want to experience maps at a lover level. They still get credit for any maps they skipped.
    Though I like that idea, It falls in the "something for nothing" category.
    Meaning people would get a lot of stars for doing nothing.
    They just start the challenge and get hundreds of stars.

    Don't think NG will like that.
    My original suggestion (months ago), was to earn the stars by playing for each skipped round (this is actually a lot like current system, but without round passes).
    That way if you skip to far, you'll lose out on stars because you didn't 3 star everything.

    But whatever. I guess we are stuck in current system. :(
  • pirate1125pirate1125 Member Posts: 308
    It wouldn't be near as bad if they kept adding new challenge maps. Instead of the same one every 5 weeks or so
    Bill_ZRT
  • SplatterSplatter Member Posts: 15
    edited October 2017
    I'm sad at the change. I'm only at lvl 20 and find the challenge grind is ridiculous. I can only imagine how boring it will be in 3 levels time. The rationale behind making the change didn't make sense either (end game players should get more stars), since a higher level player starts on a higher level, he/she will accumulate round completion stars faster. For every round completed, the player one tier higher would get an extra star. That really adds up over 25-30 rounds.
    JackBauer
  • LightfeetLightfeet Member Posts: 1,062
    > @Lightfeet said:
    > Lowered starting RSL and granting round passes for skipped rounds as well brought back the grind for high(er) lvl players. It of course helps lower lvls, who complained about not getting doubled round passes, if they couldn't reach the sweet spot (5+ passes) and thus it in general is a good idea, but I think there should be - at least a slight - benefit for the players who are squeezing through the last rounds, where other ppl don't even would take delight in doing so.
    >
    > I fully understand that NG doesn't give out double round passes after 5 rounds, now that the skipped rounds count as well, but there should be some kind of benefit for reaching higher numbers of round passes. Maybe sth. like a bonus system? For each 5 earned round passes 1 additional free pass? Additional round passes for reaching higher RSL regions? (e.g. +1 for reaching RSL 25/30/35....) Or something like that.
    >
    > To avoid misunderstandings I'd like to make clear that I'm a F2P player only and that I usually finish the challenge at RSL30-32, depending on available time and challenge maps. (5-6 passes in 2.7, now with expected 7-8 passes.)
    >
    > Would be nice if it at least would be discussed and taken into account as many players hate that they now have to start at lower RSL again.
    >
    > Thx @Teeceezy @Fearofabotplanet @Shteevie

    @Teeceezy @Fearofabotplanet @Shteevie

    Would be nice to get a feedback. Thx
  • TeeceezyTeeceezy Staff Posts: 3,576
    I'll get some eyes on this thread, but Shteevie's away from the office for a bit now, so any response might take a while. :)
  • DLichDLich Member Posts: 5,526
    Can anyone point me in the direction of the reward thresholds?

    Since 2.8 I went from getting 950 stars on a regular basis to getting 1376 last week. I expect to end at around 1200 weekly and curious what the thresholds are. A total list would be great.

    Also guild reward thresholds too please. TIA

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  • MonsutaMonsuta Member Posts: 1,168
    There is NO higher rarity when we use all legendary to craft the badge, we are being punished for having a chance to get LOWER rarity.
    This is NOT WORKING AS INTENDED & it's UNFAIR.
    DLich
  • DLichDLich Member Posts: 5,526
    @Monsuta Thank you kindly!

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  • GladiGladi Member Posts: 616

    ... there would also need to be a much higher gas cost for hard mode to make the gas spent comparable on both.
    ...=/

    Gas costs should be much lower, just to allow F2P compete with P2P in challenge scores. It is impossible to get to endpoint without buying gas with gold or 24 hours booster.
    I was "finished" at the end of RSL27 or start of RSL28(not doing struggle rounds), which was not possible to reach without extra gas. Well, distance made it even harder, unless one want to skip it completely.
  • TransmuteJunTransmuteJun Member Posts: 1,987
    So we seem to have 2 groups of players.

    Group #1 complained loudly that upgrading their survivors made them lose stars. They didn't understand that when survivors go up a level, their starting challenge level should increase, thus keeping a constant level of 'grind'. The number of stars would increase slightly with each level because you get more completion stars for higher levels, and leveling your survivors up by one should mean that you are able to reach another RSL higher into the challenge. This group was loudest, so they are the ones NG heard, which is why the challenge start was changed to be a static point for all levels, so that there wouldn't be a 'penalty' for upgrading survivors.

    Group #2 is the set of players complaining now. These players want less grind. They are less concerned with total stars and more concerned with getting to higher level RSLs quickly. It is for these players that round passes were implemented, so that they could skip the lower levels of the challenge.

    It seems to be a difficult task for NG to please both groups. I thought they made a great effort by lowering the challenge start level and introducing round passes. The only way I can think of to satisfy both groups now is for NG to have players choose which RSL they want to use to start playing: 14 or Highest Survivor Level -1 (just like they choose which type of Distance to play). But even then, people who choose the higher level would earn fewer stars, and they would complain about that.

    This seems to be a no-win situation for NG and IMHO they have done their best to balance things out for both groups.
    DLichdeb1hdsuzequeuedocfinzenburg
  • MonsutaMonsuta Member Posts: 1,168
    @TransmuteJun There is, by introduce 2x round passes back. And improve it a bit to happen more frequent.
    There is NO higher rarity when we use all legendary to craft the badge, we are being punished for having a chance to get LOWER rarity.
    This is NOT WORKING AS INTENDED & it's UNFAIR.
  • Bill_ZRTBill_ZRT Member Posts: 1,369

    So we seem to have 2 groups of players.

    Group #1 complained loudly that upgrading their survivors made them lose stars. They didn't understand that when survivors go up a level, their starting challenge level should increase, thus keeping a constant level of 'grind'. The number of stars would increase slightly with each level because you get more completion stars for higher levels, and leveling your survivors up by one should mean that you are able to reach another RSL higher into the challenge. This group was loudest, so they are the ones NG heard, which is why the challenge start was changed to be a static point for all levels, so that there wouldn't be a 'penalty' for upgrading survivors.

    Group #2 is the set of players complaining now. These players want less grind. They are less concerned with total stars and more concerned with getting to higher level RSLs quickly. It is for these players that round passes were implemented, so that they could skip the lower levels of the challenge.

    It seems to be a difficult task for NG to please both groups. I thought they made a great effort by lowering the challenge start level and introducing round passes. The only way I can think of to satisfy both groups now is for NG to have players choose which RSL they want to use to start playing: 14 or Highest Survivor Level -1 (just like they choose which type of Distance to play). But even then, people who choose the higher level would earn fewer stars, and they would complain about that.

    This seems to be a no-win situation for NG and IMHO they have done their best to balance things out for both groups.

    @TransmuteJun - not sure if you read my earlier comment here: http://forums.nextgames.com/walkingdead/discussion/comment/271171/#Comment_271171

    but I believe there is a model that can make both of these groups happy.
    Everyone’s got two wolves inside them. One is anger, envy, pride. The other…truth, kindness. Every day they tear each other apart.
    But it’s not the better wolf that wins. It’s the one you feed.

    Contact [email protected] or send @Bill_ZRT a message to join DTP today!

    tabernac
  • TransmuteJunTransmuteJun Member Posts: 1,987
    @Monsuta We effective do have double round passes: we get round pass credit for the levels we skip. Works out the same as the double passes from before, or better.

    @Bill_ZRT You propose an interesting solution, but I don't think it's viable, because then people get a whole bunch of stars (and crates) just for starting the challenge, even if they only play one round.
  • ADPaqADPaq Member Posts: 291

    wer stars, and they would complain about that.

    This seems to be a no-win situation for NG and IMHO they have done their best to balance things out for both groups.

    I've only quoted a tiny bit of your comment as I'm not going to address each aspect, but rather the overall theme that NG can't win because of different play styles.

    The problem as I see it is the entire concept of the challenge is fundamentally flawed as follows:

    1. Reaching higher levels doesn't provide increased rewards (stars, XP, gear, gold, tokens etc.) when it should
    2. The base starting level isn't based on your ASL when it should be
    3. There are only 6 maps per challenge which directly results in grind
    4. The entire concept of the Challenge is to spend the week grinding

    Taking each of the above points, this is how I'd re-invent Challenge mode.

    1a. Provide bonus rewards for 3 starring all 6 maps
    1b. Increase rewards (stars, XP, gear, gold, tokens etc.) the higher a player climbs above their ASL.
    2. Start at RSL = to ASL (this can be tweaked for very new players or even allow a player to select the RSL they wish to start at)
    3. Increase the number of maps significantly before they repeat (12, 24, etc.). Difficulty could increase between maps if 3 starring them one after the other.
    4. Allow players to reach their maximum Challenge level earlier and give them something else to play. That is, add new content such as
    - New Chapter missions
    - New game modes e.g. one map, three survivors, infinite spawns until you die. The further you get the more rewards you get.
    - Overhaul Outposts to actually make them engaging
    - Introduce competitive guild play

    I'm sure there will be issues with my solution, but I believe this would address many of the issues I have with the Challenge as it stands.
    tallinie
  • TransmuteJunTransmuteJun Member Posts: 1,987
    Those are certainly some interesting ideas, @ADPaq ! And you're right that the real problem is that players all have different play styles and it is difficult for the challenge to meet all of their needs/desires.

    And you raise an excellent point that if people don't want to play the challenge, it would be nice if there was an interesting alternative other than boring scavenge missions.
  • Bill_ZRTBill_ZRT Member Posts: 1,369

    @Bill_ZRT You propose an interesting solution, but I don't think it's viable, because then people get a whole bunch of stars (and crates) just for starting the challenge, even if they only play one round.

    Thanks for your comments. Personally, I don't have a problem with giving players stars and thus rewards in this way, but I could understand some who would. To me, this works like XP tents for Farms. You build and upgrade them and they produce something of value for you in x hours. This would be similar, but for the max level survivor(s) you have.

    If there was a strong opinion that this wasn't fair then you could somehow link getting these early 'skipped' rewards to running the later missions (although I would have to think this through to make sure it wasn't something that could be exploited by starting at a certain level). For example, maybe all your rewards are doubles for the missions you actually run up to a maximum of what you would have earned for those skipped levels. But now the system is getting more complicated.

    I suppose another way to limit things which would be very simple, would be to put a cap on the max challenge level that one can play. Don't have it infinite like it is now... have it have a hard cap like the Distance. I don't love this because it doesn't let the superstars shine and it just creates more parity. I'd rather have players able to play higher and harder levels and be rewarded for that.
    Everyone’s got two wolves inside them. One is anger, envy, pride. The other…truth, kindness. Every day they tear each other apart.
    But it’s not the better wolf that wins. It’s the one you feed.

    Contact [email protected] or send @Bill_ZRT a message to join DTP today!

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