Lots of interesting ideas here, but wouldn't it be simpler to just make melee attacks ranged?
If you initiate a melee attack from, say, five cells away, have the attacker run in, attack the walker, and then return to where they started from. That effectively makes a melee attack the same as a ranged attack, but without having to change or add any traits or weapons.
Seems pretty simple to me, unless I'm missing something.
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The main reason I use ranged survivors is well the "range" i.e. the distance between the survivors and walkers. The melee lack this advantage (apart from the spear for the scout).
If we look at the melee survivors, scout are built for high damage, bruisers are tanks i.e. taking the brunt of the damage and warriors are the in between.
While I am not into new traits for these classes, these melee survivors can be brought at par with the ranged ones.
Scout: Every survivor has two action points. The Scout should have three. Use one to move, one to strike and one to move back.
Bruiser: As suggested by Bill, bruiser should have three health levels. Armor plus green and red health level. The Bruiser should not be stunnable on the armor health level.
Thanks everyone for the feedback - great stuff in this thread and the support is awesome.
A couple of people have PM'd me some suggestions and I have at least one more which is a variant on something someone suggested in this thread.
Mitigation
Parry: Instead of giving melee a greater chance to 'dodge' give them a second chance to avoid an attack with Parry (so melee could dodge, and if that failed, try to parry an attack.
Spring Attack: Allow a melee character to move both before and after their attack
Mobility: If a melee character has not moved before taking an attack, they may move after taking an attack.
Lockpicking: This is one I've heard from other people as well, reduce the amount of time it takes melee to open doors/gates etc. This could certainly help make them more useful.
So to clarify, Spring Attack lets you move half your full movement along with an attack, but that half move can be taken both before and after an attack. So a scout can move two spaces towards a walker, make an attack, then move two spaces back.
Mobility allows you to move either before an attack (just as you can now) OR after an attack (attacking doesn't end your turn the way it does now). If you start your turn adjacent to a walker and attack, you can then move (your normal half movement ) after that attack. I just realized that this is the same as @OTM's suggestion, but I already typed all this out, so I'll just tag him and give him credit. ;-)
Control
I absolutely agree with others that have said that bruisers need to be able to stun more and more effectively. Along those same lines, I would love to see their abilities 'charge' on something other than a kill. Bruisers are not damage dealers... let them get their charge points some other way or at least reduce the number of charge points they need to one.
Damage
Make a warrior's charge attack a guaranteed critical.
I agree that a change in basic melee game mechanics would be the best thing to do instead of new traits, but I have a feeling that the amount of dev work would be significantly higher if they went that route.
Something else that someone mentioned that I've thought about for quite some time now is that NG could design certain maps (challenge maps, Distance maps, etc) so that you are required to bring X number of survivors of X class. Maybe three melee characters, maybe 2 scouts, etc. This would allow maps to be designed specifically for melee (or ranged) or a combination. so that maps that might be properly balanced for melee (but too easy for ranged) could be designed and used. The Season missions sort of do this, but I don't know if the maps are actually designed with the classes you must take when running the lower level missions where you must take the predetermined heroes that match the theme of the map.
Everyone’s got two wolves inside them. One is anger, envy, pride. The other…truth, kindness. Every day they tear each other apart. But it’s not the better wolf that wins. It’s the one you feed.
Seriously, if NG put this sort of thought into refining the game it would be so much improved. I'd much rather see these sorts of tweaks than the Distance and badges.
Great ideas man. They would make my warriors and bruisers unstoppable. Three strong Melees can handle walkers up to RSL 38 but only one at a time. 1-2 ok, but 3 or more and your done. More so now with wrestler gone.
Great ideas man. They would make my warriors and bruisers unstoppable. Three strong Melees can handle walkers up to RSL 38 but only one at a time. 1-2 ok, but 3 or more and your done. More so now with wrestler gone.
Way to basically guarantee these ideas will never come into the game now and will likely result in a melee nerf
@ErmonDax that's an extremely interesting idea. It would be pretty simple to code and fix the entire issue or having a half a AP after the initial attack.
Gonna bump this up, it's still as urgent as it was when the update dropped. Gonna also say that training suit is useless, especially for scouts, bruisers, and shooters, and if the rebalancing involves new gear traits, we need to get rid of some that are not useful (imo hazard suit, bullet proof, training suit, as well as the sniper harness, though that's strictly for ranged).
Gonna bump this up, it's still as urgent as it was when the update dropped. Gonna also say that training suit is useless, especially for scouts, bruisers, and shooters, and if the rebalancing involves new gear traits, we need to get rid of some that are not useful (imo hazard suit, bullet proof, training suit, as well as the sniper harness, though that's strictly for ranged).
Thanks - I agree. It would be a shame if it's only the posts with yelling and screaming that get attention from the Dev. @Shteevie - would love to hear your thoughts on some of the suggestions here and the future plans for melee.
@avelardez - nice video, but is this showing the power of melee, or the power of a ridiculous amount of Jesus tokens (Elite, one pink star - with one of your warriors being a 2 pink star elite) and the power of badges (I noticed each of your survivor has a full set of badges and each has a badge set bonus as well)?
It's a nice little run/strat for this map, but melee is still nowhere near as effective as ranged in general.
Everyone’s got two wolves inside them. One is anger, envy, pride. The other…truth, kindness. Every day they tear each other apart. But it’s not the better wolf that wins. It’s the one you feed.
If anything the video shows the massive discrepancy in power between melee and shooter. Take JayZ's screen shot here of a shooter getting 32K damage, admittedly with the shooter bonus, and compare it to Jesus's crit shots maxing out at just under 8.5K and Dirty's maxing out at under 12K.
Don't get me wrong, @avelardez you're clearly a highly skilled player and know how to effectively use melee but there's just such a imbalance in favour of ranged vs. melee at present and it needs to be addressed.
The Distance and many lucky radio calls have added up over the last year and a half to get him to pink level. Just recently have I been able to get him to pink status. Jesus’ leader trait is a must for that added bonus. Plus with these new badges they can deal this type of damage. My warrior is one of the best in the business. Just her overwatch alone can take out a 27 without any badges. I scrapped many warriors just to invest in her since last year.
If anything the video shows the massive discrepancy in power between melee and shooter. Take JayZ's screen shot here of a shooter getting 32K damage, admittedly with the shooter bonus, and compare it to Jesus's crit shots maxing out at just under 8.5K and Dirty's maxing out at under 12K.
Don't get me wrong, @avelardez you're clearly a highly skilled player and know how to effectively use melee but there's just such a imbalance in favour of ranged vs. melee at present and it needs to be addressed.
I think the imbalance is more defensive than offensive, and was increased with the wrestler nerf.
Offensively, a well-badged melee can destroy. They just can't protect themselves. It's hard to see the numbers, but that is my scout critting for 30k+ damage, with no event bonus.
My warrior is one of the best in the business. Just her overwatch alone can take out a 27 without any badges. I scrapped many warriors just to invest in her since last year.
Can you share some of the details of your Warrior? Overwatch attack with no badges can take out a 27? That's incredible! For comparison, my Warrior (who is far from one of the best in the business, but at the same time isn't a bender) can sometimes take out a level 27 Zed on a Normal attack and sometimes cannot. Doing so on Overwatch is of course out of the question for my Warrior. Bear in mind that he also has a Rare Damage +12% Badge equipped. He's also using an upgraded Legendary Base 21 weapon, but even if he was using an upgraded Legendary Base 22 weapon, there is still no way he could take out a 27 on Overwatch.
You have a similar warrior. This is what my girl is packing. I would suggest you get a stronger weapon. Her overwatch is a 50/50 hit. Mix her with Jesus and she gets an added boost.
How about just allowing melee characters to move after attacking? That way you can attack with first AP and then use second to move to safe distance. Simple. Would make a huge difference in the viability of these characters.
What if we could get a melee weapon that had a cool trait, like the one for ranged, that reduced bodyshots. I think ranged calls it piercing. That would be awesome on say a sword.
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What if we could get a melee weapon that had a cool trait, like the one for ranged, that reduced bodyshots. I think ranged calls it piercing. That would be awesome on say a sword.
I don't think it would work, but I'm not sure why.
What if we could get a melee weapon that had a cool trait, like the one for ranged, that reduced bodyshots. I think ranged calls it piercing. That would be awesome on say a sword.
My thoughts on melee: -Bruisers and Warriors don't have enough health to justify getting up close to walkers. For scouts that would make sense. -Bruisers damage output is really low, it makes it harder to kill walkers in one hit, which means you're vulnerable to taking damage from crowds. -At high walker levels, you stop being able to stun them which makes them effectively useless at later stages of The Distance. -Many high level walkers are immune to stunning: Bloaters, Tanks, Spiky... again it makes the class useless against these kinds of enemies. Even a stun ability doesn't work against these.
Bruiser low damage is archaic. They only attack 1 at a time with a standard weapon, and only up to 3 with a special weapon; their stun is not compensation for low damage, due to body shots and stun resistance; their high health only partially offsets their melee disadvantage of having to get close to the enemy.
So they have no advantage to justify their lower damage. Assaults have lower damage, but they're still ranged so they can control distance, and they're able to attack a whole bunch of enemies at once, not merely the 1-3 that bruisers can. So it makes sense that they have a lower damage.
If bruisers did damage comparable to a warrior, they'd be more balanced. With standard weapons, bruiser hits 1 enemy and warrior up to 3; with specials, bruiser up to 3 and warrior... uh... however many gold arc lets you hit. Warrior can hit more enemies, bruiser has higher health and stuns. Those balance quite well, and justifies giving bruisers higher damage than they have now.
Again, low damage for bruisers is just archaic. It's a holdover from when bruiser stun was more fearsome. Get with the times and give bruisers a damage buff.
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Comments
If you initiate a melee attack from, say, five cells away, have the attacker run in, attack the walker, and then return to where they started from. That effectively makes a melee attack the same as a ranged attack, but without having to change or add any traits or weapons.
Seems pretty simple to me, unless I'm missing something.
great post!!! Thank you
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The main reason I use ranged survivors is well the "range" i.e. the distance between the survivors and walkers. The melee lack this advantage (apart from the spear for the scout).
If we look at the melee survivors, scout are built for high damage, bruisers are tanks i.e. taking the brunt of the damage and warriors are the in between.
While I am not into new traits for these classes, these melee survivors can be brought at par with the ranged ones.
Scout: Every survivor has two action points. The Scout should have three. Use one to move, one to strike and one to move back.
Bruiser: As suggested by Bill, bruiser should have three health levels. Armor plus green and red health level. The Bruiser should not be stunnable on the armor health level.
Warrior: Really I cant think of anything.
Zee Black - SG Woots - Playing since 2015.A couple of people have PM'd me some suggestions and I have at least one more which is a variant on something someone suggested in this thread.
Mitigation
So to clarify, Spring Attack lets you move half your full movement along with an attack, but that half move can be taken both before and after an attack. So a scout can move two spaces towards a walker, make an attack, then move two spaces back.
Mobility allows you to move either before an attack (just as you can now) OR after an attack (attacking doesn't end your turn the way it does now). If you start your turn adjacent to a walker and attack, you can then move (your normal half movement ) after that attack. I just realized that this is the same as @OTM's suggestion, but I already typed all this out, so I'll just tag him and give him credit. ;-)
Control
Damage
I agree that a change in basic melee game mechanics would be the best thing to do instead of new traits, but I have a feeling that the amount of dev work would be significantly higher if they went that route.
Something else that someone mentioned that I've thought about for quite some time now is that NG could design certain maps (challenge maps, Distance maps, etc) so that you are required to bring X number of survivors of X class. Maybe three melee characters, maybe 2 scouts, etc. This would allow maps to be designed specifically for melee (or ranged) or a combination. so that maps that might be properly balanced for melee (but too easy for ranged) could be designed and used. The Season missions sort of do this, but I don't know if the maps are actually designed with the classes you must take when running the lower level missions where you must take the predetermined heroes that match the theme of the map.
But it’s not the better wolf that wins. It’s the one you feed.
Contact [email protected] or send @Bill_ZRT a message to join DTP today!
@avelardez - nice video, but is this showing the power of melee, or the power of a ridiculous amount of Jesus tokens (Elite, one pink star - with one of your warriors being a 2 pink star elite) and the power of badges (I noticed each of your survivor has a full set of badges and each has a badge set bonus as well)?
It's a nice little run/strat for this map, but melee is still nowhere near as effective as ranged in general.
But it’s not the better wolf that wins. It’s the one you feed.
Contact [email protected] or send @Bill_ZRT a message to join DTP today!
Don't get me wrong, @avelardez you're clearly a highly skilled player and know how to effectively use melee but there's just such a imbalance in favour of ranged vs. melee at present and it needs to be addressed.
The Distance and many lucky radio calls have added up over the last year and a half to get him to pink level. Just recently have I been able to get him to pink status. Jesus’ leader trait is a must for that added bonus. Plus with these new badges they can deal this type of damage. My warrior is one of the best in the business. Just her overwatch alone can take out a 27 without any badges. I scrapped many warriors just to invest in her since last year.
Offensively, a well-badged melee can destroy. They just can't protect themselves. It's hard to see the numbers, but that is my scout critting for 30k+ damage, with no event bonus.
Can you share some of the details of your Warrior? Overwatch attack with no badges can take out a 27? That's incredible! For comparison, my Warrior (who is far from one of the best in the business, but at the same time isn't a bender) can sometimes take out a level 27 Zed on a Normal attack and sometimes cannot. Doing so on Overwatch is of course out of the question for my Warrior. Bear in mind that he also has a Rare Damage +12% Badge equipped. He's also using an upgraded Legendary Base 21 weapon, but even if he was using an upgraded Legendary Base 22 weapon, there is still no way he could take out a 27 on Overwatch.
Appreciate any insight you can provide!
I am definitely in need of better Warrior weapons. Work in progress! Appreciate your time.
http://forums.nextgames.com/walkingdead/discussion/27071/michonnes-piercing-katana-2-6-unreleased-update-notes
@Mabiki You sure it's not working?
-Bruisers and Warriors don't have enough health to justify getting up close to walkers. For scouts that would make sense.
-Bruisers damage output is really low, it makes it harder to kill walkers in one hit, which means you're vulnerable to taking damage from crowds.
-At high walker levels, you stop being able to stun them which makes them effectively useless at later stages of The Distance.
-Many high level walkers are immune to stunning: Bloaters, Tanks, Spiky... again it makes the class useless against these kinds of enemies. Even a stun ability doesn't work against these.
So they have no advantage to justify their lower damage. Assaults have lower damage, but they're still ranged so they can control distance, and they're able to attack a whole bunch of enemies at once, not merely the 1-3 that bruisers can. So it makes sense that they have a lower damage.
If bruisers did damage comparable to a warrior, they'd be more balanced. With standard weapons, bruiser hits 1 enemy and warrior up to 3; with specials, bruiser up to 3 and warrior... uh... however many gold arc lets you hit. Warrior can hit more enemies, bruiser has higher health and stuns. Those balance quite well, and justifies giving bruisers higher damage than they have now.
Again, low damage for bruisers is just archaic. It's a holdover from when bruiser stun was more fearsome. Get with the times and give bruisers a damage buff.
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