We might get to know in-game loot boxes drop rate in the near future.

https://developer.apple.com/app-store/review/guidelines/
Apps offering “loot boxes” or other mechanisms that provide randomized virtual items for purchase must disclose the odds of receiving each type of item to customers prior to purchase.


Does radio calling heroes applied to this rule too?
MattOfEarthJackBauerbigbeanobladgier

Comments

  • John_DoeJohn_Doe Member Posts: 17
    https://www.polygon.com/2017/12/21/16805392/loot-box-odds-rules-apple-app-store

    Any game in Apple App Store need to disclose their loot box probabilities, if this game didn't comply to Apple new law then risk being taken down.
    I don't think any game maker want to lose their huge iOS users.
    xbamfx
  • TJSTJS Member Posts: 4,501
    edited December 2017
    What loot boxes does this game have for purchase?
    From what I understand, none.

    As what you've posted says, "Loot Boxes For Purchase" I don't see that there will be any change. In game purchasing with gold or TG would not fall into the category your post mentions, nor would radio calls.

    (Of course that's how I see it anyway)
    -
    TJS  -  Member of W-S
    Nation Wars 🇦🇺 Australian Team Captain
    Mabiki
  • MabikiMabiki Member Posts: 1,732
    edited December 2017
    If I understand this correctly (and it's possible I don't, having only read summaries in news stories and not the full terms) - the new Apple standard is for loot boxes that people pay real money for. As in Dollars, Euros, Yen, etc. It wouldn't require any company disclose odds for items bought solely with in-game currency that can be earned in game simply by playing. NG already discloses the exact traits you are getting when you pay real money for items like Morgans Staff or Carl's Pea Shooter. I don't see how it would require them to disclose odds on something like a 12,500 TG weapon crate or similar purchases. Unless I am missing something big, this will have little to no effect on this particular game.

    Edit: What TJS said. He was apparently typing as I was re-reading the polygon story to see if I missed something before hitting submit.
  • John_DoeJohn_Doe Member Posts: 17
    You both wrong, if that's the case, then every single game can start using in-game currency to bypass this new Apple rule to make it useless.
    Apple wasn't the company will tolerate any kind abuse of it's App Store rule.
    JackBauerSCBMAPutchuco
  • MabikiMabiki Member Posts: 1,732
    edited December 2017
    John_Doe said:

    You both wrong, if that's the case, then every single game can start using in-game currency to bypass this new Apple rule to make it useless.

    No - they can't. The rule applies to random loot boxes that are purchased with money. If all games do is require people to convert real money to in-game currency, then Apple's new rules will still apply. They will see that work-around for what it is. As it stands in NML, you can only buy Morgan's Legendary Staff with real money. There is no way to get that item with in-game currency. If NG starts to sell it for trade goods only, and also offers a way to convert real cash directly to TG's, then you will be sort of right. But even then - NG already discloses the stats on those purchases, so the odds are 100 percent. It isn't random. So there are no new odds to disclose.

    You can buy TG in NML, but only when you buy something else along with it. You can't just convert cash to TG. So you would have to argue that NML is selling bundles that include a small amount of TG that players can then use to buy loot boxes that have odds that should be disclosed. NG would argue they are selling a gold or weapon bundle that happens to include TG, but it's not what you are paying for, and would point out that TG can be earned without paying any money. It can be earned without paying any real money whatsoever.

    I wouldn't mind being proven wrong, but I don't think that's the case. I skimmed the actual Apple rules you quoted, but didn't read them entirely. If you believe there is something in there that proves your point, please share it, or any article from a gaming-related site that suggests your interpretation is correct. This change by Apple will affect a lot of games, but I think you are wildly optimistic about what Apple's new rule means for this game in particular.
    MattOfEarth
  • John_DoeJohn_Doe Member Posts: 17
    This new rule was introduced because of the loot box practice of Star Wars Battlefront 2 brings too much attention.

    https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2017/11/15/star-wars-battlefront-2-loot-crates-explained/
    The primary currency is Credits. Credits buy loot crates, which contain randomly-allocated Star Cards (see below), sometimes the crafting resource Scrap (also see below), and sometimes more Credits. Credits also unlock extra Hero characters, who I’ll return to later. You gain some Credits by playing in matches and meeting targets, e.g. kill x dudes while playing as Assault class. I earned around 3,000 credits from half a dozen matches but obviously this can vary.

    Completing the singleplayer campaign also offers a chunk of 5,000 Credits. The solo ‘Arcade’ mode rewards Credits too but with a restriction, only giving paying out up to a certain point then not again until the next day. This is both harsh and strange, given that at that point you could just go play some multiplayer – where the unlocks are actually used.


    Crystals are the currency sold for real money. These buy the same loot crates as Credits do – i.e. which primarily contain a few randomly-chosen Star Cards. In theory buying Crystals enables you to sidestep the lengthy play matches – earn Credits – buy Crates – get Scrap – build/upgrade Cards loop – but, if you’re after specific cards, the blind bag element means you’ll almost certainly have to buy multiple Crates. Crystals also can’t directly buy Credits or Scrap, but you’re very likely to find some by opening a few crates. Crystals cost:

    500 for £3.99/$4.99
    1,000 for £7.99/$9.99
    2,100 for £15.99/$19.99
    4,400 for £31.99/$39.00
    12,000 for £79.99/$99.99

    Loot crates, meanwhile, cost:

    Trooper (cards for general infantry): 4,000 credits / 200 Crystals
    Starfighter (cards for spaceships): 2,400 credits/ 120 Crystals
    Hero (cards for Star Wars icons such as Luke, Vader, Yoda and, er, Bossk): 2,200 credits / 110 Crystals

    So 12,000 Crystals for $100 would buy you 60 Trooper crates (more if you were buying Starfighter or Hero ones), each of which contains from 1-3 random Star Cards – i.e. something between 60 and 180 in total. There are currently 324 Star Cards to acquire, across all classes, vehicles and characters, but clearly the odds of a crate containing a duplicate card only grow as you open more. Some high-level cards are extremely rare, too. As such, spending an additional $100 on your $60 videogame wouldn’t get you even close to having everything (without also putting a lot of hours in, at least), and I suspect the actual spend required to do so could well reach four figures. This is the darkness of loot crates. And, even if $100 was all it took for everything – still very, very dark.
    Mabiki
  • John_DoeJohn_Doe Member Posts: 17
    The components crates in the shop you can buy with gold would be considered a straight forward loot box.
    dlb
  • MabikiMabiki Member Posts: 1,732
    @John_Doe

    Thanks, that sheds some light.
  • TJSTJS Member Posts: 4,501
    @John_Doe

    Interesting reading.
    I welcome any disclosure of odds. I guess I'm still sceptical there will be any change but we'll see.

    Thanks for sharing. Something every player should know.
    -
    TJS  -  Member of W-S
    Nation Wars 🇦🇺 Australian Team Captain
  • bladgierbladgier Member Posts: 2,135
    They always might decrease (aka nerf) everything and then release info and make us think, it was always like this :D
    TroublemakerDBones
  • JackBauerJackBauer Member Posts: 1,550
    Is there any timeframe given until when the developers have to put down their pants ?
    -----------------
    Remember to use your charge abilities
    DBonesbigbeano
  • zboyzboy Unconfirmed, Member Posts: 3
    Ooops :trollface:

    Random Chance Tables

    Next Games and No Man's Land are proud to release new information on the random chances of obtaining rewards in all areas of the game.

    New information buttons appear in the following places:

    - The Radio Tent
    - When picking Crates after Missions
    - On the Guild Gift button
    - Trade Goods and Components shops
    - In the Craftsman Building Badge Creation menu

    On each of these screens, the player can find specific information on the chances to receive any specific type, quantity, or rarity of reward that is possible in that location. We hope players use this information to make the best choices about how to spend their time and resources in No Man's Land. Out of respect for our supportive community of dedicated players, Next Games and the No Man's Land team went far beyond the minimum requirements for creating these information screens. We're excited about this step to increase transparency and more informed decision making in mobile games, and proud to be leading the way in offering the most detailed information we can to our players.

  • MabikiMabiki Member Posts: 1,732
    Clock begins at 2:29 a.m. CST. I've got 5 bucks American on 4:53 a.m. same time zone.
    Pig
  • MabikiMabiki Member Posts: 1,732
    Dang, I lost.
  • kkatsukkatsu Member Posts: 140
    What difference does it make really? Ok, NG will let us know what are the odds. How this will affect the way we are playing game? Please enlight me.

    It's all based on percentages and probability. Something might or might not happen. It's just the way it is.
    MattOfEarthTechfallADPaq
  • TechfallTechfall Member Posts: 168
    kkatsu said:

    What difference does it make really? Ok, NG will let us know what are the odds. How this will affect the way we are playing game? Please enlight me.

    It's all based on percentages and probability. Something might or might not happen. It's just the way it is.

    The point is that loot boxes are a form of gambling. If someone is spending real money on gold to roll on loot boxes or badges or whatever, they are gambling. Gambling is addictive. If NG releases the odds and it's .00000000001% chance of getting the item you want, maybe you want gamble anymore. If it's 25% chance, maybe you will. That's the point, you don't know, but now you will.

    Also Hawaii has introduced legislation to ban sales of games with loot box gambling to people under 21
    https://www.polygon.com/2018/2/13/17007830/hawaii-loot-crate-laws-ea-star-wars-battlefront-2
    kkatsu
  • RbredtRbredt Member Posts: 70
    edited February 2018
    Will we see probabilities of the locked 5th trait of epic survivors, since tokens can be purchased with real money?

    How about watching video for a crate?
  • DrunkenDrunken Member Posts: 1,726
    This is an example of a great bumped thread. This was brought up before and now NG is being forced to give it to us, but make it seem like they are doing it because it was requested. Reality is either do it or lose all Apple users.
    mik81
  • TechfallTechfall Member Posts: 168

    I’ll expect that from NG when the sky turns pink and monkeys fly out of my butt.

    How's that monkey butt?
    Bill_ZRTPigADPaq
  • kkatsukkatsu Member Posts: 140
    Techfall said:

    kkatsu said:

    What difference does it make really? Ok, NG will let us know what are the odds. How this will affect the way we are playing game? Please enlight me.

    It's all based on percentages and probability. Something might or might not happen. It's just the way it is.

    The point is that loot boxes are a form of gambling. If someone is spending real money on gold to roll on loot boxes or badges or whatever, they are gambling. Gambling is addictive. If NG releases the odds and it's .00000000001% chance of getting the item you want, maybe you want gamble anymore. If it's 25% chance, maybe you will. That's the point, you don't know, but now you will.

    Also Hawaii has introduced legislation to ban sales of games with loot box gambling to people under 21
    https://www.polygon.com/2018/2/13/17007830/hawaii-loot-crate-laws-ea-star-wars-battlefront-2
    You still didn't explain how this will change behavior of players. What difference does it make if it's going to be 25 or whatever the other percentage will be? If you are spending money on the game you are willing to take your chance regardless of odds because you will still believe that this time will be your one in a million chance. If you want to make a progress in the game you need to take your chances, regardless if you spent money on game or not.

    Let's say you not gonna like hero drop rates from radio phone calls. So now what, you will stop making a calls? This will hinder your progress.
    dlb
  • TechfallTechfall Member Posts: 168
    edited February 2018
    kkatsu said:

    Techfall said:

    kkatsu said:

    What difference does it make really? Ok, NG will let us know what are the odds. How this will affect the way we are playing game? Please enlight me.

    It's all based on percentages and probability. Something might or might not happen. It's just the way it is.

    The point is that loot boxes are a form of gambling. If someone is spending real money on gold to roll on loot boxes or badges or whatever, they are gambling. Gambling is addictive. If NG releases the odds and it's .00000000001% chance of getting the item you want, maybe you want gamble anymore. If it's 25% chance, maybe you will. That's the point, you don't know, but now you will.

    Also Hawaii has introduced legislation to ban sales of games with loot box gambling to people under 21
    https://www.polygon.com/2018/2/13/17007830/hawaii-loot-crate-laws-ea-star-wars-battlefront-2
    You still didn't explain how this will change behavior of players. What difference does it make if it's going to be 25 or whatever the other percentage will be? If you are spending money on the game you are willing to take your chance regardless of odds because you will still believe that this time will be your one in a million chance. If you want to make a progress in the game you need to take your chances, regardless if you spent money on game or not.

    Let's say you not gonna like hero drop rates from radio phone calls. So now what, you will stop making a calls? This will hinder your progress.

    If you're a gambling addict you will still probably pay money for a .0000001% chance, but not everyone will, which is how it could change a player behavior. Depending on the odds it could make some buy less or it could make people who previously didn't buy, buy some if the odds are better than they thought. That's the whole point of this rule and why other places are calling for the out right ban of cash loot boxes, because it is gambling. And in most states there are strict rules/laws on gambling. EA has simply brought the the gaming form of gambling to the forefront.

    Why do you think scratch offs and lottery tickets aren't allowed to sell you tickets without the odds being available? Would it be fair to sell a $5.00 scratch off if the odds of winning any cash amount were 1 and 1 billion? Is it fair to allow people to play slots without posting the payout percentages? There are a lot of shady things a company could do involving loot boxes if the odds are not available. I.e. a shady company could put some awesome item in cash loot box and make the chance of winning extremely low, hell even 0% and then make some alt accounts and show fake screen shots of people winning so users think the drop % is pretty good.

    Random loot boxes are a shitty idea that all companies have begun to use for profit
    mik81dlb
  • kkatsukkatsu Member Posts: 140
    edited February 2018
    If someone is gamble addict he will gamble no matter what, regardless of whether odds will be known or not. And you don't have to explain again about the law etc. That's not what I'm arguing.

    I still see no effect on the way one will play once odds will be out. If you won't like the odds then what? You will quit the game, that's the only thing you can do. If you want to continue playing, you will have to swallow that tough pill and keep grinding, taking your chances left and right since that the only way you can progress.

    Let's say you want to craft Legendary badge from all the legendary pieces. You will learn that odds of that will be say 20%. Seems to be low but won't you give it a shot to get great piece of stuff that will make it possible to progress further just because you don't like those odds? There is no other option, you can try and craft the badge or just don't craft at all which is wasted opportunity (you miss 100% of the shots you don't take). It's simple as that. Learning that odds are 20% doesn't mean that in 100 tries you will get 20 legendary badges. Heck, even in 1000 tries you can get zero as it's still possible and within the odds. How do you verify that the odds provided are indeed odds used in the game?

    I don't understand why people are so eager to learn things that will have zero effect on their game style.
  • mik81mik81 Member Posts: 360
    edited February 2018
    If I find out that chances to get a legendary weapon on armor on crates are really, really low, instead of wasting/using 25 gold to open 3 extra more I could use that gold to heal my survivors..
    On radio calls, if chances are really low(ie 10 hero radio call), instead of buying bundles with radios you may want to buy bundles with weapons and guaranteed items.
    If chances to craft a legendary badge from all legendary components are really low, you may not buy bundles with components...

    Etc...

    How funny would be to go to buy shoes just with a "chance" (unknown chance) of getting my size...
    1Risjimmorrison369
  • mik81mik81 Member Posts: 360
    My point is that if you are just selling me " a chance of" at least let me know what is that %
  • Bill_ZRTBill_ZRT Member Posts: 1,421
    edited February 2018
    @kkatsu, I'm a CB2P player (Cheap Bastard to Play) which is not quite FTP, but I also don't spend $20-$50 per week on the game. I usually buy one gas booster a week and every once in a while (similar to the frequency of volcanic lightning which is incredibly freaking awesome and beautiful BTW) I buy something. For example the last weapon bundle I bought (and the only weapon bundle I bought, I think) was the 'No Parking!' street sign warrior weapon. I don't spend because I don't know the odds so I don't feel I can make an informed choice. Now I will know the odds... so when there's an event with an "increased chance of" I can make an informed decision about whether that increased chance it worth my while and worth spending on.
    Everyone’s got two wolves inside them. One is anger, envy, pride. The other…truth, kindness. Every day they tear each other apart.
    But it’s not the better wolf that wins. It’s the one you feed.

    Contact [email protected] or send @Bill_ZRT a message to join DTP today!

    jimmorrison369JackBauer
  • kkatsukkatsu Member Posts: 140
    @Bill_ZRT - but your example is related to something random. It's weapon bundle where the traits are well known. How is this related to the topic? As for the rest of your comment, you do understand how probability works? How knowing the odds will allow you to make informed decision? Just look at my example on badge crafting. How the fact that I know there is 20% chance of getting legendary badge will change anything? I don't like my odds in this game without knowing them. I would love to get legendary badge 100% of time, I would love to get legendary gear from gold weapons 100% of time. That's not the case but I still need to take my chances. And I'm not forced to pay for it. I can be F2P and use available game mechanics to give it a try. If you want to make progress in the game, you need to take a shot.

    @mik81 - and how knowing what are the chances of getting anything will change you in-game behavior. I will repeat what I wrote since understanding probability and randomness is the key. Learning that odds are 20% doesn't mean that in 100 tries you will get 20 legendary badges. Heck, even in 1000 tries you can get zero as it's still possible and within the odds. And even in your shoes example. You don't have a clue what are the odds that store will have shoes you want in size you want. It's just a chance that's the case. So does it mean you shouldn't go to that store and check it out?

    And I don't need to know the odds of god crates used in your example. If you are F2P type of player, golden crate are not worth spending gold on them. Every experienced player will tell you that.
  • jimmorrison369jimmorrison369 Member Posts: 2,065
    kkatsu said:

    ... How the fact that I know there is 20% chance of getting legendary badge will change anything?...

    If I then use other rarity components and the chance is 19%
    I might concider not using all the same components.
    I can then calculate my optimum balance. (Component income vs chances)
    Then I might consider using combinations of rarity.
    Now I just use all legendary to be safe.

    David_H79Timboskitabernacxbamfx
  • Bill_ZRTBill_ZRT Member Posts: 1,421
    kkatsu said:

    @Bill_ZRT - but your example is related to something random. It's weapon bundle where the traits are well known. How is this related to the topic? As for the rest of your comment, you do understand how probability works? How knowing the odds will allow you to make informed decision? Just look at my example on badge crafting. How the fact that I know there is 20% chance of getting legendary badge will change anything? I don't like my odds in this game without knowing them. I would love to get legendary badge 100% of time, I would love to get legendary gear from gold weapons 100% of time. That's not the case but I still need to take my chances. And I'm not forced to pay for it. I can be F2P and use available game mechanics to give it a try. If you want to make progress in the game, you need to take a shot.

    @mik81 - and how knowing what are the chances of getting anything will change you in-game behavior. I will repeat what I wrote since understanding probability and randomness is the key. Learning that odds are 20% doesn't mean that in 100 tries you will get 20 legendary badges. Heck, even in 1000 tries you can get zero as it's still possible and within the odds. And even in your shoes example. You don't have a clue what are the odds that store will have shoes you want in size you want. It's just a chance that's the case. So does it mean you shouldn't go to that store and check it out?

    And I don't need to know the odds of god crates used in your example. If you are F2P type of player, golden crate are not worth spending gold on them. Every experienced player will tell you that.

    I can't tell if you're just looking for a fight in the internet (in which case, I'm out) or if you're sincerely looking for a discussion, but I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt (although asking if I understand how probability works is generally what I would call a 'red flag'). Knowing the odds absolutely 100% changes my behavior. Let's say the normal probability of pulling a hero from a hero call is 10%. Now let's say a hero event is happening and I have a "significantly greater chance" of getting that hero. Significantly better means nothing to me... it could mean that the chance to get the hero has increased to 15% (a 50% increase which could certainly be described as significant) or it could mean it's been increased to 50% (significantly better than 15%). As it stands now, not knowing the actual probabilities, I do nothing special for these events except spend the radios want to.

    However, if the probabilities were disclosed and the odds were good enough, I would absolutely consider buying a radio bundle to unlock or advance a particular hero. There's a 0% chance of me doing that without knowing the probabilities because I can't make an informed decision without knowing the odds.
    kkatsu said:

    As for the rest of your comment, you do understand how probability works? How knowing the odds will allow you to make informed decision?

    So to answer to your question, yes, I understand how probability works and knowing the odds absolutely allows me to make an informed decision.
    Everyone’s got two wolves inside them. One is anger, envy, pride. The other…truth, kindness. Every day they tear each other apart.
    But it’s not the better wolf that wins. It’s the one you feed.

    Contact [email protected] or send @Bill_ZRT a message to join DTP today!

    TJSTimboskiADPaqpaintbeast
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