Hero base traits - how much bigger than regular toons?

BoukephalosBoukephalos Member Posts: 263
I just unlocked Michonne (at level 20) and have been doing calculations to see which badges to add. I knew she'd have a higher base damage, but was surprised to see that as an epic hero her base damage is the same as a 4-pink regular survivor. The fact that she has the health of a 1-pink was less surprising.

Is that a typical hero base trait pattern or does it vary a lot? (Will go do lots of calculations heroes now but maybe somebody already has those stats)

EDIT: It's currently her hero week, so I did worry I'd been dumb and she just has an extra boost for the week. But the NG peeps tell me that her traits have not been altered.
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Comments

  • DeadheadsDeadheads Member Posts: 520
    is it seriously true that Michonne's base damage when unlocked at epic = base damage of a regular 4 pink warrior????
  • ShadowaceAzShadowaceAz Member Posts: 3,391
    Wouldn't it be awesome if we could see each survivors base stats?

    Hint hint
    @Kaz @Shteevie

    I heard this has been requested but never found a response as to it being worked on or why it's not possible.
    Descensus in cuniculi cavum
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    Concordia

    BoukephalosR2runfastSPR
  • BoukephalosBoukephalos Member Posts: 263
    Deadheads said:

    is it seriously true that Michonne's base damage when unlocked at epic = base damage of a regular 4 pink warrior????

    Yes. She unlocked (as a level 20 epic toon) with base damage of 1123 and health of 1413. You can see where that fits on the tables here. But I just had a major facepalm moment - its her hero week so she almost certainly has a stats boost this week. So I'll have to see how she fares next week, rather than this.
  • David_H79David_H79 Moderator Posts: 1,866
    There is no hero boost on Michonne active this week @Boukephalos
    TJSbigbeanoBoukephalosmsapaev
  • BoukephalosBoukephalos Member Posts: 263
    David_H79 said:

    There is no hero boost on Michonne active this week @Boukephalos

    Awesome if that's the case :-) I was hopeful because there's no mention of a stats boost in the news item, but important information has been left out of news items before.
  • PigBenisPigBenis Member Posts: 1,020

    Wouldn't it be awesome if we could see each survivors base stats?

    Hint hint
    @Kaz @Shteevie

    I heard this has been requested but never found a response as to it being worked on or why it's not possible.

    I'm pretty sure I understand what you're saying...you'd like to be able to see them in game and how much change a piece of equipment and their traits along with survivor traits and badges changes a current setup...correct? I'd like to see this as well.

    As far as the base stats, it should be possible to work backwards to obtain these values if I'm not mistaken. The formulas for damage and health are out there on how equipment, traits, and badges are figured into the final value. It would just be a rather large task for one person to take on and would require quite a spreadsheet of data for each hero/survivor at each level, etc.
    Black Labs Matter.
    Boukephalos
  • ShadowaceAzShadowaceAz Member Posts: 3,391
    Agree with @mimica while the damage is awesome when she can hit, a 3 Pink Survivors is going to go much further before auto body shots kick in. That's really the mainstay of a reason for the pink stars. Having the +150-300 or so damage is nothing really at those levels, it barely even affects the overall average because of the wide variance of damage possible on a hit already.
    Descensus in cuniculi cavum
    Vir prudens non contra ventum mingit
    Concordia

    mimicaBoukephalos
  • JackBauerJackBauer Member Posts: 1,546
    At the end a body shot is a body shot. Even if the base damage values are better. So your 4 pink survivor will definitely still be better then michonne with same base damage level.
    -----------------
    Remember to use your charge abilities
    David_H79BoukephalosDBonesbigbeano
  • BoukephalosBoukephalos Member Posts: 263
    All valid points above. Still, I'm putting together a chart of hero base traits because that information seems to be missing from the otherwise expansive survivor stats compiled by veterans like Professor Earthtones.

    TJSGrady
  • DodkongDodkong Member Posts: 1,039
    Wish I could help out more, @OneLessTitan, but Aaron is the only one you need that I don't have badged. I hope a rare version of him is acceptable.



    "I always say, if you must mount the gallows, give a jest to the crowd, a coin to the hangman, and make the drop with a smile on your lips." -Birgitte Silverbow, The Fires of Heaven, The Wheel of Time

    "Death is lighter than a feather. Duty, heavier than a mountain." - al'Lan Mandragoran, The Great Hunt, The Wheel of Time
    OneLessTitanBoukephalos
  • aquilaaquila Member Posts: 212
    Here is non- badged Dwight @OneLessTitan
    OneLessTitanDodkong
  • OneLessTitanOneLessTitan Member Posts: 1,272
    That's perfect @Dodkong, thanks!!!

    I updated my previous post and included the old data for the heroes highlighted in Yellow that I can't verify at this point in time, but they shouldn't have changed. Any unbadged Governor pics would complete the list!
  • OneLessTitanOneLessTitan Member Posts: 1,272
    Awesome @aquila -- stepped away from the CPU for a bit, so will check dwights stats later. Thanks!!
  • BoukephalosBoukephalos Member Posts: 263
    @OneLessTitan I've been working steadily through my heroes, only a minority of whom are badged. I can safely say that NG boost heroes by just bumping the prestige level when calculating hero base traits. It's often a different number of stars for damage and health, but it is almost always a whole number of stars (a small number of heroes have an *exact* half-star boost for damage or health or both).

    I'll post my findings when finished, which won't be entirely complete since I haven't unlocked Carl or Rufus yet.
  • ShadowaceAzShadowaceAz Member Posts: 3,391
    For anyone New to the topic/discussion

    @OneLessTitan has an amazing load of information in his data. More details can be found here:

    https://twdnomansland.wordpress.com/survivor-base-damagehealth-values/
    Descensus in cuniculi cavum
    Vir prudens non contra ventum mingit
    Concordia

  • ShadowaceAzShadowaceAz Member Posts: 3,391
    Deadheads said:

    is it seriously true that Michonne's base damage when unlocked at epic = base damage of a regular 4 pink warrior????

    (At least that's how I understood the phrasing you used


    Warrior level 20 (x1.3 4 Star / x 1.60 for 9 Star)

    702 (1 Star)
    912 (4 Star) - 702*1.3
    1123 (9 Star) - 702*1.6

    Michonne = +.3 so
    702 * .30 (1 Star unlocks with 4)
    912*1.6 (4 Star unlock) Equal a 9 Star


    So yeah, that's seems about right.. Sweet, except she still hits the bodyshot block at +5.
    Descensus in cuniculi cavum
    Vir prudens non contra ventum mingit
    Concordia

  • ShadowaceAzShadowaceAz Member Posts: 3,391
    edited April 2018
    Wow @OneLessTitan I've been playing since Sept '17 (I know, that's why I keep saying I have baby survivors. hush...) and I think I learned more today about how the damage health layout works than I have up till today!

    Sorta makes me feel like an idiot for not grasping a lot of this before. After looking through all this today, I just went and swapped a few badges around.

    Laundry Room has been a 1 ✯ pain in my ass all day. After swapping two badges, I just 3 ✰'d the sucker!

    *edit to add
    I also never really considered, at higher ASL/RSL how much pink ✯'s matter more than damage. However it does show a true statement about Epic heroes being above Legendary survivors in relation to base stats. The only drawback is a hero outside the leader position is minus a trait compared to a survivor.

    **
    I also just learned plural of hero is heroes. I've been trying to spell it heros and my autocorrect kept making it hero's. Learn something everyday!
    Descensus in cuniculi cavum
    Vir prudens non contra ventum mingit
    Concordia

    bigbeanoromeoATLAS-ZOneLessTitan
  • ShadowaceAzShadowaceAz Member Posts: 3,391
    @Caelyn

    Awesome sauce! You'll want to start using him as lead for all your missions that you can. It's amazing how much of a difference he makes in a short period of time when scavenging or even missions. If he can kill it, you want him running it.

    I try to use Gov for as many missions as I can. I used to use Glenn for gaining soup and Maggie for xp, but I finally saw the light and realized since he gives both at end of mission I actually come out ahead. (Obviously that's if I am just doing the mission. If I sit around and plan to farm say 50 kills or so, then the other two will make more.)

    Hope that makes a wee bit of sense.
    Descensus in cuniculi cavum
    Vir prudens non contra ventum mingit
    Concordia

    OneLessTitanJaden
  • OneLessTitanOneLessTitan Member Posts: 1,272
    Thanks @Caelyn -- that completes the chart!!!! And @ShadowaceAz is right, the Governor is my go to leader on challenge missions until I might start losing stars; the extra resources are nice and every once in a while he helps increase a level of a weapon you get!

    @ShadowaceAz -- Thank for the kind words; this info isn't really something that many, if any know, nor do I think I've laid it out on the forums before. But @Boukephalos asked, so I answered...

    @OneLessTitan I've been working steadily through my heroes, only a minority of whom are badged. I can safely say that NG boost heroes by just bumping the prestige level when calculating hero base traits. It's often a different number of stars for damage and health, but it is almost always a whole number of stars (a small number of heroes have an *exact* half-star boost for damage or health or both).

    I'll post my findings when finished, which won't be entirely complete since I haven't unlocked Carl or Rufus yet.

    If you don't think my explanation and data is correct, feel free to do your own thing...but I'd say it's 99.99% a certainty that I'm correct, but I always leave a little doubt with these things, and always like to know when I'm wrong.

    DoTakShadowaceAzaquila
  • BoukephalosBoukephalos Member Posts: 263
    edited April 2018



    If you don't think my explanation and data is correct, feel free to do your own thing...but I'd say it's 99.99% a certainty that I'm correct, but I always leave a little doubt with these things, and always like to know when I'm wrong.

    Meant no criticism of your data, @OneLessTitan . I said I'd do this before you posted your data to the thread, so I thought I'd finish anyway. Also, multiple data sources can help corroborate the more difficult areas. According to the data I have extracted from my own toons, NG bump the hero prestige by a given number of stars to calculate their base traits (e.g. Michonne's prestige is boosted by 5 stars for damage calculation and 2 stars for health). I think this prestige boost is consistent regardless of the hero's current level and prestige, but
    1. hat's difficult to prove without waiting and rechecking each time I train or promote one of them - unless other people see the data and check it on their own toons
    2. In cases where the prestige has boosted beyond 10 (this definitely happens), it's hard to calculate the precise prestige boost and again data from other people would help
    EDIT:

    Now I think about it, though, I think my prestige-boost way of calculating the adjustment in hero base traits contradicts your simple percentages. Because the prestige gains for any given level decrease as the prestige rises (bigger gain between 1 and 2 than between 9 and 10), then either I'm wrong about the prestige boost or your percentages are not accurate across the entire prestige range for any given hero. And the thing is, I'm getting very precise prestige for almost all the heroes. For example, my level 20, 4-prestige-stars Michonne has a base damage of 1123 and a base health of 1413, which are precisely the values for prestige 9 and 6 respectively. I'm seeing exact prestige levels for all the heroes I've examined (although a small number have N-and-a-half prestige boosts).

    I'm doing the last few heroes now, so I'll put it up here by tomorrow.

  • BoukephalosBoukephalos Member Posts: 263
    So I finished the calculations for my toons, showing the prestige boosts given to each hero (note: the prestige boosts only affect base traits and have no effect on actual survivor level, the chance of body shots and crits etc). My full workings, showing the current levels, prestige and base traits of my heroes and the resulting calculations, are here

    A summary of the results:



    I'd be very grateful if other people could check how the prestige-boost calculation works for their heroes, to see if they are correct and consistent (that is, does Rosita always get a 2-star damage boost and 1-star health boost no matter how much you've trained and promoted her?).

    @OneLessTitan, these are the percentage gains for my heroes at their current levels and prestige. With the exception of Darryl, for whom I have a lower health boost than damage while you show the reverse, they scale the same way your results do while not having precisely the same values. I'm assuming that a) you approximated a little and b) your heroes were at different prestige levels to mine when you made your calculations.




    romeoaquila
  • BoukephalosBoukephalos Member Posts: 263
    Checking your hero's base traits against my calculations

    If you want to help confirm the data
    1. Pick one of your heroes and take a note of their level and prestige
    2. Adjust their prestige according to my spreadsheet, to determine their actual damage and health prestige levels.
    3. Consult Professor Earthtone's Survivor Base Traits page to find your hero's adjusted base traits (at least, according to my calculations). So if your Rosita is level 15 and has 3-star prestige, consult the level 19 5-star prestige value for damage and the 4-star value for health.
    4. Take a copy of OneLessTitan's calculator and feed in those base trait values and the stats for your gear and badges. If you currently have Abraham or Jesus in the leadership slot, you'll need to add that bonus as well.
    5. Compare what the spreadsheet thinks should be your damage and health to what the calculator tell you.
    If the calculator is off , let me know. A difference of single figures or even (in some cases) 20 or 30 points may not matter - the actual badge calculations made by the game sometimes differ from the calculator, particularly for % badges.
  • BoukephalosBoukephalos Member Posts: 263
    Dodkong said:

    Wish I could help out more, @OneLessTitan, but Aaron is the only one you need that I don't have badged. I hope a rare version of him is acceptable.

    Thanks for the data, DodKong. That's a boost of exactly one prestige level for both health and damage.

    @aquila, thank you. Again, that's a boost of one prestige level for both. Which is exactly how it works for my Dwight.

    @Caelyn Thanks, that's fascinating. Your Governor stats equate exactly to a +2 prestige boost for damage and an 0.5 boost for health, whereas my governer (at level 20 and epic) has +3 and 1 respectively (and also precisely). I need to think hard about that one. It maybe that there's a step change in prestige boosts every N levels.

    @OneLessTitan Are you rounding from the actual change to the nearest 5%? If not, I don't understand your data. Those percentages don't work for me, DodKong, aquila or Caelyn.
    aquila
  • OneLessTitanOneLessTitan Member Posts: 1,272
    edited April 2018
    @Boukephalos -- the numbers work perfectly. You are basing your numbers off your personal situation (hero levels/prestige)...what I explained is the UNIVERSAL way of calculating both Survivor and Hero Damage/Health Ratings (the way the game actually does it). Here's the way I did it (I'll explain only for Damage, but the same exact process is applied to Health as well...and I'll use one of the pictures given as an example: The Governor from Caelyn).
    1. Take the Uncommon Damage Rating for a regular Survivor: for a level 7 Assault, that # is 72.
    2. Take the Total Damage Rating shown on profile pic and then subtract the weapon value (175-68). After removing the .07 marksman value, you get 100 as the Governor's Base Damage.
    3. Divide #2 by #1 (100/72) to get your "multiplier above Common Damage Rating"...that is 1.39...
    4. Since a normal Rare Survivor has a 1.2x Common Rating multiplier, subtract that from 1.39 (yes, I did round this one to 1.40 since the game does round, and since we are dealing with lower level survivors, more rounding is inevitable....that leaves a +.2 increase in the normal multiplier for the Governor over a regular Rare Assault of the same level.

    Using that method nets you the exact same results as my charts, for every Hero (assuming Sasha Damage and Abe Damage/Health have been unchanged over the last year or so). That's not exactly super intuitive, but it's how it works. This chart will probably be easier to understand (hopefully...lol)...

    The left side of the chart deals with the damage increase...the right side deals with the Health Boost.
    The Header Column refers to the Actual PRESTIGE of your Hero (just use Aaron as an example)...if you move over to the 3* (Rare) Header column, then move down one row to Aaron, at Rare, he has the Damage rating of a regular EPIC Shooter Survivor...At Epic, Aaron has the Damage rating of a regular 5* (LEG) Shooter Survivor...a 5* (LEG) Aaron has the damage rating of a 7* regular Shooter Survivor.

    **There are some liberties taken with the chart....obviously there's no 11+* star survivors, but I included those #s as if the Survivors kept scaling up in damage the way the currently do, and only for comparisons sake. There's also no such thing as a 1.5*/2.5*/3.5*/4.5* Survivor, but those just show that they aren't quite the same exact rating as a Normal Common/Uncommon/Rare/Epic/LEG Survivor. Also note that Rufus' Health Ratings actually are negative Survivor Levels...that's because he's a huge bum and I needed a way of explaining/comparing his ratings, and that's how I did it.

    Please check these charts to see if they line up with your personal Hero Ratings. I pieced this together pretty quickly, so there could be a data entry error, but the logic/calculations are on point.
    KarajocamsapaevaquilaGrady
  • ShadowaceAzShadowaceAz Member Posts: 3,391
    I am getting it s...l...o....w......l.......y

    Still don't understand prestige reference. Prestige to me would be a level of title or standing, such as the scoring in Outpost raids. The defender are level 20 but the prestige is how much you earn after timer runs out.

    Is @Boukephalos using prestige synonymous with stars? Because a level 20 can be 1-10 stars (prestige?)

    I.e. your using different terms, same meaning?
    Descensus in cuniculi cavum
    Vir prudens non contra ventum mingit
    Concordia

  • OneLessTitanOneLessTitan Member Posts: 1,272
    edited April 2018

    I am getting it s...l...o....w......l.......y

    Still don't understand prestige reference. Prestige to me would be a level of title or standing, such as the scoring in Outpost raids. The defender are level 20 but the prestige is how much you earn after timer runs out.

    Is @Boukephalos using prestige synonymous with stars? Because a level 20 can be 1-10 stars (prestige?)

    I.e. your using different terms, same meaning?

    not sure how bouk is using "prestige" (i think we are refering to the same thing)...but I use it to refer to Uncommon/Common/Rare/Epic/LEG/6*/7*/8*/9*/10*...(but I see I accidentally typed "level" instead of prestige in the example, so fixed that!!)
    CBgaming1969
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