Hero base traits - how much bigger than regular toons?

Boukephalos · April 2018

I just unlocked Michonne (at level 20) and have been doing calculations to see which badges to add. I knew she'd have a higher base damage, but was surprised to see that as an epic hero her base damage is the same as a 4-pink regular survivor. The fact that she has the health of a 1-pink was less surprising.

Is that a typical hero base trait pattern or does it vary a lot? (Will go do lots of calculations heroes now but maybe somebody already has those stats)

EDIT: It's currently her hero week, so I did worry I'd been dumb and she just has an extra boost for the week. But the NG peeps tell me that her traits have not been altered.

WellyLuga · April 2018

Late last year many heroes were buffed during 2.9:

Select Hero Improvements

Hero Changes:

Carl - Increased Health and Damage, Leader Trait triggers more often
Carol - Increased Health and Damage, Leader Trait more effective
Daryl - Increased Health, Leader Trait chances improved
Eugene - Increased Damage, Leader Trait chances improved
Ezekiel - Increased Damage, Leader Trait Damage bonus increased
Gabriel - Increased Damage, Leader Trait chances improved
Jesus - Increased Health and Damage, Leader Trait Damage increase improved
Michonne - Increased Damage, Leader Trait chances improved
Morgan - Increased Damage, Leader Trait chances improved
Negan - Increased Damage, Leader Trait Health and Damage bonuses improved
Rick - Increased Health and Damage, Leader Trait Damage bonus improved
Rufus - Leader Trait Health bonus improved

Michonne, among many other heroes got a very nice boost to damage and their leader traits.

Deadheads · April 2018

is it seriously true that Michonne's base damage when unlocked at epic = base damage of a regular 4 pink warrior????

ShadowaceAz · April 2018

Wouldn't it be awesome if we could see each survivors base stats?

Hint hint
@Kaz @Shteevie

I heard this has been requested but never found a response as to it being worked on or why it's not possible.

Boukephalos · April 2018

Deadheads said:
is it seriously true that Michonne's base damage when unlocked at epic = base damage of a regular 4 pink warrior????

Yes. She unlocked (as a level 20 epic toon) with base damage of 1123 and health of 1413. You can see where that fits on the tables here. But I just had a major facepalm moment - its her hero week so she almost certainly has a stats boost this week. So I'll have to see how she fares next week, rather than this.

David_H79 · April 2018

There is no hero boost on Michonne active this week @Boukephalos

Boukephalos · April 2018

David_H79 said:
There is no hero boost on Michonne active this week @Boukephalos

Awesome if that's the case :-) I was hopeful because there's no mention of a stats boost in the news item, but important information has been left out of news items before.

mimica · April 2018

Totally possible that Michonne can have more damage than a 9* because every pink star don't add much damage to be honest but don't let that dmg fool you the 9* will do more damage to a lv31-32 in any time and any place

ShadowaceAz · April 2018

Agree with @mimica while the damage is awesome when she can hit, a 3 Pink Survivors is going to go much further before auto body shots kick in. That's really the mainstay of a reason for the pink stars. Having the +150-300 or so damage is nothing really at those levels, it barely even affects the overall average because of the wide variance of damage possible on a hit already.

JackBauer · April 2018

At the end a body shot is a body shot. Even if the base damage values are better. So your 4 pink survivor will definitely still be better then michonne with same base damage level.

Boukephalos · April 2018

All valid points above. Still, I'm putting together a chart of hero base traits because that information seems to be missing from the otherwise expansive survivor stats compiled by veterans like Professor Earthtones.

OneLessTitan · April 2018

Here's how Survivor/Hero Damage/Health are calculated:

1. There is a Base Rating for Damage/Health in each class...this is the Common Value.
2. Every prestige tier you advance, that base rating is multiplied (1.1x for Uncommon, 1.2x for Rare, 1.3x for Epic, 1.4x for LEG, 1.45x for 6*, 1.5x for 7*, 1.55x for 8*, 1.60x for 9*, 1.65x for 10*)
3. Many Heroes have an extra multiplier added in...
-----for example: Carl has a .25x Damage and .15x Health Boost, so an Epic Carl has a 1.55x Common Damage Rating (1.3 + .25), and a 1.45x Common Health Rating (1.3 + .15)

Here's the ratings (took them down from the site after the readjustments and hadn't double checked them):

If anyone can post pictures of non badged Abe/Sasha (also with gear without Lethal or Health boost), I will update the chart ASAP. Sorry, I'm just too lazy to figure it out without the badges I have.

**Edit: I used my old data for the the values highlighted in yellow since those values shouldn't have changed...but verification always welcomed.Thanks!

Dodkong · April 2018

Wish I could help out more, @OneLessTitan, but Aaron is the only one you need that I don't have badged. I hope a rare version of him is acceptable.

aquila · April 2018

Here is non- badged Dwight @OneLessTitan

OneLessTitan · April 2018

That's perfect @Dodkong, thanks!!!

I updated my previous post and included the old data for the heroes highlighted in Yellow that I can't verify at this point in time, but they shouldn't have changed. Any unbadged Governor pics would complete the list!

OneLessTitan · April 2018

Awesome @aquila -- stepped away from the CPU for a bit, so will check dwights stats later. Thanks!!

Boukephalos · April 2018

@OneLessTitan I've been working steadily through my heroes, only a minority of whom are badged. I can safely say that NG boost heroes by just bumping the prestige level when calculating hero base traits. It's often a different number of stars for damage and health, but it is almost always a whole number of stars (a small number of heroes have an *exact* half-star boost for damage or health or both).

I'll post my findings when finished, which won't be entirely complete since I haven't unlocked Carl or Rufus yet.

ShadowaceAz · April 2018

For anyone New to the topic/discussion

@OneLessTitan has an amazing load of information in his data. More details can be found here:

https://twdnomansland.wordpress.com/survivor-base-damagehealth-values/

ShadowaceAz · April 2018

Deadheads said:
is it seriously true that Michonne's base damage when unlocked at epic = base damage of a regular 4 pink warrior????

(At least that's how I understood the phrasing you used

Warrior level 20 (x1.3 4 Star / x 1.60 for 9 Star)

702 (1 Star)
912 (4 Star) - 702*1.3
1123 (9 Star) - 702*1.6

Michonne = +.3 so
702 * .30 (1 Star unlocks with 4)
912*1.6 (4 Star unlock) Equal a 9 Star

So yeah, that's seems about right.. Sweet, except she still hits the bodyshot block at +5.

ShadowaceAz · April 2018

Wow @OneLessTitan I've been playing since Sept '17 (I know, that's why I keep saying I have baby survivors. hush...) and I think I learned more today about how the damage health layout works than I have up till today!

Sorta makes me feel like an idiot for not grasping a lot of this before. After looking through all this today, I just went and swapped a few badges around.

Laundry Room has been a 1 ✯ pain in my ass all day. After swapping two badges, I just 3 ✰'d the sucker!

*^{edit to add}
I also never really considered, at higher ASL/RSL how much pink ✯'s matter more than damage. However it does show a true statement about Epic heroes being above Legendary survivors in relation to base stats. The only drawback is a hero outside the leader position is minus a trait compared to a survivor.

**
I also just learned plural of hero is heroes. I've been trying to spell it heros and my autocorrect kept making it hero's. Learn something everyday!

Caelyn · April 2018

@OneLessTitan
Not sure if this helps, just unlocked him (and obviously no badges yet at my level).

ShadowaceAz · April 2018

@Caelyn

Awesome sauce! You'll want to start using him as lead for all your missions that you can. It's amazing how much of a difference he makes in a short period of time when scavenging or even missions. If he can kill it, you want him running it.

I try to use Gov for as many missions as I can. I used to use Glenn for gaining soup and Maggie for xp, but I finally saw the light and realized since he gives both at end of mission I actually come out ahead. (Obviously that's if I am just doing the mission. If I sit around and plan to farm say 50 kills or so, then the other two will make more.)

Hope that makes a wee bit of sense.

OneLessTitan · April 2018

Thanks @Caelyn -- that completes the chart!!!! And @ShadowaceAz is right, the Governor is my go to leader on challenge missions until I might start losing stars; the extra resources are nice and every once in a while he helps increase a level of a weapon you get!

@ShadowaceAz -- Thank for the kind words; this info isn't really something that many, if any know, nor do I think I've laid it out on the forums before. But @Boukephalos asked, so I answered...

Boukephalos said:
@OneLessTitan I've been working steadily through my heroes, only a minority of whom are badged. I can safely say that NG boost heroes by just bumping the prestige level when calculating hero base traits. It's often a different number of stars for damage and health, but it is almost always a whole number of stars (a small number of heroes have an *exact* half-star boost for damage or health or both).

I'll post my findings when finished, which won't be entirely complete since I haven't unlocked Carl or Rufus yet.

If you don't think my explanation and data is correct, feel free to do your own thing...but I'd say it's 99.99% a certainty that I'm correct, but I always leave a little doubt with these things, and always like to know when I'm wrong.

Boukephalos · April 2018

OneLessTitan said:

If you don't think my explanation and data is correct, feel free to do your own thing...but I'd say it's 99.99% a certainty that I'm correct, but I always leave a little doubt with these things, and always like to know when I'm wrong.

Meant no criticism of your data, @OneLessTitan . I said I'd do this before you posted your data to the thread, so I thought I'd finish anyway. Also, multiple data sources can help corroborate the more difficult areas. According to the data I have extracted from my own toons, NG bump the hero prestige by a given number of stars to calculate their base traits (e.g. Michonne's prestige is boosted by 5 stars for damage calculation and 2 stars for health). I think this prestige boost is consistent regardless of the hero's current level and prestige, but

hat's difficult to prove without waiting and rechecking each time I train or promote one of them - unless other people see the data and check it on their own toons
In cases where the prestige has boosted beyond 10 (this definitely happens), it's hard to calculate the precise prestige boost and again data from other people would help

EDIT:

Now I think about it, though, I think my prestige-boost way of calculating the adjustment in hero base traits contradicts your simple percentages. Because the prestige gains for any given level decrease as the prestige rises (bigger gain between 1 and 2 than between 9 and 10), then either I'm wrong about the prestige boost or your percentages are not accurate across the entire prestige range for any given hero. And the thing is, I'm getting very precise prestige for almost all the heroes. For example, my level 20, 4-prestige-stars Michonne has a base damage of 1123 and a base health of 1413, which are precisely the values for prestige 9 and 6 respectively. I'm seeing exact prestige levels for all the heroes I've examined (although a small number have N-and-a-half prestige boosts).

I'm doing the last few heroes now, so I'll put it up here by tomorrow.

Boukephalos · April 2018

So I finished the calculations for my toons, showing the prestige boosts given to each hero (note: the prestige boosts only affect base traits and have no effect on actual survivor level, the chance of body shots and crits etc). My full workings, showing the current levels, prestige and base traits of my heroes and the resulting calculations, are here

A summary of the results:

I'd be very grateful if other people could check how the prestige-boost calculation works for their heroes, to see if they are correct and consistent (that is, does Rosita always get a 2-star damage boost and 1-star health boost no matter how much you've trained and promoted her?).

@OneLessTitan, these are the percentage gains for my heroes at their current levels and prestige. With the exception of Darryl, for whom I have a lower health boost than damage while you show the reverse, they scale the same way your results do while not having precisely the same values. I'm assuming that a) you approximated a little and b) your heroes were at different prestige levels to mine when you made your calculations.

Boukephalos · April 2018

Checking your hero's base traits against my calculations

If you want to help confirm the data

Pick one of your heroes and take a note of their level and prestige
Adjust their prestige according to my spreadsheet, to determine their actual damage and health prestige levels.
Consult Professor Earthtone's Survivor Base Traits page to find your hero's adjusted base traits (at least, according to my calculations). So if your Rosita is level 15 and has 3-star prestige, consult the level 19 5-star prestige value for damage and the 4-star value for health.
Take a copy of OneLessTitan's calculator and feed in those base trait values and the stats for your gear and badges. If you currently have Abraham or Jesus in the leadership slot, you'll need to add that bonus as well.
Compare what the spreadsheet thinks should be your damage and health to what the calculator tell you.

If the calculator is off , let me know. A difference of single figures or even (in some cases) 20 or 30 points may not matter - the actual badge calculations made by the game sometimes differ from the calculator, particularly for % badges.

Boukephalos · April 2018

Dodkong said:
Wish I could help out more, @OneLessTitan, but Aaron is the only one you need that I don't have badged. I hope a rare version of him is acceptable.

Thanks for the data, DodKong. That's a boost of exactly one prestige level for both health and damage.

@aquila, thank you. Again, that's a boost of one prestige level for both. Which is exactly how it works for my Dwight.

@Caelyn Thanks, that's fascinating. Your Governor stats equate exactly to a +2 prestige boost for damage and an 0.5 boost for health, whereas my governer (at level 20 and epic) has +3 and 1 respectively (and also precisely). I need to think hard about that one. It maybe that there's a step change in prestige boosts every N levels.

@OneLessTitan Are you rounding from the actual change to the nearest 5%? If not, I don't understand your data. Those percentages don't work for me, DodKong, aquila or Caelyn.

OneLessTitan · April 2018

@Boukephalos -- the numbers work perfectly. You are basing your numbers off your personal situation (hero levels/prestige)...what I explained is the UNIVERSAL way of calculating both Survivor and Hero Damage/Health Ratings (the way the game actually does it). Here's the way I did it (I'll explain only for Damage, but the same exact process is applied to Health as well...and I'll use one of the pictures given as an example: The Governor from Caelyn).
1. Take the Uncommon Damage Rating for a regular Survivor: for a level 7 Assault, that # is 72.
2. Take the Total Damage Rating shown on profile pic and then subtract the weapon value (175-68). After removing the .07 marksman value, you get 100 as the Governor's Base Damage.
3. Divide #2 by #1 (100/72) to get your "multiplier above Common Damage Rating"...that is 1.39...
4. Since a normal Rare Survivor has a 1.2x Common Rating multiplier, subtract that from 1.39 (yes, I did round this one to 1.40 since the game does round, and since we are dealing with lower level survivors, more rounding is inevitable....that leaves a +.2 increase in the normal multiplier for the Governor over a regular Rare Assault of the same level.

Using that method nets you the exact same results as my charts, for every Hero (assuming Sasha Damage and Abe Damage/Health have been unchanged over the last year or so). That's not exactly super intuitive, but it's how it works. This chart will probably be easier to understand (hopefully...lol)...

The left side of the chart deals with the damage increase...the right side deals with the Health Boost.
The Header Column refers to the Actual PRESTIGE of your Hero (just use Aaron as an example)...if you move over to the 3* (Rare) Header column, then move down one row to Aaron, at Rare, he has the Damage rating of a regular EPIC Shooter Survivor...At Epic, Aaron has the Damage rating of a regular 5* (LEG) Shooter Survivor...a 5* (LEG) Aaron has the damage rating of a 7* regular Shooter Survivor.

**There are some liberties taken with the chart....obviously there's no 11+* star survivors, but I included those #s as if the Survivors kept scaling up in damage the way the currently do, and only for comparisons sake. There's also no such thing as a 1.5*/2.5*/3.5*/4.5* Survivor, but those just show that they aren't quite the same exact rating as a Normal Common/Uncommon/Rare/Epic/LEG Survivor. Also note that Rufus' Health Ratings actually are negative Survivor Levels...that's because he's a huge bum and I needed a way of explaining/comparing his ratings, and that's how I did it.

Please check these charts to see if they line up with your personal Hero Ratings. I pieced this together pretty quickly, so there could be a data entry error, but the logic/calculations are on point.

ShadowaceAz · April 2018

I am getting it s...l...o....w......l.......y

Still don't understand prestige reference. Prestige to me would be a level of title or standing, such as the scoring in Outpost raids. The defender are level 20 but the prestige is how much you earn after timer runs out.

Is @Boukephalos using prestige synonymous with stars? Because a level 20 can be 1-10 stars (prestige?)

I.e. your using different terms, same meaning?

OneLessTitan · April 2018

ShadowaceAz said:
I am getting it s...l...o....w......l.......y

Still don't understand prestige reference. Prestige to me would be a level of title or standing, such as the scoring in Outpost raids. The defender are level 20 but the prestige is how much you earn after timer runs out.

Is @Boukephalos using prestige synonymous with stars? Because a level 20 can be 1-10 stars (prestige?)

I.e. your using different terms, same meaning?

not sure how bouk is using "prestige" (i think we are refering to the same thing)...but I use it to refer to Uncommon/Common/Rare/Epic/LEG/6*/7*/8*/9*/10*...(but I see I accidentally typed "level" instead of prestige in the example, so fixed that!!)

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Hero base traits - how much bigger than regular toons?

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