Choices choices

Tapatio75Tapatio75 Member Posts: 636


Choice 1: I can get the 256 scout tokens to work on my almost 7 star scout





Choice 2: but then I could use those hunter tokens to work on my even closer to 7 star



Choice 3: but then again I could keep David hoping that he gets a nice 5th trait



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Comments

  • PigBenisPigBenis Member Posts: 1,051
    edited June 2018
    I say choice 3. If he gets Sure Shot he's a keeper, otherwise scrap. Worth the risk in my opinion. You can always get more tokens...getting good traits is harder to come by so you should try for them when possible.
    Black Labs Matter.
    Tapatio75
  • DLichDLich Member Posts: 5,526
    Revenge is sweet on hunters especially with incendiary trait and especially this week.

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  • PigBenisPigBenis Member Posts: 1,051
    > @ATLAS-Z said:
    > Choice 1 or 2, you have your ace Hunter, and David won't get off the bench no matter what trait you draw for him.

    I really disagree there. In my opinion, once David is the same survivor level, he is the far better choice. He has Lucky that works with his Dodge trait. Better to dodge an attack than take reduced damage from Iron Skin. Also Dodge can turn a Critical Attack against you into a normal one, so it works as damage reduction too. Revenge is awesome since it's another attack and when coupled with Lucky and a survivor using a legendary weapon with gold Lucky and Incendiary, starting walkers on fire is all but certain. Revenge gives you another chance to start something else on fire when using Incendiary traited weapons and Revenge activates. Normal fire burns at 10% damage of walker's HP staring point and that will always be more than a slight buff to base value attack from Marksman trait. That fire damage is in addition to whatever the Normal or Critical Attack rolls for.
    Black Labs Matter.
    Tapatio75
  • zeeblackzeeblack Member Posts: 1,055
    Its choice 1 or 2. The Choice 3 is a gamble which you should not take
    I am Black, Zee Black, Level SeVeNtY tWo with hUnDrEd ThOuSaNd sTaRs, Elder, SG Woot, tWo MiLlIoN star guild
    PigBenisATLAS-ZCaptainslayerromeo
  • PigBenisPigBenis Member Posts: 1,051
    The gamble paid off. It's now his top Hunter trait-wise. Well worth it. If it didn't pan out he'd have a decent Hunter for Distance or could scrap him for 256 tokens. You can always get more tokens.
    Black Labs Matter.
    Tapatio75
  • Starr621Starr621 Member Posts: 108
    edited June 2018
    Marksman and Ruthless are must haves on hunters. I would also probably include lucky there because of the increase in incendiary activating but that's just imo. If a hunter does not have either of those 2 essential traits, it's not worth upgrading. David still has a good set of traits so keep him for distance but he's not worth the pink stars.
    mack22PigBenisATLAS-Zromeo
  • ATLAS-ZATLAS-Z Member Posts: 2,538


    For example, my hunter here...





    Best defense is a good offense, at least for Hunters and Shooters (& Scouts)


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    mack22kamilowatyromeoTapatio75
  • PigBenisPigBenis Member Posts: 1,051
    edited June 2018
    I've realized that the Marksman trait isn't worth it. It adds only minimal amount of damage to your survivor's BASE ATTACK value and this trait is more useful at lower levels than high levels.

    I have a 5 star level 18 Hunter with Marksman (15% increase) for instance that does 776 base damage instead of a base damage of 675 on a level 18 Hunter without Marksman. That is a difference of 101 and it's not a huge benefit. It's not going to allow me to kill a walker 1 level higher. All it really does is increase the chance that a walker will be killed by a shot since the average is shifted to the higher end of the range. Even a lowly common badge can make up for that difference and then some. So this trait isn't as useful as others at higher levels.

    Revenge on the other hand allows an attack on an enemy that attacks another one of your survivors and this WILL HAPPEN at high level. Why wouldn't you want this? Even if a body shot from a Hunter (50% normal damage attack) the extra attack does more damage than the Marksman trait.

    Lucky is also better than Marksman. When using weapons with Penetration and or Incendiary it allows more damage than Marksman trait. Incendiary is independent of a body shot and normal fire damage is 10% of walker's HP pool. Better chance of a non body shot means attack is either Normal or Critical more frequently, meaning more damage. Also Lucky also works with Dodge and increases frequency to turn Critical hits against you into normal attacks more frequently from what I've read...atleast at high level when Critical hits against you are guaranteed. This allows a survivor to live longer and do more damage.

    My unicorn traits for a Hunter are as follows:

    Ruthless
    Revenge
    Sure Shot
    Lucky
    Dodge

    Lucky works with so many "necessary" traits that it's a must have. You WILL take hits at higher level so Dodge helps you avoid those hits and take less damage by turning Critical hits against you into normal attacks.

    I recommend looking over the math for the Marksman trait yourselves and you will likely see it isn't an incredibly useful trait at high level. Maybe @DLich has a spreadsheet or can make one to show 2 survivors in same class and same level with and without Marksman trait. With same weapons and armor and without badges. Also one with badges to show that Marksman trait is only applied to BASE stats.
    Black Labs Matter.
    mack22CaptainslayerromeoTapatio75
  • PigBenisPigBenis Member Posts: 1,051
    Also a graph with how a normal walker's HP total increases with level compared to 2 Hunters' attack values at the same level. No badges, just same gear equipped and one survivor with Marksman and one without...I know this is a lot to ask. I'm at work and unable to look into it.
    Black Labs Matter.
    Tapatio75
  • aquilaaquila Member Posts: 250
    Marksman's value inxreases with % damage badges and i like this trait. But i prefer David than Irene slightly. With lucky and revenge he will charge faster with Sasha, ignited more and have more critical hits (around 4.5% at high difficulties with gold piercing).
    Dodge and iron skin are nice add-ons but not so necessary for hunters imo, i use Sasha and Daryl for defensive purposes.
    So @ATLAS-Z has a good point but i agree more with @PigBenis on this subject. The result is @Tapatio75 has two great hunters :)
    PigBenisTapatio75
  • Japes87Japes87 Member Posts: 1,398
    Dodge is only necessary at later levels to compliment iron skin on defensive survivors , namely Bruisers and Assaults . Hunter doesn't need dodge unless you are trying to make a hunter meat shield. Sasha is a different situation, but I still would not want dodge on her, as @ATLAS-Z mentioned, Marksman, Ruthless, Sureshot , Revenge, and Lucky. If you really want to use in a defensive capacity , Iron Skin over dodge
    CaptainslayerATLAS-Z
  • kamilowatykamilowaty Member Posts: 148
    edited June 2018
    From my experience dodge alone without iron skin in build sux/any class on higher rsl.Dodge on "glass cannons"/shooters/hunters does not make sense and its a wasted trait.
    tabernacTapatio75
  • ATLAS-ZATLAS-Z Member Posts: 2,538
    Marksman @Pigbenis gets more useful as your level increases, not less. Increasing that base damage also increases your crit damage, your revenge damage, your overwatch damage, etc.

    And it's the only trait you benefit from on every single attack.

    Not prioritizing it is silly.

    And again, there is no point of defensive traits on a Hunter, unless you are going yipee-kiyay! Bonzai! Yolo! on every mission and your Hunter is getting smacked around a bunch...

    ... In which case, yes load up that defense and don't forget your helmet.
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    Tapatio75
  • PigBenisPigBenis Member Posts: 1,051
    @ATLAS-Z My point was that as a survivor's level increases, so does it's base damage, but the minimal increase seen from the Marksman trait does not scale at the same rate as a walker's total health. For instance, I am suggesting that as a survivor with Marksman levels from 10 to 11 there will be more benefit from the trait in this instance killing a level 11 walker instead of a level 10 walker compared to the survivor and walker both leveling from 20 to 21 for instance. I believe a graph will clearly show this.

    A critical hit is roughly 150% of a normal attack. So if a 5 star survivor has no Marksman and a base of 1000 attack value, it will do roughly 1500 on a critical hit (before gear, badges, leader traits, etc. are figured in). On an equivalently outfitted survivor now with the Marksman trait (15% increase to base damage), the normal attack becomes 1150 and 1725 for a critical hit.

    However, this all falls apart at ASL +5 where body shots are guaranteed 100% of the time on attacks from ranged survivors. This is where you NEED the trait mostly anyway, since as I mentioned, walker health increases more quickly between levels than survivor attack values. That extra 15% damage on a 5 star survivor now is cut in half since body shots are guaranteed. The only way to get a critical hit is from a charged attack, or by using a weapon with Piercing...Lucky trait works to increase the chances of it happening.

    If I have some time this weekend I'll try to find the attack values for every level Hunter with and without Marksman and the HP for each level walker and graph it out. I will be busy tomorrow and won't have much time to do that. I'm really interested in the results of this.
    Black Labs Matter.
    Tapatio75
  • ATLAS-ZATLAS-Z Member Posts: 2,538
    Oh I just calced it myself, took a bit of doing too.

    The truth is, yes, marksman isn't necessary. My shooter gains about 485 extra damage per hit thanks to Marksman. Is that a big deal at level 24? Maybe not. But +485 on EVERY SINGLE ATTACK?? That's more useful to me than Revenge which only comes into play when the sun and moon line up perfectly on the autumn equinox during the blood red moon. Every Attack VS Occasionally useful? Easy decision.

    And lets remember, my point was never to say Revenge isn't useful. Defensive traits on offensive survivors is my beef. +485 damage on every hit vs. a bit of protection because I was sloppy and got my star hunter smacked?? Not hard decision for me at all.
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  • ATLAS-ZATLAS-Z Member Posts: 2,538
    Assuming level 24 Shooter base damage around [~1825 + (17%) Marksman] + (57%) from my Damage badges = 3352

    vs [~1825 alone] + (57%) = 2865

    approx. values in some cases
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  • mik81mik81 Member Posts: 360
    Sure Shot is not a desired trait for me in any range survivor

    1) On high RSL Sure shot is giving you 27% crit chances with piercing and 90% crit chances... Without moving. Getting 90% crit chances is hard, so you'll probably will be at 20-23% crit chances with piercing, which is ~2 of 10 attacks.

    2)On high RSL I tend to move a lot, either to hit multiple targets, or to protect my survivors or just to keep the distance between my guys and the walkers coming. In any of these situations Sure Shots adds exactly 0.

    On assaults: which is the only class with no guaranteed crit attacks and where you can use crit chances besides piercing.... Well I tend to move when using the charge attack so I can stun a big amount of walkers (Archives would be the obvious exception)

    On hunters: see 1 and 2 + guaranteed crit attacks when using a charge attack

    On shooters: see 1, 2 applies but probably less than the other 2 classes. and guaranteed crit attack when using a charge attack. BUT it is a single target class (less attack per turn means less crits overall) and I try to leave the killing shot to him as I wanted them to be charged asap, so many times, a crit is just an overkill attack. I also don't use pistols with range unless they are strictly necessary for a specific map.

    Based on the above I don't want to have Sure Shoot on my ranged survivors, imo that trait is "old meta".
    Tapatio75den4play
  • PigBenisPigBenis Member Posts: 1,051
    ATLAS-Z said:

    Assuming level 24 Shooter base damage around [~1825 + (17%) Marksman] + (57%) from my Damage badges = 3352

    vs [~1825 alone] + (57%) = 2865

    approx. values in some cases

    I'm not talking about adding badges...just the impact of the Marksman trait. So a base damage of 1825 multiplied by 17% gives only 310 damage increase over base applied to NORMAL ATTACKS. That is for killing walkers under ASL +5 and it's not needed there. The value is cut in half to 155 when you encounter guaranteed body shots at ASL +5 and higher...that's where you need the damage. Having Revenge instead of Marksman in this instance of a guaranteed body shot would do half of whatever your survivors TOTAL damage is.

    Furthermore, having Lucky and a weapon with Penetration would increase the chances of doing either 100% damage OR 150% damage. Either of those is certainly greater than the 155 damage done from Marksman trait.
    Black Labs Matter.
  • ATLAS-ZATLAS-Z Member Posts: 2,538
    PigBenis said:

    I'm not talking about adding badges

    But you HAVE to factor badges, since they increase your Marksman bonus

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  • ATLAS-ZATLAS-Z Member Posts: 2,538
    mik81 said:

    Sure Shot is not a desired trait for me in any range survivor

    Based on the above I don't want to have Sure Shoot on my ranged survivors, imo that trait is "old meta".

    Ok, **raises an eyebrow patiently** what would you recommend for a survivor who already had Marksman/Ruthless/Lucky/Revenge??

    What you say would be the best 5th trait? (pssst, if its any defensive trait ie dodge/b.dodge/def.stance/ironskin we will just end our discussion here as there is no further point)


    @PigBenis same question... what would you recommend for a survivor who already had Sureshot/Ruthless/Lucky/Revenge??

    What you say would be the best 5th trait? (pssst, if its any defensive trait ie dodge/b.dodge/def.stance/ironskin we will just end our discussion here as there is no further point)

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  • PigBenisPigBenis Member Posts: 1,051
    ATLAS-Z said:

    PigBenis said:

    I'm not talking about adding badges

    But you HAVE to factor badges, since they increase your Marksman bonus

    No, badges add to it. We are comparing traits on a survivor, not the badges added.

    That's like you saying you want to compare the fuel range between identical cars running on a gallon of gas but one car drives up hill the entire trip and the other has a 20 mile downward slope where the engine could idle before it hits flat ground. Not an apples to apples comparison.

    You can still put the badges on a survivor without Marksman. You are inflating the results when you use the badges to say the Marksman trait is that effective, when in fact it's the badges.
    Black Labs Matter.
  • PigBenisPigBenis Member Posts: 1,051
    ATLAS-Z said:

    mik81 said:

    Sure Shot is not a desired trait for me in any range survivor

    Based on the above I don't want to have Sure Shoot on my ranged survivors, imo that trait is "old meta".

    Ok, **raises an eyebrow patiently** what would you recommend for a survivor who already had Marksman/Ruthless/Lucky/Revenge??

    What you say would be the best 5th trait? (pssst, if its any defensive trait ie dodge/b.dodge/def.stance/ironskin we will just end our discussion here as there is no further point)


    @PigBenis same question... what would you recommend for a survivor who already had Sureshot/Ruthless/Lucky/Revenge??

    What you say would be the best 5th trait? (pssst, if its any defensive trait ie dodge/b.dodge/def.stance/ironskin we will just end our discussion here as there is no further point)

    Even quarterbacks and wide receivers in the NFL wear pads to protect themselves, though they are offensive. Are you suggesting that Tom Brady should not wear pads? I think his teammates and fans would argue that as he's sitting on the sideline injured in week 2. Nothing needs to be purely offensive nor purely defensive. I'm a numbers guy and I favor data and what it shows is the best in a given situation. I believe this means that Tom Brady will be wearing pads still. I believe this means that Marksman is not the best trait.
    Black Labs Matter.
  • ATLAS-ZATLAS-Z Member Posts: 2,538
    edited June 2018
    I appreciate your analogy, but apples and oranges.

    I'm a numbers guy too, and I firmly believe... FIRMLY... that absolute 100% maximizing offense in your Top/Pinkworthy offensive guys is the best way to go.

    And Tom Brady could win a super bowl in his underwear, the prick

    (and no I'm not inflating results, 485 is exactly the benefit my survivor gain from having Marksman. without it, his damage would be 485 less (give or take RNG) on every hit)
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  • Tapatio75Tapatio75 Member Posts: 636
    These are my hunters, I mostly use Irene and Barbara because of the 6th star, Jean got stuck on outpost duty because of bullet dodge, Melanie I just got her to 24 and well, the heroes are still in epic mode except for Maggie and Daryl





    ATLAS-Z
  • Tapatio75Tapatio75 Member Posts: 636
    My main team is Abe Irene and Barbara
  • ATLAS-ZATLAS-Z Member Posts: 2,538
    Tapatio75 said:

    My main team is Abe Irene and Barbara

    Hey, I'm not saying David is useless, farm from it, just not Pink-worthy. If you paired him and Melanie with a MAX Defensive Bruiser(Morgan Idealy) or MAX Defensive Assault (Abe/Rufus) you will enjoy some Revenge mayhem. Useful in certain scenarios.

    I'm still looking for a Revenge Hunter or two with my other Ideal traits.

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    Tapatio75
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