New Rick and Morgan traits

In reviewing the traits for the new heroes (who all look amazing by the way - well done, NG ;) ), I came up with some inquiries related to Rick and Morgan. If I understand the mechanics correctly, it would appear to me that Morgan's overwatch attacks (at least once you unlock vigilant trait) will be significantly more powerful than his regular attacks. At 5 stars, Morgan's leader trait (which, for all intents and purposes, is vigilant-for-all, if I'm interpreting it correctly) gives +50% total damage to OW attacks, and his vigilant trait gives +32% total damage to OW attacks, for a total of +82% total damage to OW attacks. It is my understanding that these numbers would stack on top of the base OW damage of 50% total damage, for a grand total of 132% total damage on OW attacks. In other words, Morgan's attacks would be significantly stronger in OW than a regular attack. Is this correct? Assuming it is, new Morgan is going to be a beast of a hunter, especially considering he'll rarely be increasing the threat counter given all the OW attacks.

As for Rick, I have a similar question. Looks like his leader trait (in addition to giving charge points) is Ruthless (on steroids)-for-all. So at 5 stars, he gets +50% total damage on a charge attack, which presumably stacks with his ruthless (+21% total damage on charge attacks) for a total of +71% total damage on charge attacks - correct? Taking this one step further, if Rick makes a charge attack without having moved, thereby triggering powerstrike, you would add yet another 35% total damage to the attack for a total of +106% total damage on that charge attack - also correct?

If I'm right, these guys are going to be absolute monsters. >:)
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Comments

  • WellyLugaWellyLuga Member Posts: 3,047
    Don't forget revenge/retaliate also work during the enemy turn and thus get boosted too!
    DBonesromeo
  • mik81mik81 Member Posts: 360
    @DBones How I read is:
    Normal attack: 100
    Overwatch attack: 50
    Damage on overwatch: 50*1.82= 91
  • DBonesDBones Member Posts: 800
    Really? I always thought vigilant stacked, so I thought Morgan’s trait would too. @Kaz care to weigh in on this?
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    Jenngromeo
  • FirekidFirekid Member Posts: 2,974
    I read it as if you're normal overwatch attack does 1000 then with Morgan in lead you'll get 1500.
    romeo
  • mik81mik81 Member Posts: 360
    DBones said:

    Really? I always thought vigilant stacked, so I thought Morgan’s trait would too. @Kaz care to weigh in on this?

    Vigilant stacks with overwatch. I'd think the discussion is if (base damage*.50) *82 or base damage *1.32
    I'd think that instead of getting your base damage and just stacking all multipliers, you actually calculate first your overwatch damage, and then you stack the multipliers. With ow you don't increase the thread counter so I'd think that you need to pay "the cost" of it by doing less damage, therefore (damage*.5)*82 (morgan hero trait+vigilant)
    romeo
  • mik81mik81 Member Posts: 360
    I mean the damage calculations are always a bit harder than that. To start with the damage is variable and we see a "fixed" damage on the screen so... there are some hidden variables in there.
  • WellyLugaWellyLuga Member Posts: 3,047
    @PigBenis It is possible to hit multiple enemies with a hunter in overwatch, it just requires a bit of getting used to and hoping that the walkers line up. If both walk towards you in a line you'll hit them both. That being said it's situational and I agree I'd rather just hit as many as I can.

    I think of the 3 new heroes, I can only see myself using Rick. I think he'll shine in the distance once you have everyone charged up and also in the challenge when there is a pre-charged survivor bonus.
  • DBonesDBones Member Posts: 800
    I don't know, @mik81. I just went and re-read the descriptions of the traits, and to me, they are saying the exact same thing. Overwatch says attack "total damage is increased by X%" and leader trait says attacks "deal +X% total damage." I don't see a substantive difference in that language at all. As such, I read it as though they stack, pushing Morgan's (and others with vigilant when Sniper Morgan is in the lead) overwatch attacks (as well as revenge/retaliate attacks) over and above the normal attack damage base. IMO, that's the very appeal of this hero - he gives a whole new perspective on overwatch/revenge/retaliate by buffing the hell out of them. Otherwise, if they don't stack, this hero trait is really nothing special - a very minor buff to those traits. I don't know, maybe I'm wrong. Would be nice to get some confirmation on this. Help us Obi Wan @Kaz nobi, you're our only hope!
    Board-certified slayer of the dead
    Proud elder of Dead Stalkers
    Jenng
  • DBonesDBones Member Posts: 800
    Umm, totally off topic, and don't want to derail my own thread, but why did those pics post as attachments? I attached them to my post the exact same way I always do (from my computer) but couldn't get them to just show up in the post instead of being attachments.
    Board-certified slayer of the dead
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    Jenng
  • TJSTJS Member Posts: 4,501
    @DBones I have no idea why you're pic's didn't post as usual but I made a little copy 'n' paste so they are easily seen here;


    -
    TJS  -  Member of W-S
    Nation Wars 🇦🇺 Australian Team Captain
    DBonesJenngromeo
  • DBonesDBones Member Posts: 800
    Thanks @TJS, much appreciated!
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    TJS
  • jimmorrison369jimmorrison369 Member Posts: 2,065
    @mik81

    Damage*0.5*0.83 would do actually less damage lol. It would reduce the damage...
    It should be damage*0.5*1.83.

    But I don't presume this.
    Ezekiel has a stacking trait --> retaliate% + ezekiel% (fact!)

    So it is safe to asume overwatch% + vigilance% imo.
    Now comes the question.

    1 --> Damage*(0.5+0.32)*1.5=124.5%
    Or
    2 --> Damage*(0.5+0.32+0.5)=132%

    This is a tough one, if you look at ruthless for example.
    It has a similar description to some other damage boosts.
    It is a separate multiplier however (like possibility 1)

    On the other hand, it make sence to put it in the stack.
    But not quite, because morgans trait also works with retaliate and revenge.
    Vigilance belongs to overwatch.
    Ezekiel belongs to retaliate.
    Morgan's trait caters both + revenge

    Therefore
    Concluding, I suspect possibility 1 seems most likely.
    JenngDBones
  • DoTakDoTak Member Posts: 1,964
    edited October 2018
    Dbones, this thread is an interesting discussion and I too, would like to hear what NG has to say about it because imo, trying to figure out how the math works based on reading the trait descriptions seems, don't want to sound too harsh but, kind of pointless.

    Here's what I mean by that

    The trait descriptions for Marksman and Strong both say they affect weapon damage.
    Pretty sure that is not the case.

    The trait descriptions for Jesus and Abraham's leader traits say they increase total damage. Pretty sure that is not the case.

    Anyway, my comments here aren't meant to disparage your questions or this healthy conversation. I just wish that NG can fix some of these discrepancies by either correcting the wording or the game mechanics so that they actually match.

    Edited Marksman/Strong comment based on new info from jimmorrison
    JenngSPC_TORRESjimmorrison369DBones
  • JackBauerJackBauer Member Posts: 1,550
    @JayZ What means "rupture" for Aaron ?
    -----------------
    Remember to use your charge abilities
  • JayZJayZ Member Posts: 3,716
    @JackBauer I probably shouldn't say too much about that. Something for the community to look forward to!
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  • jimmorrison369jimmorrison369 Member Posts: 2,065
    It's not that hard to find out. You just need to know were to look, and how...
  • jimmorrison369jimmorrison369 Member Posts: 2,065
    I'll do more testing tomorrow, but if you have vigilance. Overwatch will do more damage than a normal attack when you have morgan as leader.

    Of that I'm certain.
    DBonesGovernator
  • jimmorrison369jimmorrison369 Member Posts: 2,065
    Thnx @The_Jer .

    So Tara seems to do 87% of her damage. That is indeed close to 35% stacked.

    Your other shooter however, seems to do 66% damage without vigilance.
    My suspicion is this. My scout has a similar issue. (doing well over 50% overwatch damage without vigilance.)

    the average damage of your shooter was 8888 damage vs average 5859 for overwatch
    In your case there seems to be 2825 damage not affected by overwatch.
    (8888-2825)*50% + 2825 = 5857
    This damage is probably from badges or something.
    It appears to me that (just like ruthless and criticals)
    A part of the damage isn't included in the overwatch calculated.

    Could you tell me something about your badges, and the weapon you were wielding?
  • ShadowaceAzShadowaceAz Member Posts: 3,402
    @The_Jer just curious, do both have the same level, same ★ count, and same badges?

    I assume they have the same weapon, armor, and skill traits.
    Ie Tara has Marksman, so other shooter has marksman
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  • jimmorrison369jimmorrison369 Member Posts: 2,065
    edited October 2018
    @ShadowaceAz
    My scout has a similar issue. Both my scouts didn't have no Strong, I used the same weapon.
    But the badges are different...
    The crux seems to be there, just like with ruthless, criticals, powerstrike...
    Those traits ignore +badges for instance.
    Body-shots too!

    If we had badge change weekend it would be easier to get to the bottom of this actually.
  • The_JerThe_Jer Member Posts: 293
    Here are the screen shots - Tara does not have badges. All my non-hero shooters are badged, and my only hero without Vigilant is Merle
    I wonder if overwatch damage is calculated on survivor & weapon base before badges, and then the badges boost that damage?




    jimmorrison369
  • jimmorrison369jimmorrison369 Member Posts: 2,065
    Thnx @The_Jer

    Overwatch completely ignores the badges.
    That is a awkward calculation.

    The damage you would do without badges is halved,
    then the damage you would've done extra on a non-overwatch attack with badges is added.

    smh
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