"THE GRIND" - Defined

ATLAS-ZATLAS-Z Member Posts: 4,785
I'm seeing a loooooooot of discrepancy on the Forum when folks are referring to "the grind".

Especially when referring to the upcoming Master Mission (skip) challenge format.

So, in order for everyone to be on the same page, we first have to understand each other's vocabulary.

That said, in reference to the Master Mission helping alleviate "The Grind", it is defined below (in my opinion).
________________________________
THE GRIND = The early challenge missions that you can finish so easily that getting 3-stars is a given, with almost no effort. Being forced to play through these missions to reach the higher level "challenging" missions is considered a "grind".
_________________________________


Feel free to comment below :smiley:



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Comments

  • TWDaddictionTWDaddiction Member Posts: 489
    edited September 2019
    Yes. I think the master mission does help. @Fluxxx said it himself. It’s made to relieve those annoying missions and jump to when it actually gets challenging. Even if it allows you to skip one or two rounds....it’s still technically more gas efficient and saved you 5 additional rounds (even if you only skip one!!).

    I for one like that they thought of it. (Even if it was your idea lolll). And it shows that they’re open to the idea and it could even change moving forward. We need to just sit back and see what happens first.
    Deathwish19Sg_Death
  • AchillesVAchillesV Member Posts: 199
    They should lower the Master Mission's RSL by 1 for each mission that already has stars, so players can pick their own poison whether they feel comfortable going for it at +6 or something lower.
    TWDaddictionTCBRITO
  • GrendelGrendel Member Posts: 305
    General definition of The Grind: Having to do the same thing over and over (to the point where it is no longer fun) in order to advance to a more desirable level of play.

    This definition applies to the Challenge and also to running dozens (or hundreds) of scavenge missions to rack up supplies to upgrade buildings so you can then run dozens (or hundreds) of scavenge missions to rack up experience to upgrade survivors and equipment.

    I expect the Master Mission to save me 6-12 maps out of 150 or so. It's better than nothing, but I don't expect it to be a fix to the grind. +6 is too much because many (most?) players will quickly have to choose running the full map for 3* (x6 or x12) or accepting 1* or 2* (x6 or x12) from the hard mission.

    But we'll see how it goes.
    TWDaddiction
  • GrendelGrendel Member Posts: 305
    @ATLAS-Z Please do me a favor. After the next challenge gets going, start a new topic for players to post their experience with Master Missions. Ask them to post # of round passes, starting RSL, how many Master Missions they ran, etc. I think the numbers will speak louder than opinions. (And I have no problem with being wrong if it turns out that it works fine for most players.)

    I would post it myself, but it would get more attention coming from you; and this is all based on your idea. (A great idea, actually.)
    ATLAS-ZromeoSebi
  • ATLAS-ZATLAS-Z Member Posts: 4,785
    > @Grendel said:
    > @ATLAS-Z Please do me a favor. After the next challenge gets going, start a new topic for players to post their experience with Master Missions. Ask them to post # of round passes, starting RSL, how many Master Missions they ran, etc. I think the numbers will speak louder than opinions. (And I have no problem with being wrong if it turns out that it works fine for most players.)
    >
    > I would post it myself, but it would get more attention coming from you; and this is all based on your idea. (A great idea, actually.)

    Sure no problem :smile:



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  • GrendelGrendel Member Posts: 305
    ATLAS-Z said:

    There's a misconception by some, I believe, that "reducing the grind" means "playing the game less"... and that's just simply not true.

    "Reducing the grind" in this context, means "reducing the number of easy missions required" to get to a difficulty that is more challenging.

    Folks taking advantage of this won't be playing less, they'll just be playing more of the missions they want. The hard ones.

    Whether or not the Master Mission will help accomplish this or not remains to be seen, but one thing is for certain... if you don't mind the grind (in this context) you can continue to truck on as you always have before, ignoring the Master missions.

    This is exactly right. The faster I get to the more difficult levels, the more time I will spend trying to chip away at higher maps.
  • ATLAS-ZATLAS-Z Member Posts: 4,785
    edited September 2019
    > @tabernac said:
    > At first blush +6 RSL seems like too much, but I'm going to reserve judgement until after the first challenge. I really like that NG built the infrastructure for the Master mission, so big props to them for that. It may or may not be the case that it needs tweaking. Many thanks to @ATLAS-Z for coming up with the concept!

    I agree. I see weekly video posts by Fartjokes on YouTube, generally starting at Difficulty 37 "Clean".

    This is usually the level I begin finding it difficult to 3-starring missions. I wager this is true for many people and the reason those Clean videos are Handy.

    So if 37 is difficult to 3-star, most people in my shoes will not attempt the Master Mission at difficulty 31 (since it will be +6 = 37).

    I would prefer it the Master skip carried me through to 33-34 personally, since I can 3-star these with little effort.

    As such, I think +3 or +4 would be better, but maybe they have their reasons for starting with +6?

    Hopefully once live we can generate feedback in this direction.



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  • Bill_ZRTBill_ZRT Member Posts: 1,421
    My definition of "the grind" is different than yours. I don't think there's a "right" and a "wrong" definition, but I do think it's important that we understand what we're talking about.

    Here's a post I made a year and a half ago describing what "the grind" is: Is the Grind fixed?. For those who don't like clicking on things, for me, the grind is the increasing amount of time the game requires that a player play in order to max out stars. This is the definition I've heard from a LOT of players, especially those who have quit and who are frustrated with this. Trivial early levels contribute to the grind because you have to slog through them to get to the interesting levels, but getting rid of the trivial levels doesn't address the grind in of itself if I still get to Sunday night feeling I could have gotten a couple hundred more stars if I only had more time.

    A lot of players have families, job, and social lives. They want to do the best they can at challenges and score their absolute maximum, but many run out of time before they can because they're not going to prioritize the weekly challenge over RL obligations and leisure/fun. Many of us like being outside with fresh air and sun. :wink:
    The game hasn't required this much time for players to max out, but as max survivor and gear levels increase, new abilities are introduced, and starting challenge levels stay the same, that time has increased greatly. Players used to be able to max out or just about max out by the end of the challenge. I used to be able to play until I just couldn't get passed any more missions. That just doesn't happen any more, but it used to. Hell, once upon a time there were two challenges a week.

    Maybe NG knows something I don't, because they keep trying to come up with compelling ways to make people want to play their game more. Personally, I would be much, much more inclined to spend significantly more on the game if it meant that I had to be chained to it less.

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  • GrendelGrendel Member Posts: 305
    edited September 2019
    Maybe another option would be to increase the RSL penalty each round. So you can play the Master Mission at +1 RSL on the first round, +2 RSL on the second round, and so on up to a max of +6. That could help guarantee that most players can play 3-5 Master Missions, but prevent them from playing however many NG considers too many.
    tabernacTCBRITOAchillesVTWDaddiction
  • AchillesVAchillesV Member Posts: 199
    edited September 2019
    Grendel said:

    Maybe another option would be to increase the RSL penalty each round. So you can play the Master Mission at +1 RSL on the first round, +2 RSL on the second round, and so on up to a max of +6. That could help guarantee that most players can play 3-5 Master Missions, but prevent them from playing however many NG considers too many.

    I like this idea a lot but would like the range from +2 to +5, or up to +6 but additionally have the Master Mission RSL reduced by 1 for each normal mission done as well, so you can still get some benefit from it later, just have to do a few of the missions normally first.
  • TWDaddictionTWDaddiction Member Posts: 489
    Awesome idea @Grendel above and then of course @ATLAS-Z for this post and idea in general. Ng has proved they listen so threads like this eventually pay off (even if it takes time)
  • rogueDSrogueDS Member Posts: 607
    They cant take all of it away. This will defintely help with the grind. I usually start around round 26 starting at 32 should be easy 3 stars. Success for me i say with helping me get to higher level faster. I usually get 11 to 13 round passes. Some people are way to unrealistic. Good job @ATLAS-Z for idea and @Fluxxx for getting the ball rolling and many others.
  • ATLAS-ZATLAS-Z Member Posts: 4,785
    @Bill_ZRT I think I know what you mean, but that upper level "grind" is less of a grind and more of an intricate dance with the Hospital, the Clock, and your wallet.

    If there were infinite Healing, Time, or free cash, I don't think some players would ever stop pushing.

    My personal upper limit has less to do with my skill, but more to do with how much I'm willing to invest at the highest levels of play.

    This is where you get into the Leaderboards and "fairness", which we know is discussion on par with having a picnic in a giant patch of quick sand. :wink:



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  • SebiSebi Posts: 146
    Grind means in my opinion having to play every mission from 28 to 37... So if it's getting difficult at 38 and I have let's say 14 passes... I'll start playing at 28 something... Plus 6...34... So I'll clear 3 master stages... I'm at 37...but not really... I'm only at 31...oh well... Some are getting confused already... Then I'll be at 32...plus 6...thats 38 for master.... Waw... Now I guess I'll have to get 3 stars at 38 to clear round 32 flawless... Nice... Now that's absurd indeed... But no... It's real... That's pure logical step to reduce grind... So I'm at 33 now... Where I won't usually loose any star... But wait... I see the master... 39...im sure I'll play that one and 3 star it every time... Next is 34...its child's play ofc to 3 star it one by one... But wait... I will 3 star it at 40 ofc... Now I'm at 35...no biggie... 41 is zero for me ofc... Am I the only one that's gonna master 3 stages and then I'll grind happily ever after?
    TCBRITO
  • FirekidFirekid Member Posts: 2,820
    @Sebi depends how the maps fall per level. Also remember you get 2 rounds for each rsl. So I imagine it’ll be 4 or 6 rounds you will be able to use master round for... so 36 maps and 180 gas.
  • CronusCronus Member Posts: 1,272
    edited September 2019
    > @ATLAS-Z said:
    > I'm seeing a loooooooot of discrepancy on the Forum when folks are referring to "the grind".
    >
    > Especially when referring to the upcoming Master Mission (skip) challenge format.
    >
    > So, in order for everyone to be on the same page, we first have to understand each other's vocabulary.
    >
    > That said, in reference to the Master Mission helping alleviate "The Grind", it is defined below (in my opinion).
    > ________________________________
    > THE GRIND = The early challenge missions that you can finish so easily that getting 3-stars is a given, with almost no effort. Being forced to play through these missions to reach the higher level "challenging" missions is considered a "grind".
    > _________________________________
    >
    >
    > Feel free to comment below :smiley:

    “The Grind” is easily defined. It is the levels which I can use Governor as leader along with Maggie and any third posse member I choose and still 3* that map. I can actually get pretty far with that combo. It’s truly mindless gaming with that trio.

    Edit: And use gold training gear on their armor...
    ShadowWalkerBWilsWahooDawg
  • FirekidFirekid Member Posts: 2,820
    The below is taken from my comment in the update notes discussion thread but think it can be repeated here as more relevant to this discussion than that one-

    There are actually 2 types of grind in this game. There is the challenge grind which is the chore of repeating the same six maps 30-40 times the first 10-15 being so easy it’s just a matter of point and click. The master stage will help with this.
    Then there is the resource grind, having to play many many many missions to get anything decent from after mission crates, be that gold, radios and gas or gear XP and tomatoes. This second grind is what the whole game revolves around, getting people playing as much and as often as possible. Yes the master map does not help with this grind but it never was meant to. For that grind to be reduced the odds of silver and gold crates after mission would need to be increased and the odds of finding something other than Xp in them increased also. There is however already a grind fix for this it’s called a credit card and that is why this grind will never be reduced drastically.
    ShadowWalkerATLAS-Z
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