Craft Badges - How random can not be random

Due to the unclear rules regarding the creation of Badges, please explain.
Since Random is written, the rules of creation are to be RANDOM, not predictable !!!. I won't make up for lost time, and not everyone has an account here !!!

BTW. In addition, the official topic on the forum are the rules how to create a badge like random and yet predictable.
I ask, how is this possible in the face of Fair Play Policy?

The Expendables - Polska gildia


  • PastePaste Member Posts: 843
    I would have helped you if you weren't so rude and angry.
    If you want to get better at this game, join Discord and learn badge crafting and much more:
  • marroba2000marroba2000 Member Posts: 259
    The concept of random is not valid in software. A human can tell you a random number, a machine don’t. So, behind the term random always exists an algorithm used to give you the illusion of random.
  • FirekidFirekid Member Posts: 3,221
    @m4s just had a look at the badge screens in the craftsman and the FAQ and it doesn’t say random anywhere.. so where are you getting that word from?
  • rogueDSrogueDS Member Posts: 616
    edited April 2020
    It does say it actually. in his defense. The important is after where the component you use no longer make it random. @m4s @Firekid
  • TJCartTJCart Member Posts: 412
    edited April 2020
    From a semantics standpoint, I have to agree with @m4s and it's even something I've mentioned before regarding what RNG is and isn't. From a business-consumer standpoint, it's a matter of trust. Regarding the topic, I could care less, but if he feels like he's been wronged in some way, then it's his right as a consumer to lodge a complaint.

    However, I don't really see how this is covered in the Fair Play Policy. It's not similar to any of the things they list under the "Cheating & exploiting" section. I guess it could be "Knowingly exploiting a bug" under the "Other violations" section, except that NG has acknowledged it's existence and essentially blessed off on it not being an exploit.

    I guess it would most closely resemble a "false advertising" case--the fix probably being that NG needs to remove the word "random" from their description verbiage. Perhaps it's time for a class action lawsuit and NG can pay out millions in damages to the player base!

    (Your individual share of the payout will be 1.4 badge(s) of rare value or greater)
  • FirekidFirekid Member Posts: 3,221
    Fair play! I read that but completely glossed over the word random! It do suppose it depends on what it you call random, as the shape is always random....
  • LoneWanderer360LoneWanderer360 Member Posts: 628
    The real question is, why the hell would you want it to be truly random? It's much better for players that there is some kind of system we can use to get the badges we want.
  • SteeboonSteeboon Member Posts: 684
    The code is programmed to be random but white hats has "unrandomize" it.
  • cyclon98cyclon98 Member Posts: 60
    You never know the exact;
    - shape
    - % / flat value
    - bonus condition with which trait / hero

    So it's still random.
  • BurmeliinisBurmeliinis Member Posts: 1,225
    cyclon98 said:

    You never know the exact;

    - shape

    - % / flat value

    - bonus condition with which trait / hero

    So it's still random.

    That's not entirely correct.

    - You know the effect (also if it is % or flat)
    - You know the bonus condition (none / hero / trait / class) but not for example which hero
    - You know the slot, but only even / odd (i.e. either slot 1/3/5 or 2/4/6)
    - You don't know the exact value
    - You don't know which set it is (A-E)
    - There is also a chance that the badge will be better than the components (i.e. 3 star pieces might turn into a 5 star badge)
    Ingame username: Jubjab
  • cyclon98cyclon98 Member Posts: 60
    Yeah, that's my point. So I said you don't know "exact" value..
  • PastePaste Member Posts: 843
    Technically TS is right that this pattern isn't "random". Randomness within the pattern for the badge's quality or which direction/slot, trait, class or hero you get also doesn't make it random.

    Making it fully random would have been a lot easier than programming this system, so they definitely had some purpose(s) for making it.

    Example of such purposes:
    * Avoiding disconnecting cheats - Since the game is semi-offline there used to be ways to selectively undo/redo, hoping for better luck. With fixed cycles then the outcome will still be the same.
    * Internal testing - Testing breakpoints in levels with badges (this could have helped them decide the maximum value for DR and CC for example). It's also why cheat codes were invented.
    * Intentional weighting of badges, their values, effects, traits etc - Assuming they either wanted some badges to be hard to craft or for badges to be mostly evenly distributed.

    Or they could have put it there for us to find, which I doubt a bit (it's very complex for that).

    The person who wrote the copy saying it was random may not even have known about the system, or was trying to keep it a secret. It's also reasonable to assume they have to adjust the info to the limited surface of small mobile devices.

    No one has been "wronged" by this. NG hasn't published the cycles. That was done by players who discovered it. And if you're not dedicated enough to come to the forum to learn about the game's mechanics etc this is your problem.
    If you want to get better at this game, join Discord and learn badge crafting and much more:
  • PastePaste Member Posts: 843
    m4s said:

    I play the game, and I have all the instructions in the game, not in the forum.
    There is no link to the forum to properly use the game.

    Cool story.

    I have read the instruction manual to my camera, so I expect to stay competitive as a top photographer without investing time learning from others what they do, and looking at their results.

    I also have an instruction manual to my car, so I don't need driving lessons or a licence.
    If you want to get better at this game, join Discord and learn badge crafting and much more:
  • DuffraineDuffraine Unconfirmed, Member Posts: 2
    > @m4s said:
    > (Quote)
    > (Quote)
    > I play the game, and I have all the instructions in the game, not in the forum.
    > There is no link to the forum to properly use the game.
    > I am based on the information available in the game instructions, and the instructions appear random
    > (Image)

    So what are you doing here on the forum? How the h... you find the link??

    Im not a big fan of badge system for me ng could cancel it and play like old times, for sure lots of top players used some network hacks to get needed badges
  • PastePaste Member Posts: 843
    m4s said:

    Reading the instructions does not make you an expert !!!

    That was obviously my point. People who want to get better gather together in communities and share knowledge, Just playing the game only gets you so far. Without looking for more knowledge and engaging with those communities you shouldn't expect to stay competitive with those who do.
    If you want to get better at this game, join Discord and learn badge crafting and much more:
  • VirtualSwayyVirtualSwayy Member Posts: 58
    edited April 2020

    TIME TO FEED THE TROLL... A big 'ole meal!!!

    @m4s the very complete explanation(s) I give below will help you understand this better technically, I hope, but they won't help with the one central thing your post demonstrates: You are angry, and as a result... you have cut yourself off from a benefit that is freely available to everyone. I sympathize if you found it late and wasted some components along the way. That happened to me as well, but now that you are here, don't be angry... Be glad! The long hard winter of you wasting components is over!!! If you want it to be...

    If you are able to get past the anger, at the end of this post I've included a link to get you started, in hopes you decide to jump on this gravy train with the rest of the community, and use freely available info to greatly benefit your game progression, like the rest of us do. People are glad to help if you just ask, instead of accusing them of cheating, which would be a highly offensive part of your post, IF... it wasn't so so comically based in your misunderstanding of the issue, which I will now help you with... using simple examples, and even an illustrations (PICTURES!), Here are the (re)explanation(s) you need:

    -----------FIRST OFF, THESE FORUMS ARE LINKED IN_GAME---------------------
    You argue that the wealth of info available to you here is inaccessible, or somehow does not count, because it is not inked to in-game, but...
    FALSE! It is linked in-game. It's called the social tab buddy. News >Social. Check it out.
    Ok... that's one down... now, let's move on to the many other arguments you make that are also based in inaccuracy or ignorance.

    1) RNG: not predicted; 2) Every Badge: still random 3) Cheating: not occurring 4) In-Game: says crafting non-random in part

    Your post seems to marvel at how something random can be non-random... So, allow me to explain, as I do below, the fundamental truth that random and not-random go together! Easily... And often.... In games... In nature... In everything, because complex outcomes that we care about and want to predict (like a badge) are never caused by a random number roll alone. What do we care about enough to want to predict? Outcomes! Complex outcomes (like badges) are caused by multiple factors (random and not), interacting. I will also try to re-explain, as simply as possible, the many comments above that you seem to have completely missed the point of:

    -----------------------PREDICTING RNG {VERSUS} PREDICTING OUTCOMES---------------------------

    You're understanding of what is random (versus what people are predicting) is the root cause of your trouble comprehending the arguments made in these comments. Your RNG definition illustrates your focus on pure RNG rolls, which is problematic for your understanding.
    m4s said:

    (RNG)... generates... numbers... that cannot be reasonably predicted .

    Your correct definition of RNG has never been violated (even though you seem to think it has), so RNG should be of no concern to you. It works just like you want it to work. It's a black hole that players can't predict and so naturally, RNG rolls are NOT what players attempt to predict. No cares about, tries to, or is able to predict any random badge rolls. RNG rolls are random, aren't predicted by players, and make badges random (just like you want them to be)). Yes every single badge ever crafted is actually still random, meaning that the crafter is never able to FULLY PREDICT THE OUTCOME in advance. So RNG is safe. You can now ignore RNG and focus on what is actually being predicted, which is what you actually object to, which is partially predicting outcomes.

    A MULTI-CAUSAL OUTCOME is what players attempt to predict (what the final badge will be). This outcome is a combination of: 1) RNG rolls that lead to the UNPREDICTABLE PORTIONS of the outcome, AND ALSO --> This is the part you are missing --> 2) some RULES that lead to PREDICTABLE PORTIONS of the outcome.

    Players only predict the rule based portion of the outcome. See below:

    The world is full of outcomes (effects) that are caused by a combination of predictable(non-random) and unpredictable (random) factors, such as:

    The outcome of a dice roll is predictable (in part) because part of the outcome is caused by (non-random) constraints (how many sides, what numbers on the sides). With a 6 sided die, we can predict with 100% confidence that the outcome will never be 7, or 32, or any other number than 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, or 6.
    In Badges... See below. "- You know the effect (also if it is % or flat)" {caused by non-random rules}

    The complete outcome of the roll is UN-predictable because the overall outcome is caused (in part) by a random factor (which of the six sides will be rolled).
    In badges... You don't know the exact value" {caused by random rolls}

    Predicting probabilities allows further prediction of randomness (In Badges... this is like predicting the probability (75%,25%) that using a certain recipe will trigger one of the two possible outcomes.

    Granted @Paste already schooled you on this, but since you completely missed his point, hopefully rolling dice is easier to understand than his several real world examples.

    ---------==----------BADGES AS AN OUTCOME: BOTH PREDICTABLE AND RANDOM-----------------

    PREDICTABLE FACTORS: {added for effect}
    - You know the effect (also if it is % or flat)
    - You know the bonus condition (none / hero / trait / class) but not for example which hero
    - You know the slot, but only even / odd (i.e. either slot 1/3/5 or 2/4/6)
    RANDOM FACTORS: {added for effect}
    - You don't know the exact value {of the effect}
    - You don't know which set it is (A-E)
    - There is also a chance that the badge will be better than the components (i.e. 3 star pieces might turn into a 5 star badge)

    To nube 'splain @Burmeliinis factually correct info a bit more.... You may have missed his point because you seem to think that a partially random outcome (which people often, and correctly, refer to simply as "random") can not be partially predicted, which is just flat out false (illogical even), and addressed by me above. Badges perfectly illustrate how random factors and predictable factors often co-exist to create an outcome that can properly be called BOTH random AND predictable depending on what portion of the causes/outcome you are discussing. @Firekid and @cyclon98 also try to explain this to you, granted in a much shorter way.

    ---------------THE DEFINITION OF "RANDOM": technical usage; probability theory context-----------

    Lets go back to the dice rolling; literally the textbook example of probabilities. in probability theory, the die roll "Event" is actually considered a fully random "EVENT" (causal event; NOT outcome we care about). The 1-6 constraint is called the "sample";range of outcomes... Dice/Gambling is a simple but effective demonstration that the "random event" (roll; RNG) is NOT the outcome we want to predict; It is simply a cause; not the sole cause, simply one of the factors that lead to the outcome (in gambling: how much we win, if any is the outcome/prediction).

    We can always predict other parts of the OUTCOME (winnings) that are not caused by the "random event" (roll), For example the part of the overall outcome, the amount we would win might be "caused" by the amount we bet, and the payout odds, which are non-random. The "random event" is actually defined purposefully to exclude predictable parts of the overall outcome... this is to isolate random from non-random causal events for analysis of probability of a particular random event (cause) occurring (chances of a winning roll), in order to better predict.... wait for it.... THE OUTCOME (chance of winning[random;the roll] AND amount won[nonrandom;the bet/odds])! Definitions of random as "not able to be predicted" are NOT meant to suggest that no other causes exist for the outcome, or that none of those other causes are predictable.

    Applied to Badges... Under this theoretical definition, your error is confusing a cause, which is the EVENT (RNG - which is and MUST be a random cause, by definition, leading to unpredictable parts of the badge) with it's effect, which is the OUTCOME (BADGE - which can, and does, result from additional non-random causes, leading to predictable parts of the badge. We refer to partially predictable outcomes as "random" outcomes. see below.

    ---------------THE DEFINITION OF "RANDOM": Common usage; multi-causal outcome context-----------

    Show me a person that thinks the dictionary captures the full meaning of words in context and I'll show you a person of average intelligence (at best). So, we need context, which we now have. We know a badge is not simply a RNG roll so RNG definitions are useless here. A badge is an outcome with mixed random and non-random causes so we need to look at what people commonly mean when they say a multi-causal outcome is "Random". Any fluent English speaker should know that they almost never mean an outcome is FULLY random, if for no other reason than FULLY random outcomes barely exist outside of textbook examples.

    - Example: College roommate picked "at random" out of a hat. (you predict outcome is not opposite sex; it's a same sex dorm; outcome will be freshman/sophomore; upperclassmen live off-campus) You can't predict the exact outcome so it's random, even though you can predict a lot of things abut the outcome.

    Applied to Badges... Under this contextual definition, your error stems from misinterpreting of what is meant by "Random Badge We know that a badge is an outcome, so we know that "random" as an adjective describing a badge, means what it means for any outcome... that SOME of its causal events are RNG rolls, not that ALL of them are, meaning that SOME of the badge you craft is unpredictable, not that ALL of it is. The game actually named one non-random cause. see below

    ----------------------THE GAME ISN'T MISLEADING: IT SAYS RANDOM AND NON-RANDOM---------------------------------------

    Now @rogueDS already 'splained this, but you seem to have missed his point as well, so let me restate it and and draw you a little picture.

    The game DOES NOT SAY BADGES ARE FULLY RANDOM... In fact, it actually indicates the opposite (that some parts are caused by non-random factors, thus predictable), in the very screen shot you linked.

    I always like messing around with Paint, so check it...

    -------------------PREDICTING CRAFTING ISN'T CHEATING OR EXPLOIT-----------------------

    @TJCart was way nicer than I am going to be in explaining this has zero to do with the Fair Play Policy. Here is why:

    You seem to think you are at a disadvantage relative to players who understand and utilize the non-random factors to their advantage. Reading this thread, that is believable LOL! You seem to have literally zero knowledge of it, and seem not to want to be troubled to like... read the forum to lean? You also don't seem to be comprehending a lot of what has bee said here, so yea, you are disadvantaged relative to players who are very motivated to learn, and are very smart. You're at a BIG disadvantage, which is not caused by the game, or other players cheating, or harassing you. The cause is your unwillingness to learn (and/or inability).

    Lastly on the Fair Play issue... Information is freely shared. See the link at the end below for just one example of people freely sharing this info.

    ------------------------------------PREDICTABILITY IN BADGES IS GOOD FOR YOU!!!--------------------------------------

    The best argument in the whole thread for you to simply learn the system other players use, and not make posts crying ab out fairness was made by @LoneWanderer360 . PREDICTABILITY HELPS PLAYERS! The only problem is you have cut yourself off fro the benefits, and that seems to also have made you real angry. SO that's a real easy fix bro... Follow that link above to the guide by JayZ, and use that as a starting point. From there, ask other players for help like other players do (and I did). People seem glad to help others learn here, so COME JOIN IN!

    -------------------BE THANKFUL FOR THE HUGE GIFT OTHER PAYERS FREELY GAVE YOU-------------------------------

    Another comment you really should think about before you decide to stay angry is @Steeboon 's when he says:
    Steeboon said:

    The code is programmed to be random but white hats has "unrandomize" it.

    That's a metaphor of course, because it's not actually white hate hackers manipulating code. Its a metaphor for a lot of very smart players simply playing the game, but also doing A LOT of work, FOR YOU!!! Recording their crafting results, sharing those results with others to create large data sets, analyzing those data, recognizing patterns, testing to confirm or disprove the theory, and finally writing that information up, making guides and spreadsheets FOR YOU TO USE!!!


    Of the explanation... But....

    - --------------------- THIS IS WHAT YOU SHOULD DO NOW --------------------

    STEP1: Ditch this whiny post (unless to apologize) & never again accuse players of cheating simply for knowing more than you.


    STEP3: ASK OTHERS FOR HELP IF YOU NEED IT (Then thank them!)

    STEP4: Enjoy the good life (and your phatty new badges, now that you're a positive community member and no longer angry)

    ----------------------THIS IS WHERE YOU SHOULD START---------------------

    This link to JayZ's guide which is stickied at the top of this forum. This links to the badge crafting section, which is the best overall explanation for beginners I've seen. His guide gets you started and tells you the major points, without overwhelming you with the full complexity of every little detail. Once you start using his guide and have more questions, post them and people will link you to the many more advanced resources that exist (but that would probably just confuse you at first).

    ------------------------Good Luck! ------------------------------------------------

    I hope this helps you. If not.... At least I got a nice link ready for the next troll, or the next angry guy who was just too dim, or too angry, to realize he can have the good stuff too... if he wants it....
  • magicmagic Member Posts: 197
    @m4s When badge crafting was introduced in september 2017 it was clearly not completely random, as they wrote in the update:

    - Earn components and try out different formulas for the best results
    And they did confirm it further at a later date, maybe because the community hadn't discovered the secret about patterns and how to switch between them:
    Shteevie said:

    In the case of component recipes, we specifically wanted to build a feature that encouraged theorycrafting, pattern recognition, sharing recipes and results, and other forms of discussion.

    It took more than two years from the feature was released to the information about how to switch patterns reached the forums, and there are probably more things about crafting we do not know.

    I agree with you that this information should have been clearer in-game. But this forum is an official forum, and in almost every game you miss a lot of information if you don't read the official forum.

    The creators of the game have decided to place this feature in the game, probably to encourage the community to work together to find out how it works. You can like it or not, but it do add some depths to the game.
    I am collecting badge crafting results. If you want to contribute please note down as much about each crafting as you can in the sequence you craft and send it to me. Recipe, effect and bonus condition is especially interesting.
    Discord server to discuss badge crafting:
  • PastePaste Member Posts: 843
    You act like a group of illuminati people got this chart from nowhere and decided to keep it to themselves. This characterization is ridiculous.

    It was the biggest community effort in the game ever to create it (hundreds of hours). We had to go to every place in the chart and try every jump. Some took hundreds of crafting just to discover one jump. It was work in progress until very recently, and even then Grady was still working on finding additional information that is not in the published version. In addition explaining the system is very hard. I spent a lot of time doing that. JayZ spent much more. The only reason you know about the chart is that people spent time to map it out and then explain it, but instead you attack us.
    If you want to get better at this game, join Discord and learn badge crafting and much more:
  • marroba2000marroba2000 Member Posts: 259
    Health with green fragments:

    Gives you DR. 
    But this is Random and the cycles wizards have been defeated!!!
    allelujah!!! 🤦🏻‍♂️
    ghost_pepper[Deleted User]FuriousMoldovan
  • MetalMetal Member Posts: 492
    Just some more NG bull shi, took away all the hours spent to get the good list now they put there version of recipes and of course I tried it for Health and got CC just like the old days, thx NG for nothing again.
    [Deleted User]
  • ghost_pepperghost_pepper Member Posts: 1,185
    I think they turned it into the ultimate gamer slot machine. You're gonna start pulling the lever. And then you're gonna keep pulling it. And you're not gonna stop.

    That's not a game.
    [Deleted User]marroba2000
  • marroba2000marroba2000 Member Posts: 259
    Health with green fragments:

    Gives you DR. 
    But this is Random and the cycles wizards have been defeated!!!
    allelujah!!! 🤦🏻‍♂️
    @[email protected]_pepper, it’s just sarcasm. 
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