Five biggest problems in current GW format



  • BurmeliinisBurmeliinis Member Posts: 1,083
    I'm still not 100% convinced. Even if you start at the jump sectors 4-D and 4-G and don't go lower, you have 188 missions at your disposal.

    Doing all sectors from there except 6-H uses 176 swords and nets you 8643 points (or 8835 if you don't lose a single mission and can double 4 missions from the 6-H sector). If you skip 5-C and 6-C you lose out on an average of 39 points, so you need to stack on missions lvl 42 or higher to get some extra points. Let's say you manage do double 24 missions on lvl 43, that gives 42 points. That would net you 24*3=72 points.

    The screenshots from the "Duel of Titans" thread seems to indicate that the global top teams usually make 8000-8500 points per battle, which as shown above is reachable without practically any doubling.

    Yeah, I can see that this might make a difference at the absolute top, but I would still argue that for the vast majority of teams, doubling simply is not really worth the effort. Absolutely, use it at the very end of the war when you notice you don't have enough swords to clear any more sectors, but otherwise it rarely is worth the effort.
    Ingame username: Jubjab
  • KarajocaKarajoca Member Posts: 370
    Worst thing i could do is just ignore those small differences, think is not worth the effort, complete sectors we usually do, enemy see all that and then calculate and do what is needed for win. @Burmeliinis

    We track eachother, we know exactly who completed which map, and can guess if enemy is stuck somewhere. If you very soon start "low" sectors like 1-D or 4-C you signed a dead penalty, your score is too predictable

    It's a battle of nerves, everyone wait enemy to do the first move... from 4 battles last week i stayed up to 3AM in 3 of them.
    Nobody makes us to do this, it's our choice i know, but i am not that kind of guy who can go sleep peacefully, wake up to defeat, don't care - move on. Not if i know i could do more.

    Maybe would be better if we can't see "live score" of enemy at all. You would just focus to do your best, finish your attacks quicklier. I don't know...
  • > @maku11 said:
    > We need a week off. The current format is too busy.
    > One guild member stopped at 1400 stars in this challenge. He usually gets about 2400.
    > And he wants to move on to a more casual guild because he's tired.
    > It's getting harder and harder to maintain a competitive guild.

    tell him we take them to our casual guild name добро
  • rogueDSrogueDS Member Posts: 616
    Regarding kill alls I did them by myself up to level 42. I had 5 attacks left over. I did 1 at 42 2 at 41 1 and 40 and 2 at 39. I got 602 points for the first time ever. This was on a 5 vs 5 battle. Out team did not touch g or f. The points at end for doing higher kill alls definitely add up. I think 602 points with 5 people is very respectable. I only used a grenade and medkit once in the same map by the way.
  • BurmeliinisBurmeliinis Member Posts: 1,083
    edited May 2020
    Sure, but don't get blinded by personal scores, as the node rewards are significant.

    Let's take an example again, now with 5 players.

    Complete all the small nodes 4-C to 4-F as well as 5-F and 5-G (levels up to 42). This uses 56 swords, so you can use 34 to double. Let's say you are very lucky and there are 2 kill all missions in all nodes. Doubling in 6-F and 6-G as well as in 5-F and 5-G gives you 4073 points. Total points contributed by players is 2842 points, or 568 points per person. Looks good, yes?

    If you instead complete both 6-F and 6-G, that takes 24 swords, so you can only double with 10 swords. Do that on maps 6-F and 6-G. It gives you 4579 points, or over 500 more! But total points contributed by players is lower at 2724 points, or 545 in average per player.
    Ingame username: Jubjab
  • Mario_RomeroMario_Romero Member Posts: 233

    I hate Guild Wars.

    This game mode shouldn't exist.

    It does nothing but stress everyone out. The recently p2w factor added with the (s)toolbag just put lots of players out of the equation too.

    I wouldn't even argue on "fixes" or anything, as the way this mode was designed simply can't be fixed. NG invested a lot though and wants to make it happen by tweaking tweaking tweaking. It will not work, ever, if done the way it currently is. Sorry to say that like this. Players are engaged in one week, but broken and burned out the next, frustrated and considering quitting the game.

    Rethink this from scratch before it gets worse.

    Shocked as i am at the source of this pearl of wisdom :D i could not agree more!
  • WellyLugaWellyLuga Member Posts: 3,135
    edited May 2020
    I think there has to be a win bonus, generally I don't care for the leaderboard or prestige, I care about shiny stuff I can buy in the shop for my efforts. If i dont get anything extra for being better and successful, why bother?

    As for everything else I couldn't agree more. Tools especially has been talked about to death so you can see the effect they have had by the amount the community is talking about them. Like you say, it was perfectly balanced previously. Gold could help you for healing so you could play again sooner after a fail, but the damage was done by the fail. The best players were the ones who didn't need to spend the gold re-starting because they didn't fail. Now we see players paying 70/140/210 gold per mission to pass a map they would normally fail. Instead of a map costing 2-3 attacks and being a deciding factor in a war, it now just costs gold. It has absolutely ruined the game mode for me.

    As for doubling, I won't get into the math behind it but it has never made sense to me and it's been a problem since the original form of GW was introduced. Red gas dominated because people would just mindlessly pile on the same map. Why put code into the game to show the blue dot and warning sign to say another player is playing that map? There should be a drawback for ignoring it.
  • KarajocaKarajoca Member Posts: 370
    Ok, one last time about most discussed - jumping tactics. @Burmeliinis

    I really don't know what is so hard to understand. We do our normal route (4-6D, 4-6E, 4-5F, 4-5G) ,5282 pts, 108 attacks

    If we add "easy" sectors you mention (1D,2E,3E,3F,4C,5C) and few jumps, score is only around 8100, that stopped being option, it's too low.

    We instead try to find what can be easiest sector of hard ones(5H,6F,6G) decide to try one, usually the one who has the most KAZ missions. We end up completing two with few fails(usually it would be too risky to start the 3rd one)
    Let's say we completed 5H, and 6F(41-43) that is 24 attacks more, and 1380 points more that gives 6662 in total. 48 attacks can left in this point, to complete 1D,2E,3E,3F ... but that my friend, never happen. There are always some fails.

    Ok, still should be enough to complete 3 (36 attacks) 1D,2E,3F - 1450 pts, which is 40,27 VP per map.
    Little C-route you keep mentioning is even worse, and never an option. It gives "only" 38 VP per map.

    So, you here choose 1-D route, add that on score, you came to number 8112. Of course, there are few "leftover" swords, that we can use on jumps, score can go up to 8500, maybe even 8600 like you say.

    BUT, whatever you do, is not enough. To maximize points, Best is to completely ignore 1-D, and do all 36 planned attacks for that + leftovers for high level "kill all". Even if it's only lvl 43, 36 attacks bring 1512 pts, 62 more then left side of map. (+leftovers on top)

    I hope you understand now.

    And let me be clear : This is very hard thing to organize and do. I admire guilds who pull it out, it's great dedication, great performance and well deserved wins. Bringing all this fights on whole new level. I simply want it gone, because it makes battles longer, it's exhausting and if it's not an option, things would be so simpler . I enjoyed, especially battle with Mavericks, so intense, exciting,awesome experience But, Look at us after 1 week of hard battles.Nobody is ready for more ...
  • BurmeliinisBurmeliinis Member Posts: 1,083
    As I’ve understood it, doubling will stay for technical reasons. Otherwise you might have the situation that someone is in a map when their battery dies (or something) , making it impossible to clear the map and maybe halt further progress.
    Ingame username: Jubjab
  • BurmeliinisBurmeliinis Member Posts: 1,083
    There is also some lag with the blue dot and it has happened several times that two players have played the same map by mistake. It would suck to lose the points of one mission in those cases.
    Ingame username: Jubjab
  • ghost_pepperghost_pepper Member Posts: 1,129
    I'd like to see the point multiplier dropped down as suggested to 1.1 or 1.2 at the most. I'd also like to see a very significant rework over reward item point values. Many of them are things casual players in casual guilds will only ever look at and, as stated, seeing a string of losses is demoralizing. Rework this stuff.

    Never getting the win bonus or something really good in the gw shop is like never winning a prize at the fair. Eventually you learn to hate the carnies and never play the rigged games because the whole system sucks. I left that guild and joined a group of communicating winners, which is good for me. But most players i imagine will just quit.
  • KarajocaKarajoca Member Posts: 370

    There is also some lag with the blue dot and it has happened several times that two players have played the same map by mistake. It would suck to lose the points of one mission in those cases.

    But that is exactly what i am talking about. Prevent doubling, either by mistake or intentional. I see i still didn't convince you so i will just drop it here. You don't realize that on top tier this is the only way to win literally. Battles are made to last 22hours so we don't have to worry about time zones, but here we are, that become most important factor again.
    I'll stop here. Let other discuss... i think i made my point for whoever wanted to understand. Need to go to sleep, so i can stay awake up to 4AM when battling tomorrow, Karajoca might moan, but he will always adjust and rise up B)
  • BurmeliinisBurmeliinis Member Posts: 1,083
    Karajoca said:

    Ok, one last time about most discussed - jumping tactics. @Burmeliinis

    I really don't know what is so hard to understand.


    BUT, whatever you do, is not enough. To maximize points, Best is to completely ignore 1-D, and do all 36 planned attacks for that + leftovers for high level "kill all". Even if it's only lvl 43, 36 attacks bring 1512 pts, 62 more then left side of map. (+leftovers on top)

    I never said I didn't understand. It's totally clear. You do a huge amount of work for 62 extra points.

    My point was that for the vast amount of guilds, that are not extremely competitive, that simply is not worth the effort. Those few extra points are very easily wasted in a regular guild, when some players don't follow the plan and you end up not clearing all sectors you intended to do.

    Also, how often is a battle's outcome dependent on 62 points? I would say very rarely.

    So just to make myself perfectly clear. I do not disagree with your guild's plan. Doubling will bring a few extra points when you do it perfectly, and can make sense for top guilds with all players having a good understanding of the plan and time to play at all times, but for the vast majority of guilds, it is not practically possible, and frankly, in the vast majority of cases, not necessary.

    This is quite different from the earlier season, when mindless doubling of pretty much all hard missions was beneficial.
    Ingame username: Jubjab
  • Vlad_UUVlad_UU Member Posts: 10
    edited May 2020
    This is all unimportant as long as there are battles in the game in unequal compositions. Everything else doesn’t matter. This is the main thing. You will be able to understand this only when you give your best, but you will lose to those who are usually weaker than you just because they have 1 or 2 players more than you. And you will lose without options since advantage in 18 or 36 swords - more important all your other problematic issues, including medkits, grenades and even KAZ. :D
  • ignasignas Member Posts: 386
    > @Karajoca said:
    > 1. Allowing guilds to go into battle with 3-10 people and choose days when want to play, choose not to play every day is great. But implemented very wrong. +/-1 I don't know who's idea was to add +/- 1 differences in teams when making matches, but that person must have never really tried to play this game, or get into it at all. Maybe this critics sounds harsh, but it's the fact that is done lazy.
    > Simple solution from my point of view is - Letting guilds select "battle formation" for their guild, or just simply lock the teams when they reach 6,8 or 10 participants
    > Why ? This way you can choose to play with 10players x 4 days, 8x5 , or 4x6 + 2x8. If some guilds don't fallow that and go with 5,7 or 9 players, then it's their mistake, bad organization and they match-up against larger number of players. But for organized ones there is plenty of room to choose "tactics" and how many days they want to play, and to always get to play against SAME NUMBER of players in enemy team because only that way is right way (if no possible matchmaking in same tier just going tier lower should be enough)
    > Allowing minimum of 3 still should be there of course, because of low-end guilds.

    THIS! Allow only 4 6 8 or 10 players per battle. This will make matchmaking easier.

    Or else please explain me @Fluxxx how can you beat guild that is from the same tier having 18 attacks less.
  • KarajocaKarajoca Member Posts: 370
    > @Burmeliinis said:
    > (Quote)
    > Also, how often is a battle's outcome dependent on 62 points? I would say very rarely.
    62 is just starting minimum difference, it always went higher.
    Also, 62 is enough to cover and allow guild who completed only 5-H to beat other one who completed 6-G and didn't double.

    I totally agree, this is issue of only top guilds, still i think it's not working as intended and need to be brought up.

    I brought issues here of all kind of guilds are facing, from low-end guilds caught up in losing streak, can't get rewards and rage quit the game.... through matchmaking issues... to issues big guilds are having.

    We somehow spent most time talking about Jumping... But i think i gave easy solution in my 1st. post about matchmaking, something i think can be done and worth discussing
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