Dream Challenge

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Comments

  • XeRoXeRo Member Posts: 27
    This challenge at the end was so cool and I even broke my record, but in the beginning it was difficult because he ran away from everything that is normal, but it proved to be incredible.
    The crazy creator of Hell Judges from Dream Challenge Contest pt.1 XD
  • WellyLugaWellyLuga Member Posts: 2,529
    edited October 26
    JayZ said:
    I didn't particularly like this challenge @Burmeliinis. Like you said, Day at the Office was a nice map and required a lot of skill. Building Blocks was easy, but could at least be consistently beat with skill.

    The other maps? Just a gold burn. It's not the developers' fault - they came up with some really cool and creative maps. At the end of the day though, all challenge maps rely on the same few strategies at level 50 and it's all about gold spend.

    Hell Judges: restart until you get exploders or favorable movement from fatty/spike
    Escape Map: hope your Bruisers stun and survive
    Attention Class: restart until the walkers are positioned correctly behind the door
    Jail Break: restart until the armored are in the right starting spots and walkers move favorably

    I will say, it was at least a lot of fun to try to develop the end-game strategies. There was at least some novelty in figuring out how to beat the maps. I think I came up with the end-game strategies for Building Blocks and Jail Break (at least from the chats I'm in). Bloody came up with an awesome strategy for Attention Class, and then I saw shane come up with a creative round 63 strategy. So it was at least a bit more interesting than a regular challenge.

    Still, GW is currently the only game mode that is primarily skill and less luck-dependent (although NG keeps pushing it more towards a P2W game mode...)

    This was my feelings exactly. My experience may have been tainted by the fact that it was the first week post-Wild Cup and I was a little burnt out but it was quickly obvious to me that several of the maps were gold sapping maps.

    Hell Judges - Why even have a spawn where you can get all grenades? It's the most spawn dependent map I can think of, the strategy from the start is basically the same as nightmare mode - restart over and over until there are no tanks.

    Jail break - I just don't get, why have 3 crates if the middle box is going to open the two cages every time? What was the purpose of having 3? It just baffles me. Then the positioning of the prisoners and the armoured, why can't they just be the same every time? It was just repeat until you got the armoured in the near cages as anything other than this basically meant that Glenn was grabbed after opening the crate. Repeat ad nausem. 

    Attention class was a cool concept, but again I just don't get why there are two rooms if they're going to be exactly the same? It was just pointless to me, should I go left? Or right? Doesn't matter, they're exactly the same. At least be a bit clever about it, set each room up in a way that gives the player a choice of what they prefer. But no, as it is repeat until your assault starts charged and hope that the walker spawn is kind with the crates. Worst kind of maps.

    The other 3 were solid maps. Day in the office and building blocks were cool maps, I liked that the walker spawns were exactly the same every time. Why can't there be more of this? The spike, assault and tank were consistently spawning in the same spot, let the map difficulty speak for itself with what you put in it, not the bullshit RNG spawn crap we see time and time again. We need more of these SWAT type maps in the game. Escape map was just another reverse escape/garden map, nothing new here. Get on the gate and hope your stuns work. This map could use some balance, you're obviously not going to go to the right with 2 spikes over 5/6 normal walkers so it only gave the illusion of choice over how you could play it.

    These were just my thoughts and on the whole we saw some of the best and the worst sides of NML maps. When the set has more of the worst side than the best side, that's where I lose interest. I got to RSL45 on Friday and then went and enjoyed my weekend.
    TCBRITOThunderstormShezza10
  • LootHoarderLootHoarder Member Posts: 123
    edited October 26
    @WellyLuga the three switches in jailbreak were so that based on differing strats and current RSL and positioning, you might want to do one at a time vs both at once.  Good example here you can see in JayZ's videos where at rsl 43 he's doing the one at a time method with charged shooters aaron/haggie and lead stabby rick then for his rsl 50 clear video you just don't have time to do that anymore and the only really viable strat becomes the beta herd/glenn interaction/move strat which you're going to have to do the both prisons at once to be able to get out in time. 
    in general, the main reason you can't do all the same setup everytime is because at that point it becomes i move to space a, then i move to space b, then i move to space c = win every time.  no thinking, and you can literally script the entire sequence of play with no thought in mind whatsoever because the entire game can be solved with a specific sequence (think of tic tac toe - standard 9 square 2 dimensional tic tac toe is a cat's game tied every time; 3d 3x3x3 tic tac toe is solved for x wins every time; 4d tic tac toe with 4x4x4x4 is solved for o wins every time as i recall, etc.). As such, you've gotta have variance.  Also it's a freemium game and NG's gotta make some dough.
    In general, one of the main things for challenges vs GW is that given that you know the maps by the time higher RSL strats are into play, there are only a few strats at all viable at high RSL on any challenge map ever made (beta herding, ping pong kiting, sasha root/stunning body shotting, bruiser stun and run, etc.).  And every single map is beatable by the right combination of that necessary strat and a little skill/rng.  GW doesn't have the same viability of guess and check to see exactly what combo to use on a particular level, although it's still a short list of combinations that are going to be viable at that level (if you think any strat is viable based on pure skill at max rsl then let's see someone do a top GW kill the tough walkers level with only non-hero assaults and post a video of that!).  Also noted is that with the re-introduction of red gas (provided it gets turned back on...) then there's more of an element of P2W with every change down that road.
    At the end of the day, for max rsl maps of any variety of game mode, there isn't the same level of choice as there is at lower rsl because at that high difficulty only certain strats are viable. 


    edit: 4d tic tac toe is 4x4x4x4 rather than 4x4x4 lol

    Burmeliiniszombieornottobe
  • ArtminiusArtminius Member Posts: 492
    FWIW, I got a participation award. Go look at my original design, it's nothing like the final. (mine was probably HARDER!) 😁
  • LootHoarderLootHoarder Member Posts: 123
    In general, I loved the dream challenge because it was entirely new to play, had a combination of different strategies in use for the map set (wasn't every map is an RNG RGG three bruiser stun and run, etc.) and had a bit more difficulty especially on the outset.  I'm a bit of a casual and mostly f2p (i buy a gas booster from time to time but typically don't have as much time to play as some folk) but i managed to get myself a new personal best and i managed to also get a personal best on the leaderboards with #9 in Canada this week. 
    Can't wait for dream challenge pt 2!  and 3.  and 4!  and...
  • WellyLugaWellyLuga Member Posts: 2,529
    @WellyLuga the three switches in jailbreak were so that based on differing strats and current RSL and positioning, you might want to do one at a time vs both at once.  Good example here you can see in JayZ's videos where at rsl 43 he's doing the one at a time method with charged shooters aaron/haggie and lead stabby rick then for his rsl 50 clear video you just don't have time to do that anymore and the only really viable strat becomes the beta herd/glenn interaction/move strat which you're going to have to do the both prisons at once to be able to get out in time. 
    in general, the main reason you can't do all the same setup everytime is because at that point it becomes i move to space a, then i move to space b, then i move to space c = win every time.  no thinking, and you can literally script the entire sequence of play with no thought in mind whatsoever because the entire game can be solved with a specific sequence (think of tic tac toe - standard 9 square 2 dimensional tic tac toe is a cat's game tied every time; 3d 3x3x3 tic tac toe is solved for x wins every time; 4d tic tac toe with 4x4x4x4 is solved for o wins every time as i recall, etc.). As such, you've gotta have variance.  Also it's a freemium game and NG's gotta make some dough.
    In general, one of the main things for challenges vs GW is that given that you know the maps by the time higher RSL strats are into play, there are only a few strats at all viable at high RSL on any challenge map ever made (beta herding, ping pong kiting, sasha root/stunning body shotting, bruiser stun and run, etc.).  And every single map is beatable by the right combination of that necessary strat and a little skill/rng.  GW doesn't have the same viability of guess and check to see exactly what combo to use on a particular level, although it's still a short list of combinations that are going to be viable at that level (if you think any strat is viable based on pure skill at max rsl then let's see someone do a top GW kill the tough walkers level with only non-hero assaults and post a video of that!).  Also noted is that with the re-introduction of red gas (provided it gets turned back on...) then there's more of an element of P2W with every change down that road.
    At the end of the day, for max rsl maps of any variety of game mode, there isn't the same level of choice as there is at lower rsl because at that high difficulty only certain strats are viable. 


    edit: 4d tic tac toe is 4x4x4x4 rather than 4x4x4 lol

    Fair enough. I might be wrong but I believe the only reason @JayZ ran the Rick and 2 shooter team is because at the time he didn't realise that the middle crate was the magic crate all the time. Had he discovered strategy B before strategy A that video would never have seen the light of day.

    My main gripe was the armoured/human placements and I think they could use some balance. So the nearest two would be armoured/human and the furthest two the same. You would still need some skill/RNG but I just don't think it would be the same slot machine map. I get that NG needs to make some money from repeats but it just takes away from the gameplay. My 2 cents anyway.
    Danski_46zombieornottobe
  • BurmeliinisBurmeliinis Member Posts: 683
    Great discussion everyone. One point which also easily gets forgotten is that a lot of players don't go much above 1000 points. At that point various tactics still work, adding to the enjoyment of that cadre of players, and to max players as well when searching for the best strategy.

    But fully agree with @JayZ and @WellyLuga that this mapset can absolutely not be rerun without some pretty major modifications. Now that the community has discovered the best way to play all maps, there needs to be changes to keep things interesting.

    BTW, I was also thinking about the Attention Class map and the redundant double rooms. The problem here is that no setup is really ideal:
    - Identical rooms with identical walkers (as it was now). Boring. What is the point?
    - Identical rooms but rng decides for example that one room has 2 tanks and the other 1. That would really make people angry, as it would lead to a 50% pure luck chance if the map is easy or hard.
    - Rooms are hardcoded as different. Would lead to a Escape Map type setup where one room would always be the optimal choice.

    My suggestion: add a one-tile fence "window" so you can see into the rooms partially, and have some rng so that one random room is easier. Based on how well you peer through that window you will know which room to go to, but if you just quickly look, you might miss a tank hiding behind a cabinet or camping in a corner. Look for too long and you get taken by the threat spawn.
    Ingame username: Jubjab
    Danski_46ArtminiusShadowWalker
  • GovernatorGovernator Member Posts: 4,106
    I would love to see Jail Break updated where the prisoners are not caught by the Walkers and get into immediate struggles. If this is not fixed, then at least allow them to run away after being freed from the struggle instead of just standing there like rabbits trying to stare down oncoming car traffic. :neutral:
  • WellyLugaWellyLuga Member Posts: 2,529
    @Burmeliinis Nice idea on attention class, I like the idea of being able to peek inside and maybe get an idea of where you like to head. At least then it would feel like I made the wrong decision, rather than me not getting the luck of the draw.

    I should say that I mean no offence to anyone who designed any of the maps. My hat goes off to all the players who won and had the initiative to design something like this, I'm merely a somewhat seasoned and passionate player offering constructive criticism :wink:
  • JayZJayZ Member Posts: 3,597
    Can confirm I had no idea what the middle shelf in Jail Break did till I hit it by accident 😂
    Danski_46WellyLuga
  • DadaDada Member Posts: 44
    Can confirm I had no idea what the middle shelf in Jail Break did till I hit it by accident 😂

    That is not true... You saw my video and asked me... 🤓
    Timboski
  • WellyLugaWellyLuga Member Posts: 2,529
    JayZ said:
    Can confirm I had no idea what the middle shelf in Jail Break did till I hit it by accident 😂

  • FirekidFirekid Member Posts: 2,611
    There really aren’t any maps in this game which don’t rely on luck/rng. Be that starting charged, walker placement or getting charged from sashays leader trait. Anything above 46 is always a gold dump because most of the time your going into a struggle very quickly. So basically there’s no such thing as a perfect mapset but I feel these was pretty damn close. Really enjoyed it and can’t wait for new dream challenge mapsets!
    brucewayne007zombieornottobe
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