Tools and solutions

Anjelos · May 2021

So , people are complaining more and more about tools making the game p2w and competition unfair (including myself).

I would like to propose a solution over this for both guild wars and challenge.

Guild wars :

Usage of tool causing a flat rate punishment . Let's say 5 points . (Can be three , can be seven , can be different number depending on tool)

That way , using one or two tools will cause a small lose , but abuse usage in a mission will make you loose lot of points. Still people will use to get the bonus of sector , but that will come with a cost and might hit back as boomerang .

My thinking is , people most probably will start hit closer to their real level . And more strategy will be implemented on where to hit .

As for challenge , since I don't see any light on changing this ridiculous stop at round 80 , a star could be added over tool usage .
That way ties will be prevented , and competition will rise again . Plus will be a nice motive for people that doesn't spend a lot of money and are closer to f2p than others .

Temptress7 · May 2021

I will have to agree on this...it is getting boring to have ties every week on challenge and because in one week maybe we dont have time not to have the chance to finish with perfect score next week...as for gw i love the new set up of maps but p2w is not fair for everyone...

Firekid · May 2021

Love the idea of an extra star for no tool usage. Not sure about being docked points for using tools in guildwars though. If they were to do that then there would need to be a way of telling which maps have autospawns and which don’t.

Anjelos · May 2021

Firekid said:

Love the idea of an extra star for no tool usage. Not sure about being docked points for using tools in guildwars though. If they were to do that then there would need to be a way of telling which maps have autospawns and which don’t.

Not sure it will be a need for that . Will make it even more random for final result .
As stated , point is to make it more competitive for everyone , so if i get in a high level with autospawn and need tools , i get handicapped for that .
It will not really prevent me from trying even with handicap though , since the sector bonus will again give a nice advantage .
Certainly will make it more as guild war and less of a tool war.

Steeboon · May 2021

People pay for tools and yet get penalized? Don't think that will go down nicely imo. It's like punishing folks who buy special weapons to get further in challenges or GW.

Anjelos · May 2021

Steeboon said:

People pay for tools and yet get penalized? Don't think that will go down nicely imo. It's like punishing folks who buy special weapons to get further in challenges or GW.

Not really.people using tools will still have advantage (as they should cause they spend money on it ) , but the advantage tools give will be much much smaller .
There are many maps that are impossible without tools both challenge and guild war .

Billbam · May 2021

If you want to limit tools just stop selling big bundles...make them only available by chance just like gold and radios. This will prevent players from stocking up and having near endless supplies.

WellyLuga · May 2021

I'd like to see a tool cap, I know it's been mentioned to death but I think it's the best way to level the playing field a little. Something like 20 per player per battle. A F2Per could compete for a few battles but not sustain it against a paying player so they would always have the advantage but it would close the gap.

It would change the way the battles at the top went. At the moment both teams spam tools to their hearts content to clear all the highest sectors and the winner is decided by red gas. Some players spending 60+ tools. It's a joke. With a cap missions might need to be split between the team, you might have to decide between going for max or playing it safe, each tool use would have to be carefully considered.

If you're going down the route of stars/score docking I'd rather be more positive and instead reward tool free play than punish tool use. An extra star or say 10% boost to VP. Those are my thoughts anyway. Tools have had more effect on the competitive side of things than anything I've ever seen and it's completely killed it for me.

Lady J · May 2021

Anjelos said:

(...)
That way , using one or two tools will cause a small lose , but abuse usage in a mission will make you loose lot of points. Still people will use to get the bonus of sector , but that will come with a cost and might hit back as boomerang .
My thinking is , people most probably will start hit closer to their real level . And more strategy will be implemented on where to hit .
As for challenge , since I don't see any light on changing this ridiculous stop at round 80 , a star could be added over tool usage .
That way ties will be prevented , and competition will rise again . Plus will be a nice motive for people that doesn't spend a lot of money and are closer to f2p than others .

100% with you! More strategy will be needed for GW battles, making this mode a real competition, and not a tools war... and the “challenge” (😂 I know... we are talking about tools, and the forced stop at round 80 is a delicate matter here, but can I just highlight, with all respect and explaining to the ones who loved the “forced end” that I also wanted “an end”, that ties need to be prevented, because where is the competition? One can’t even tell for sure if reaching 4878 first will keep him/her at the top...) will be more fun!! 😁 thank you for addressing it 😚😘

Tux77 · May 2021

Some changes are definitely needed and I agree with @Lady J we do need to figure out how they are ranking the scores.

paeaeaesch · May 2021

I would like a cap of 20 tools, as @WellyLuga suggested. Another idea would be to adjust the cooldowns fo every tool, wich would be easy to implement and doesn't need much coding.

Lets say grenades have 6 rounds, flares (most powerful tool) have 10 rounds, so its basically only usable once per mission.

ATLAS-Z · May 2021

If we limit tools, most players will start using way less tools even than the limit, for fear that "the next mission" might be harder and they'll need them.

Which is OK from player side. Ok with me.

But then, that's lost revenue for NGs.

We want to win without buying tools, we want to win without buying gold...

I'm not sure what the answer is here, but I'd love to see some ideas that still encourage spending without promoting pay to win?

(other than the Craftsmen tools suggestion I've pitched a few times, give people lots more "free tools" but they have to work their asses off to craft them themselves.... Here spending is still encouraged because it saves precious time >>> TIME vs MONEY)

JayZ · May 2021

Billbam said:

If you want to limit tools just stop selling big bundles...make them only available by chance just like gold and radios. This will prevent players from stocking up and having near endless supplies.

Yeah. Not sure we’re not talking about this more. When tools were first released, NG sold them only in special holiday bundles. Now they sell them every week or two. Limit the supply of tools and none of this is as big of a problem 🤷🏻‍♂️

I am in favor of tool stars in challenge, but GW maps are so random and can be so shitty and unbalanced, that tool caps and penalties don’t seem like viable solutions. Imagine you’re in the middle of sector 20, come up on a map from hell, and realize it’s impossible for you to pass because there’s a tool cap. A tool cap sounds okay in theory, but players will riot when they first get impacted by hitting their limit.

Increase F2P (or limit P2P) access to tools, don’t change how tools are used...

Anjelos · May 2021

I wouldn't have a problem with a limit on tools , but as mentions by couple of people of people above , NG is also a business , so if they put a limit in usage , sales will drop. And I don't see that happening .
Tbh , we as players wouldn't want this , as income of NG is what makes game going .
The facts are simple to me :
1.Tools are overpowered and make all mission doable , not only from very good players but also from the not so good ones.
2. There are missions , that without tools , you don't even have a fighting chanse anymore.
3. P2w have almost unlimited stock of tools as they make life easyer .
4. New players and f2p have no chanse almost anymore .
5.NG will NOT pur a cap to lower sales in the bandle that is the most profitable .

One solution might have been to nerf tools by needing action point over usage , but as mentioned by some people , i bought something doing specific things , if they nerf after i bought it is a sale scum and it is illegal.

So what left thinking all of the above ?
To me it is only what i suggested , tool drop stars and minus points from guild wars.
Wil not prevent people from buying ,not gonna cause drop of sales for NG , won't make buyers loose their advantage , will helps people that spend less and f2p and rise competition ones again.
Target is not to punish p2w , but certainly close the gap from people abusing them with people that don't.

I thought we all want some change in this game to make it more competitive , at the moment it is pure p2w , giving f2p zero chanse , and looks like the game dies .at least that is the feedback i get from most people ingame .
I am not a f2p offcourse , but the way game goes , it becomes boring and without competition even for paying customers.
Hope people would start thinking outside from what is good for themselves and try to find solutions that will satisfy everyone as much and compromise a little.
.

WellyLuga · May 2021

ATLAS-Z said:

But then, that's lost revenue for NGs.

We want to win without buying tools, we want to win without buying gold...

I am sure NG have their cycles with what is their primary money maker. Once upon a time it was rerolls and reinforce but they served their purpose. This is never about wanting to win for free, I wouldn't expect a team full of F2Pers to be able to compete for an entire season but I would expect them to compete for longer than they currently can now. The distance between the two right now is wider than I have ever seen it in my years of playing this crazy game. There was always a P2W element to it but it was always very well balanced and you could still do relatively well for free. Right now you can't, plain and simple.

JayZ said:

Billbam said:

If you want to limit tools just stop selling big bundles...make them only available by chance just like gold and radios. This will prevent players from stocking up and having near endless supplies.

Yeah. Not sure we’re not talking about this more. When tools were first released, NG sold them only in special holiday bundles. Now they sell them every week or two. Limit the supply of tools and none of this is as big of a problem 🤷🏻‍♂️

I am in favor of tool stars in challenge, but GW maps are so random and can be so shitty and unbalanced, that tool caps and penalties don’t seem like viable solutions. Imagine you’re in the middle of sector 20, come up on a map from hell, and realize it’s impossible for you to pass because there’s a tool cap. A tool cap sounds okay in theory, but players will riot when they first get impacted by hitting their limit.

Increase F2P (or limit P2P) access to tools, don’t change how tools are used...

With a cap in the back of your mind you would prioritize island 20, or maybe if that and island 19 looked absolutely horrendous you might not even try it. You might be able to track the enemy scores to see what they did and win by doing a lower less risky island because they overreached and failed trying to complete the lot. Remember when GW was first introduced and 6H had that fear factor, you didn't always risk playing it because there was a good chance you might fail. I'd like to see that return, right now there is no risk of that. It doesn't have to be as low as 20, maybe even 30. What I hate seeing is one player spending 60+ tools to effectively buy their team the victory, something you had first hand experience with this week

.

You are someone who is obviously very tuned in with the strategy side of the game, navigating the map with your 3 heroes and planning moves in advance with that has always been what made this game special and kept me playing all this time. IMO that has become a secondary side of the game because the primary strategy in your success in the mission is the amount of tools in your tool bag and how well you manage their cooldown...

Increasing tools available for F2P is fine, even @ATLAS-Z suggestion of homemade tools is solid too. Both would improve the competitive state of the game but it wouldn't improve the overall state of it IMO. I guess I am too much of a veteran trying to live the good old days

. All I know is I have enjoyed this game less and less the more tools have taken over.

Paste · May 2021

How about a retroactive tool penalty?

If you use more than 5? tools in one mission, the next 3 missions you get a 20% VP deduction or something similar. So the smartest strategy for a guild with enough heavy hitters would be to play human opponents afterwards until the penalty is over (and to save the hardest mission for last since you could spam tools there without any penalty next). This way tools can still serve their purpose, but it discourages one person having to do all the hard missions. If you take on a tough one for the team your wallet get a break afterwards.

This would not help guilds in the second half of the top 40 list of course, and it would make tracking even harder. And it would definitely piss off a lot of people, but at least they get to finish the mission and know and strategize about the penalty.

WellyLuga · May 2021

Paste said:

How about a retroactive tool penalty?

If you use more than 5? tools in one mission, the next 3 missions you get a 20% VP deduction or something similar. So the smartest strategy for a guild with enough heavy hitters would be to play human opponents afterwards until the penalty is over (and to save the hardest mission for last since you could spam tools there without any penalty next). This way tools can still serve their purpose, but it discourages one person having to do all the hard missions. If you take on a tough one for the team your wallet get a break afterwards.

This would not help guilds in the second half of the top 40 list of course, and it would make tracking even harder. And it would definitely piss off a lot of people, but at least they get to finish the mission and know and strategize about the penalty.

3 missions is maybe a little heavy, maybe the next one. I like it though

Paste · May 2021

Yeah, all the numbers were just my guesstimates of what would work, but I'm chilling in Junkyard myself so I don't have these issues.

SnewfDiggity · May 2021

I’d love to see a meme of a nascar driver changing his own tires 1 by 1 and in other picture a pit crew doing it in about 3 seconds.

Also what about sports teams that have to pay the best players to play on their team.

Lifes p2w isn’t it?

ATLAS-Z · May 2021

SnewfDiggity said:

I’d love to see a meme of a nascar driver changing his own tires 1 by 1 and in other picture a pit crew doing it in about 3 seconds.

Also what about sports teams that have to pay the best players to play on their team.

Lifes p2w isn’t it?

What about like THE REPLACEMENTS, when the scrubs beat the pros at the end?

It could happen right? Oh wait nevermind that was just a movie, a work of fiction and fantasy.

IRL pay to win is life. It's true.

Tux77 · May 2021

I am 99% F2P and it’s impossible to keep up with the top scores. I agree the imbalance is at its most extreme gap in my over 4 years of playing. I have played both with and without money and it’s 2 totally different games now more then ever. Change is needed.

ATLAS-Z · May 2021

I'm starting to see the VP penalty as maybe the best solution, but with one small tweak.

Allow 2 to 5 tools, per mission, with No Penalty, and after that make it exponentially increase with each extra tool used?

So in essence, the new "clean play" would be no red gas used and less than 4 tools used per mission (as example)

Anjelos · May 2021

ATLAS-Z said:

I'm starting to see the VP penalty as maybe the best solution, but with one small tweak.

Allow 2 to 5 tools, per mission, with No Penalty, and after that make it exponentially increase with each extra tool used?

So in essence, the new "clean play" would be no red gas used and less than 4 tools used per mission (as example)

2-5 is still a lot xD maybe 1-2 without penalty would be fine i guess , more than 2 is tottal overkill .
Still prefer small punishment for any tool.
Imo , using 1-2 tools and loosing 5-10 vp , is less than redo in high sectors , cry me a river.
Overkilling though , will make people think again of doing levels they normally shouldn't. Still they get to buy the higher bonus from sector , but if they need 5 + tools for a mission , they deserve to get less points .

ATLAS-Z · May 2021

Ehhh I don't think so. I think there needs to be some leeway, a few tools no penalty. Encourage light tool usage.

For player peace of mind and for NG to not ignore this thread outright.

ATLAS-Z · May 2021

This would be a good spot for your first chime in @Lexia

Cheers

SnewfDiggity · May 2021

Could the tool penalty be that there’s a choice between starting a war, like in the distance. Hard (no tools allowed) regular rewards like we’re seeing now. Expert (tools allowed) way better rewards, cosmetic rewards, but only given to the first, second and third (or some sort of % by participation) system.

Firekid · May 2021

So my suggestions for sorting out the tools is a slight nerf. I know its not going to be very popular to start with but I think we need to rip the plaster off now before it gets even more ingrained and more tools are introduced. My suggestion is as follows.

Offensive Tools - Using one will be treated like using a regular attack. So standing still and using an offensive tool and that's the survivors turn over, or you can do a quick move and use a tool. To mitigate this nerf grenades damage increased by 10% and blast grenade damage increased by 15%. Both cooldowns reduced by 1.
Defensive/support tools - Using one of these will be the same as using a regular attack but you get a tactical movement afterward (like alpha after hitting a bodyshot). So you could quick move, use a medkit/flare/gore and get a further movement. To mitigate this nerf all cooldown timers are reduced by 1. (I would also like the ability to degore yourself when you want rather than having to either attack or wait the full 2 turns)

The way I see this is that you will still be able to use all the tools you've bought and as many as you like but only be able to use a maximum of 3 per turn and if you do use 3 in that turn then you are not going to be able to use a regular attack.
My hope is that this would bring back the tactical side of the game that has been missing since tools were introduced.

Yes you won't be able to use a grenade to charge sasha/assault and then root/stun something. Won't be able to throw a grenade, then blast, then a flare and then gore up all with one survivor.

I am sure NG will be bringing out new and inventive tools in the future and this needs to be resolved now before things get out of hand.

Lets make it harder for ourselves now so that we can enjoy the game for longer and allow NG to give us new tools to use which will still be balanced because you'll have to choose your tools and when to use them and when to charge up/retreat wisely.

There should be some maps which are incredibly difficult/impossible that you fear to attempt even with a full toolbag.

If you like this idea, please show your support by liking or agreeing below.

Thanks for reading!

Karajoca · May 2021

It's really sad when players start commenting how they are worried about game profit and claim that tool limit would lower it and affect game finances.

Can we also discuss in which crypto currencies is good to invest now since you become financial advisors?

Tool limit can actually INCREASE game profit if done correct, and enough room left for pay to win factor. Many people now choose not to buy ANY tools, because price is ridiculous, and even if you buy a bundle or two you are still ages behind some other players who can afford buying repeatedly. But if there is somewhat "more fair" rule and limit and you know, aha, with 10-20$ investment i can compete in this GW season - let's do it. That price is currently 100+$ per season if a player wants to be able to play all hardest missions.

I don't care if limit would mean island20 is impossible, its how it should be, imo, that only few players in the world (or nobody) are able to do it.

Current GW are nothing but a beauty contest where only few girls bought makeup and they are prettiest in many people's eyes, but their real beauty (a. k.a skill) is questionable or fake.

Limit tools so natural talents can compete

Karajoca · May 2021

I however pretty much agree with @Firekid nerf suggestion from above, as a possible solution, we just need to put a little, tiny cap on it (just in case) 😂😜

Mario_Romero · May 2021

I must say i was disappointed by @Fluxxx reaction in the other post saying that "endgamers don' want a toolcap so they won't do it. Apart from this not being a verifiable statement i believe it's also an irrelevant one because this statement is saying the game is broken but because - supposedly - endgamers like it broken we will not fix it.

That just makes no sense at all.

And that the game is broken is obvious. Let's not kid anyone, the game has always been p2w, and that's fine. But it used to be that other things like strategy, tactics, some insight also counted for something in narrowing the gap on some and closing it completely on some others.
Right now all those things mean exactly squat

I read here also a statement saying how terrible it would be if you couldn't complete island 20 because of the cap. But would it really be so bad?
Don't you remember the days going into a sector unsure of wether you were going to be able to finish it? It was an awful feeling when you couldn't. But it felt like a real achievement when you pulled it off.
These days there is no doubt you will finish the sector you start, the only uncertainty is how much it will cost you.
Where is the challenge in this? A lot of us enjoy the challenge this game offered trying to get a little better, do something you hadn't been able to do before.
What challenge is there today for endgamers? What is (near) impossible?

Now i don't think tools are the sole cause of this - the introduction of a host of OP weapons and heroes without increasing the difficulty of the game itself has also played it's part - but they are an important part of the equation.

Speaking for myself, and apart from the p2w discussion, i would like there to be something to achieve, something that i can't do by just throwing money at it as is the current state of affairs.

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