An idea to prevent burner guilds each season

ghost_pepperghost_pepper Member Posts: 1,185
edited July 2021 in Guild Wars Discussion
Problem
Some guilds that finish the season in master tier move their members into new guilds for the start of the next season. This circumvents the artificial ranking boost so that master tier guilds are fighting new or newb guilds and getting a couple very easy wins, which is not what was intended by NG. Obviously, NG failed to implement a solution to keep stronger guilds fighting each other and lesser performing guilds fighting each other.

Solution
Reward a guild starting at the beginning of a season with bonus reward points for that guilds performance the previous season. This is the exact same system currently in place with the Outpost so we are not reinventing the wheel. The value of the bonus reward at the start of the season exceeds what a burner guild would make crushing newbs between the true beginning start of zero in the ranking and the fixed starting point for a previous season master tier performing guild. 

Additionally
This benefits guilds which finish in the gold tier but avoid the master tier finish if they get a significant bonus and avoid fighting from the start the strongest guilds. This also benefits the newb guilds who do keep playing to whatever capacity they can and finish in silver tier because they start the next season out with any bonus at all. Do not scale these bonuses evenly! Example, 1500 rp for finishing previous season in silver tier, 1800 rp for finishing previous season in gold tier, 2000 rp for finishing previous season in master tier. Just an example, and this would benefit newb participation the most and incentivize master tier teams not to slaughter them. 

Further More
Change the scale of several reward items in the shop at both the top and the bottom of the purchasing scale. More rp moving into players spending ability means needing more rp moving out through the shop. If the radios unlock at master tier, move half of them at the same rp value to unlock at gold tier and keep the other half in master tier but in an increased amount. Do the same thing with the tokens on offer for the premium hero, make some of them available for the current rp price at gold tier and then more of them available for an increased rp price in master tier.

Conclusion
Effectively, NG will be paying free rp to master tier guilds to buy at a now increased price what they're going to buy anyway while keeping some groups from slaughtering newbs to do it more easily. The easy path of least resistance is what some are already taking. Pave the way for everyone at master tier to do it and make the numbers all even out along the way.

And for the umpteenth time, reduce the cost of 2nd and 3rd tier hero tokens as a benefit to developing players. Check your data on how many players from master tier guilds buy the tokens of the 2nd and 3rd tier heros. Most of us don't. Price them lower to incentivize the silver and gold tier guilds to pick them up as their players develop. Most of the low end of the shop sucks because things are "over priced" compared to the perceived buying power of the shop points as players experience them. This hurts players at the lower end of the game the most.

Here's some data to support that claim. 900 rp allows me to buy 300 hero tokens (x4 purchases at 225 rp each) or 2 gold components (x2 purchases at 450 rp each). In the black market I can buy a gold component for 350 gold, or x2 for 700 gold, making 900 rp = 700 gold. In the black market I can buy hero tokens for either 50 tokens for 150 gold or 100 tokens for 300 gold, totaling 300 tokens for 900 gold, making 300 tokens = both 900 gold and 900 rp. The gold buying power components in the black market is clearly the better deal. IMO, the gold components in the black market are over priced. While that's just me, it also means that the tokens in the gw shop ARE over priced relatively speaking. Your bean counters made everything even and while that pricing approach is admirable it's also wrong when subjectively certain heros are worth far less than others. Buying with free shop points is fine but the game has clearly moved away from certain heros.  And exactly what is available to purchase for the guilds who stay in silver tier? Ironically this is the first gw shop I can remember where every hero on offer is playable in the current meta. Cheap hunter daryl tokens would've paired nicely with the silent terminus rifle. 
FuriousMoldovanPasteBurmeliinisMuirnaVersysefragcandanceSeabee2018

Comments

  • ATLAS-ZATLAS-Z Member Posts: 6,761
    Hey man can you do a bullet point summary? That all sounded good but I couldn't make it through the whole thing so I'm not sure

     :p 


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    ShadowWalkerSilverhawkDeathwish19Elsbeth
  • ghost_pepperghost_pepper Member Posts: 1,185
    • Give guilds an rp bonus at the beginning of a season based upon that guilds previous seasons performance
    • Partially offset this with increased costs at master tier while making master tier stuff sort of available to gold tier
    • Decrease token costs at lowest level for lower tier heros (repeated theme of mine)
    • Communism for everyone
    ATLAS-ZShadowWalkerbrucewayne007FuriousMoldovanPasteSarge_MuirnaDeathwish19fragcandance
  • ATLAS-ZATLAS-Z Member Posts: 6,761
    I gave that an awesome except for the communism LOL

    Although technically I should be against this because it would make more strong players facing me at the beginning of the season

    But that would be selfish so I'll stick with my awesome


    #Zombrex (Neo / Horizon / (OG) / Genesis / Prime / Elite) 

    Are you Lost? Alone? Looking for a killer team to have your back?
    Join ZOMBREX! We have a tiered guild structure so players of every level and ambition can find a home they fit in.
    Remember, search ZOMBREX FAMILY. 
    Our page :
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    Send me a PM
    ShadowWalkerPasteDeathwish19
  • ghost_pepperghost_pepper Member Posts: 1,185
    The other solution is to have a special filter designed to sweep up newly created guilds packed with players and existing guilds with little to no involvement which suddenly experience a massive spike in membership and star performance. Take all those filtered groups and force them to play only each other and then only gold ranked opponents and up.
    ATLAS-ZPasteElsbethSeabee2018
  • FuriousMoldovanFuriousMoldovan Member Posts: 2,296
    edited July 2021
    Hey I agree with pretty much everything, but doubt that increased/tiered RP rewards will solve the problem entirely. There's not much in Guild Shop endgamers need anyways and current RPs is more than enough for GW gear and other stuff.

    Have to fix the root cause - GW Matchmaking.
    Instead of matching based on number of people in the team and guild tier +1/-1,  matching should be based on number of people in the team and cumulative average VPs of each person in the team +/-x for the previous 2 weeks (or previous season). Tied up to
    players, regardless of the guild. Problem solved.
    I doubt anyone will skip 2 week of GW or a season just to get matched against beginner guilds.
    @Lexia
    Leader of the original TWD guild family (est. 10/2015). We Are TWD 😎
    FuriousMoldovan's NML Glossary & Guild Wars Difficulty Guide
    PasteBurmeliinisMuirnaElsbethzeeblack
  • PastePaste Member Posts: 843
    edited July 2021
    How about disabling leaderboard functionality completely (individual and guild ones) for the first X weeks unless Y% of the guild participate in the specific game mode every week? Legitimate beginner guilds wouldn't be affected because they're not in the leaderboards anyway.

    For example, if 50% of the max amount of members (10 people) must participate for 8 weeks straight. That would be easy to uphold for most semi-active to active guilds who would normally be in the leaderboards.

    So those elite guilds abusing the system would bump themselves out of both the challenge and GW leader boards and become even more of a public joke than they currently are.
    If you want to get better at this game, join Discord and learn badge crafting and much more: https://discord.gg/cDhgv3AJ89
    ShadowWalkerFuriousMoldovanghost_pepper_Lily_MuirnaElsbeth
  • ghost_pepperghost_pepper Member Posts: 1,185
    OMG I laughed and coughed at the same time! And it hurt! Oh damn! Ahhhhh
    Elsbeth
  • FuriousMoldovanFuriousMoldovan Member Posts: 2,296
    @Lexia any thoughts on how to fix a broken GW matchmaking?
    Leader of the original TWD guild family (est. 10/2015). We Are TWD 😎
    FuriousMoldovan's NML Glossary & Guild Wars Difficulty Guide
  • pollorexpollorex Member Posts: 261
    edited July 2021
    2 thing

    1) over priced is next game is their firm, 50 gold for a radio calls

    1 gold 800 box or more if you are missing one and etc

    2 NG have all our points for GW so if you have a score is so high or you move from a master guild they can find out

    So the solution can be make a ranking of GW point and a sistem that if you pass that level need more RP to buy the items ( per player not guild)

    A master reset can get all the rewards but a 0 guild can't not.

    So guild have to come from a least silver tier to get the max reward



  • HellnightHellnight Member Posts: 175
    ghost_pepper said:
    Problem
    Some guilds that finish the season in master tier move their members into new guilds for the start of the next season. This circumvents the artificial ranking boost so that master tier guilds are fighting new or newb guilds and getting a couple very easy wins, which is not what was intended by NG. Obviously, NG failed to implement a solution to keep stronger guilds fighting each other and lesser performing guilds fighting each other.

    Solution
    Reward a guild starting at the beginning of a season with bonus reward points for that guilds performance the previous season. This is the exact same system currently in place with the Outpost so we are not reinventing the wheel. The value of the bonus reward at the start of the season exceeds what a burner guild would make crushing newbs between the true beginning start of zero in the ranking and the fixed starting point for a previous season master tier performing guild. 

    Additionally
    This benefits guilds which finish in the gold tier but avoid the master tier finish if they get a significant bonus and avoid fighting from the start the strongest guilds. This also benefits the newb guilds who do keep playing to whatever capacity they can and finish in silver tier because they start the next season out with any bonus at all. Do not scale these bonuses evenly! Example, 1500 rp for finishing previous season in silver tier, 1800 rp for finishing previous season in gold tier, 2000 rp for finishing previous season in master tier. Just an example, and this would benefit newb participation the most and incentivize master tier teams not to slaughter them. 

    Further More
    Change the scale of several reward items in the shop at both the top and the bottom of the purchasing scale. More rp moving into players spending ability means needing more rp moving out through the shop. If the radios unlock at master tier, move half of them at the same rp value to unlock at gold tier and keep the other half in master tier but in an increased amount. Do the same thing with the tokens on offer for the premium hero, make some of them available for the current rp price at gold tier and then more of them available for an increased rp price in master tier.

    Conclusion
    Effectively, NG will be paying free rp to master tier guilds to buy at a now increased price what they're going to buy anyway while keeping some groups from slaughtering newbs to do it more easily. The easy path of least resistance is what some are already taking. Pave the way for everyone at master tier to do it and make the numbers all even out along the way.

    And for the umpteenth time, reduce the cost of 2nd and 3rd tier hero tokens as a benefit to developing players. Check your data on how many players from master tier guilds buy the tokens of the 2nd and 3rd tier heros. Most of us don't. Price them lower to incentivize the silver and gold tier guilds to pick them up as their players develop. Most of the low end of the shop sucks because things are "over priced" compared to the perceived buying power of the shop points as players experience them. This hurts players at the lower end of the game the most.

    Here's some data to support that claim. 900 rp allows me to buy 300 hero tokens (x4 purchases at 225 rp each) or 2 gold components (x2 purchases at 450 rp each). In the black market I can buy a gold component for 350 gold, or x2 for 700 gold, making 900 rp = 700 gold. In the black market I can buy hero tokens for either 50 tokens for 150 gold or 100 tokens for 300 gold, totaling 300 tokens for 900 gold, making 300 tokens = both 900 gold and 900 rp. The gold buying power components in the black market is clearly the better deal. IMO, the gold components in the black market are over priced. While that's just me, it also means that the tokens in the gw shop ARE over priced relatively speaking. Your bean counters made everything even and while that pricing approach is admirable it's also wrong when subjectively certain heros are worth far less than others. Buying with free shop points is fine but the game has clearly moved away from certain heros.  And exactly what is available to purchase for the guilds who stay in silver tier? Ironically this is the first gw shop I can remember where every hero on offer is playable in the current meta. Cheap hunter daryl tokens would've paired nicely with the silent terminus rifle. 
    You're crazy??? It is scientifically proven that NG suffers from panic attacks and convulsions when he must give as a prize for passing a round the incredible prize of 4 Jerry tokens, and now you want them to give balanced prizes for war to the guilds? 🤣🤣🤣🤣 (It is a cruel comment but for laugh together)
    The problem is that it never compensates for the expense of time and supplies, less at high levels where you need amounts of tools so high that they make you laugh.
    It is not a problem of this game only, when they began to test these game trading methods (the first test was the "Age of Empires" expansions), several warned, but bad players of skill but with purchasing power They spent whatever it took to feel like "winners."
    This can no longer be fixed my brother, even if you put the best intentions on it, it cannot be fixed ...

  • ATLAS-ZATLAS-Z Member Posts: 6,761
    edited August 2021
    Simplest solution is to put the matchmaking back how it was everyone starts in bronze

    New season clean-slate everyone on equal footing just like any other competition


    #Zombrex (Neo / Horizon / (OG) / Genesis / Prime / Elite) 

    Are you Lost? Alone? Looking for a killer team to have your back?
    Join ZOMBREX! We have a tiered guild structure so players of every level and ambition can find a home they fit in.
    Remember, search ZOMBREX FAMILY. 
    Our page :
    https://m.facebook.com/Zombrex2015/

    Send me a PM
    Shezza10anniesprinkles
  • FuriousMoldovanFuriousMoldovan Member Posts: 2,296
    @Lexia would be great to hear NG's feedback on GW matchmaking:

    https://forums.nextgames.com/walkingdead/discussion/comment/441511/#Comment_441511
    Leader of the original TWD guild family (est. 10/2015). We Are TWD 😎
    FuriousMoldovan's NML Glossary & Guild Wars Difficulty Guide
    Elsbeth
  • n00bn00b Member Posts: 83
    ghost_pepper said:
    • Give guilds an rp bonus at the beginning of a season based upon that guilds previous seasons performance
    • Partially offset this with increased costs at master tier while making master tier stuff sort of available to gold tier
    • Decrease token costs at lowest level for lower tier heros (repeated theme of mine)
    • Communism for everyone
    RPs won't motivate not to switch guilds, in burner guild you can get more RPs from wining bonus and also spent less tools/RPs to buy tools/gold/time. Furthermore, guild shop is getting worse and worse within each season.

    NG can introduce guild levels, similar to supports. Guild upgrade tokens can be earned from guild wars/challenge leaderboards. The higher guild level, the better bonuses players will have, for example, depending on level they can have healing/upgrade times reduced by {0} minutes. This will motivate to stay and upgrade one guild instead of switching guilds.
    miori199373
  • FuriousMoldovanFuriousMoldovan Member Posts: 2,296
    Or they can tie up matchmaking to player's average VPs, the way I suggested previously.
    That way no matter what guild you're in, matching will be based on player's skills, not guild rank. They already collect this data anyways.

    https://forums.nextgames.com/walkingdead/discussion/comment/441511/#Comment_441511
    Leader of the original TWD guild family (est. 10/2015). We Are TWD 😎
    FuriousMoldovan's NML Glossary & Guild Wars Difficulty Guide
  • ElsbethElsbeth Member Posts: 160
    I’m not sure what y’all said.  Heady and thoughtful for sure. Did you say the following?  If so, sorry.

    From my coaching high school perspective, After NML does their matchmaking, Week 1 = as is.  Winners are created, loosers are created. Week 2= Matchmaking + winners of week 1 play winners and losers of week 1 play losers. Week 3= Matchmaking + week2 winners play winners, and week 2 loosers play loosers. Same week 4.  Kinda like the playoff games and the top teams will be playing tops teams for bragging rights while the newbies, and middle tier teams can win, some of the time.
    Zardox
  • PastePaste Member Posts: 843
    It's similar to my suggestion :) Just be careful now you define "new". They could cycle through the same burner guilds to prevent that. It also wouldn't solve the issue for guilds that don't compete for rank, but for easy rewards (neither did my suggestion). But I think those are fewer and not as big of a problem.
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  • ATLAS-ZATLAS-Z Member Posts: 6,761
    ATLAS-Z said:
    Simplest solution is to put the matchmaking back how it was everyone starts in bronze

    New season clean-slate everyone on equal footing just like any other competition

    Oh this guy had the best idea I think. 

    BRONZE FOR ALL


    #Zombrex (Neo / Horizon / (OG) / Genesis / Prime / Elite) 

    Are you Lost? Alone? Looking for a killer team to have your back?
    Join ZOMBREX! We have a tiered guild structure so players of every level and ambition can find a home they fit in.
    Remember, search ZOMBREX FAMILY. 
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    Send me a PM
  • PastePaste Member Posts: 843
    It will for us, but not so sure about the beginner guilds complaining about losing every battle before.
    If you want to get better at this game, join Discord and learn badge crafting and much more: https://discord.gg/cDhgv3AJ89
  • ATLAS-ZATLAS-Z Member Posts: 6,761
    Paste said:
    It will for us, but not so sure about the beginner guilds complaining about losing every battle before.

    Only in week 1, after that the stronger guilds will have moved on


    #Zombrex (Neo / Horizon / (OG) / Genesis / Prime / Elite) 

    Are you Lost? Alone? Looking for a killer team to have your back?
    Join ZOMBREX! We have a tiered guild structure so players of every level and ambition can find a home they fit in.
    Remember, search ZOMBREX FAMILY. 
    Our page :
    https://m.facebook.com/Zombrex2015/

    Send me a PM
  • pollorexpollorex Member Posts: 261
    Middle guild love the just one rank down cuz they can get gold 3 or 2 restarting to bronze that's impossible 
  • FuriousMoldovanFuriousMoldovan Member Posts: 2,296
    FuriousMoldovan said:
    ...matching should be based on number of people in the team and cumulative average VPs of each person in the team +/-x for the previous 2 weeks (or previous season). Tied up to
    players, regardless of the guild. Problem solved.
    I doubt anyone will skip 2 week of GW or a season just to get matched against beginner guilds.
    @Lexia
    ↑ this is literally the simplest fix without changing tiers, etc.
    They already have this data available.
    Leader of the original TWD guild family (est. 10/2015). We Are TWD 😎
    FuriousMoldovan's NML Glossary & Guild Wars Difficulty Guide
  • avelardezavelardez Member Posts: 1,341
    Not sure who goes through the hassle of burner guilds. But I jump around all the time with guilds and I play big and small. I don’t seem to have that problem. I get high points regardless. I prefer to win but still get what’s needed to buy out the shop. So the point is to learn the teams to use and go hard or don’t go at all. 
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